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Talking about music, is like talking about paintings - you can get the idea, but it's not until you actually hear / see it that you fully apprecaite it.

What is the chance of some people posting audio clips to accompany some of the methods discussed.

It can sometimes be a bit much to take in just by reading, but when you actually hear it, things fall into place and you get more of an appreciation of what is being discussed, this is my own personal opinion anyway!

Mate that shit is quality i am just at the stage in learning what all the chords are and why etc so the second bit of advice was perfect. I know ow that a chord prog needs to ultimately end on the 1st or the 5th etc so things like the dim chord are nice to resolve the story/bar ITS WICKED,

Oh and bump the thread dont let this baby go to waste!

But how should that diminished b chord be handled when using a natural minor? It might be able to give a nice uplifting feel after Am?

Personally I think that the foul harmonic minor is too sad for generic trance!

Here are some examples of trance melodies I promised:

Here is a trance melody with bad voice leading and unresolved dissonances. Can you fix keeping the 'melody' mostly same? Or should it be fixed at all?

[Lamer's adagio for strings]
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/l...for_strings.mp3
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/l..._for_string.mid

Another melody with melody and bass. I was unable to make anything from this piece. There was some discussion if the one off scale note is appropriate or not?

[offensive supersaw demo1]
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/o...rsaw_demo_1.mp3
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/supersaw1.mid

Two voices again?
[Offensive supersaw demo 2]
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/o...rsaw_demo_2.mp3
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/homohuor1.mid

Attemp to make 'heroic' sounding trance is resembling he-man. :u
Beware the drums are horrendous.

[HE-MAN is my man]
http://minagi.hybridi.net/saippua/heman_is_my_man.mp3

If you want, you can try to making something from them. But I want my share of fame and profits. [

If you have a diminished chord it be best to resolve it. The simplest way I can explain resolving a diminished chord is by moving up a step. That assumes that say you're in the scale C major and you are on the diminished chord, B diminished. Well B diminished really wants to go to C major, and the better the voice leading the smoother it will sound.

In minor it's a little differern't. Say you are in Aminor, and you're B diminished. Well you could go to C major but it's gonna sound like you changed keys because the movement of diminished to up a step is a major diatonic sequence. Remember what I said earlier, the ii*(diminished 2) is a sub-dominated function chord and in this case B diminished is the ii* of A minor. So you'd want to go to a dominate function chord, and there is only one dominate function chord in minor, thats the V (even though it is naturally a minor chord diatonically, you're aloud to raise the 3rd of the chord to make it major). Then once on V you can move to i.

Once you understand where and what chords naturally pull to what other chords then you can start do do things like using pivot chords and secondary chords (you should be afraid of these, because that is high level shit).

So, ask me a theory question I probably can answer it.

Ok I will share my knowledge.

There are 12 keys.

5 are black and 7 are white.
For some reason the black ones usually sound cooler
but you still need the white ones because you'll run out of
melodies too quickly.

They all make different sounds, and theres really only 12 (despite what it may seem like on the keyboard with all the octaves)

If you are trying to find a melody, the best way is to start playing keys like you see professionals doing on MTVs music awards or w/e. Just keep hitting keys and walah!
You'll find something cool.

Memorize key and move on. Here sound in your head than continue to find keys as melody grows in your mind. This is my "i have no idea what 90% of the people in this thread are talking about" knowledge.

I can write a tutorial too if people like. I have other little stupid tricks that work, like whisteling tunes into melodyne and defining the pitch.

Lol @ robby top post

Frost this is real sound of you to be doin this Im currently on a break from my uni music course over the holidays and my theory teacher said that I am lagging behing a little with the rest of the group because Im a producer everyone else on course is a musician guitar etc

Since ur second post I started like learning things by going from one chord to another but in like the way you said and its nice now im inverting things and stuff and its gettin more enjoyable writing again.

Ok so if just using standard 1 4 5 4 2 3 1 prog is boring how can we spice it up? These second chords tell me tell me!

Oh and I heard that some really moody sequences can be made using Ionian mode WTF IS THIS?

ok I been doing my own research books and stuff and I can contribute something nice and easy!

Where chords can go!

I (Tonic) Can be followed by any chord
II (Supertonic) Can be followed by V,III,IV,VI, OR VII
III (Mediant) Can be followed by VI,IV,II,V
IV (Subdominant) Can be followed by V,I,VI,II,VII
V (Dominant) Can be followed by I,VI,III,VII
VI (Submediant) Can be followed by II,V,IV,III
VII (Seventh) Can be followed by I,VI,III,V

So as long as you know what I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII Are in your scale you can use the above to experiment with where to go next!

This theory shit is really helpful sitting with the chart i just did at my keyboard everytime I was like "oh, wow, OMG didnt know that"

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Oh and I heard that some really moody sequences can be made using Ionian mode WTF IS THIS?

Ionian mode is basically same as normal eh major key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_mode

However according to some sources it isnt 100% same as normal major. I also would like to know whats the difference.

lol i understand this wasnt very helpful reply.

These musical modes are very interesting!

Many goa/psy trance pieces are using phygrian mode (all white keys starting from e). It may sound like traditional spanish bull fighter music.

Lydian mode (all white keys starting from f) is very beautiful and sounds blissfull and dreamy but is a bit hard to use (imho). You should listen some piano music music by erik satie.

Dorian mode (all white keys from d) sounds melancholic? That some scottish folk song called greensleeves or whatever?

quote:

Originally posted by offensive_newbi Ionian mode is basically same as normal eh major key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_mode However according to some sources it isnt 100% same as normal major. I also would like to know whats the difference. lol i understand this wasnt very helpful reply. These musical modes are very interesting! Many goa/psy trance pieces are using phygrian mode (all white keys starting from e). It may sound like traditional spanish bull fighter music. Lydian mode (all white keys starting from f) is very beautiful and sounds blissfull and dreamy but is a bit hard to use (imho). You should listen some piano music music by erik satie. Dorian mode (all white keys from d) sounds melancholic? That some scottish folk song called greensleeves or whatever?

Also I would like to warn you that all those chords and where they can go doesnt neccesarily apply to trance.

quote:

Originally posted by offensive_newbi Also I would like to warn you that all those chords and where they can go doesnt neccesarily apply to trance.

See i dont get that? I didnt think there was a trance music specific theory. I mean there must be trends and popular ways of doing things but surely I lifted these chord things from an academic theory book on harmony.

These must at least be harmonic? it says they are in the book!

Modes are a normal scale but have a different tonic. That means you start the scale or play the scale around a note different than the usual root note.

Just explain that a little so take c major for example?

D would become root note? if you move up one?

So the I (1ST) chord in c major in ________ Mode would be D,F,A

I think a c major scale using D as the tonic is Dorian, but it has been a very long time since I cared about theory, so I might be wrong.

I think trance music and music theory can go very well with each-other. I'm willing to bet that the coolest melodies you hear are ones that use theory. Cause the really interesting shit is hard to figure out by ear. I doubt you're gonna accidentally stumble onto a pivot chord or a secondary dominate.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Where chords can go! I (Tonic) Can be followed by any chord II (Supertonic) Can be followed by V,III,IV,VI, OR VII III (Mediant) Can be followed by VI,IV,II,V IV (Subdominant) Can be followed by V,I,VI,II,VII V (Dominant) Can be followed by I,VI,III,VII VI (Submediant) Can be followed by II,V,IV,III VII (Seventh) Can be followed by I,VI,III,V "

It looks more like this,
I/i (Tonic) Can be followed by any chord
ii*/ii (Supertonic) Can be followed by IV/iv,V,vii*
iii/III (Mediant) Can be followed by VI/vi,IV,I/i
IV/iv (Subdominant) Can be followed by V,I/i,
V (Dominant) Can be followed by I/i,VI/vi
VI/vi (Submediant) Can be followed by ii/ii*,VII/vii*,IV/iv
VII/vii* (leadingtone) Can be followed by I/i

It's important that you get the cases right cause that means a lot. It shows that you are talking minor and major. Cause you don't want all your chords to be in the same quality (IE all in major or all in minor). That's where the beauty comes in is switching the qualities around. If a track is in a minor key, that doesn't mean all the chords in that tune are gonna be minor.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Ok so if just using standard 1 4 5 4 2 3 1 prog is boring how can we spice it up? These second chords tell me tell me!

Okay secondary chords are a bit hard to grasp at first, but they are the most awesome thing in music.

You're progression, i iv V iv ii* III i. First off, you shouldn't end your progression with a III to i. I'm gonna change it to V i instead of III i. Anyway, let's add some secondary chords. We need to know what key we're in, let's say A minor.

So, that progression translate to this: A minor, D minor, E major, D minor, B diminished, E major, A minor.

Okay so first you gotta understand cadence and dominate functionally. I'll give you the crash course. V goes to I/i, take my word for it.

So what if we used that to our advantage? Well notice how I ended our progression with V i, that's a cadence because it sounds like it belongs. Just take my word for it. The V of A minor is E major...

Well what if before we got to that chord we used the V of V to add a extra pulling sensation. Let's move over to the key of E major temporary. And now let's just for a moment make E major the tonic or I. What is that V of E? It's B major. Now that we have that lets stick it in our chord progression.

A minor, D minor, E major, D minor, B diminished, B Major, E major, A minor.

The motion from B major to E major is really strong cause we "borrowed' a V-I cadences from another key, that's why it's called secondary. The effect becomes even stronger if we make that chord dominate7th.

A minor, D minor, E major, D minor, B diminished, B Major Dominate, E major, A minor.

How do you make a chord dominate7th? Add a 4th note. So you'd just stick a "A" in your B Major chord to give it a Dominate 7th sound.

Wow, I talked for a long time, and that was like 2 years worth of theory knowledge so it may sound like UHehkluetiharhiurureajhkregakhljr. I hope you liked it.

I like helping ppl learn music theory cause i truly think it makes our music sound better.

Ok I almost get you I know about cadences they are perfect imperfect interupted and summit else right v to i, iv to i etc?

How can we borrow a chord from another key Ill break down how i try to understand tell me if I am wrong.


So this is in A minor right? so the V is E major? now using that as a scale and taking the V from E major scale we can steal a cadence from another key E major? And because E major is the dominant chord in our a minor key it sounds nice right?

Ok im getting well f***ed off with this whole chord thing.

For example I thought the 7th chord was diminished in scales? so how in this example is the ii* diminished?

Why does the 3rd chord in A Minor sound shite? C,E,G# Right?

I cant get to the III from any other chord in A minor without it sounding off?

Why if you try to do this theory stuff and write a chord sequence in c major keeping it simple does it sound boring but then when you just forget the theory and mess about with the keys can you get much more interesting results?

If you are in the key of C major then you can only use white keys yes? So why sometimes a chord with a black key or two sounds nice with it?

If you sharpen the fifth making a chord augmented in C major It would have a black key in. Is it still in C major?

Is there a way of working these things out that i am missing?

Find me on AIM,

SN = Dustsoft.

I can help you out, but we'd need to talk more directly. You're starting to ask pretty big questions. Which there are answers to.

The reason why I wanna help is because the more ppl that know theory, the better our music will sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Frost-RAVEN The reason why I wanna help is because the more ppl that know theory, the better our music will sound.

Why not post here? it makes for interesting reading, but its like reading a book thats just getting to a good bit and then ends! lol, so it would be nice if you two / three was to carry on here and share your knowledge with us mere mortals (speaking for myself anyway! hehe)

Thanks!

Yeah we will continue here im sure but Frosdt did give me a lesson on aim and a midi fiel or two which really helped.

Frost see if you can explain going out of scale to spice things up a bit better people are obviously listening!

The threads had over 1000 reads!

It's all a little over my head at the moment, but as I progress this thread will make for good cross-referencing.

Thing is, I'm sorta jumping to topics that are really advanced. Like teaching chord progressions is one thing, but if you don't know voice leading, then it's kinda useless.

Well here is voice leading stuff.

All that voice leading means is inverting chords around to make progressions sound good. It's common for chords to be written in four parts. You could say Soprano alto tennor bass. We call this four part writing. Now four parts? But chords have only three notes? Yeah well you double one of those notes, and there is a whole section about section about which notes to double and when. (yeah peeps, theory guys thought about this shit pretty hard). Though you don't have to do four parts, three is just fine. And as far as inverting goes with chord progressions, you want the following chord to be smoothly voice lead.

What's voice leading again? Well lets call the notes voices from now on. You don't want the voices to jump to far or cross over each other, think of them as their own little melody line. You probably can google search "good voice leading" and maybe find some good stuff.

Bottomline, good voice leading is needed to make your chords flow together nicely.

Anything else I should go over?

okay so secondary chords are kinda crazy.

I asked the wiki for help...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_dominant

I can probably explain any questions that this article causes.

Oh also, google search Neapolitan chord (hehehehe).

I think i am going to take the plunge and start learning music theory now that i am getting my midi keyboard friday.

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