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-- Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192
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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes, because in war proportionism is somehow relevant...

HRMMM...

Yea, it is actually. There are laws to war.

Though technically this probably falls under a "police action."

Either way you look at it Israel is acting as a legitimate nation state and should follow the same laws that everyone else has to. They want to be a part of the world community then they better act like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby HRMMM... Yea, it is actually. There are laws to war. Though technically this probably falls under a "police action." Either way you look at it Israel is acting as a legitimate nation state and should follow the same laws that everyone else has to. They want to be a part of the world community then they better act like it.

So Hamas is somehow exempt from this?

I'm not saying I agree with any of this however who in their right mind would think that the IDF wouldn't respond at some point after 100 rockets in the previous 48 hours before the consequence hammer came down? Honestly...

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Yea, it is actually. There are laws to war.

no, there isn't actually. whatever laws you are referring to or any other LOAC do not make distinctions on proportionality.

if anything it's the opposite, as LOAC's dictate wars should be brought to an end as quickly as possible.

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Originally posted by The17sss haha... you're totally taking the Hamas bait exactly as they want. If Canada or the U.S. or England or whoever was getting hit with rockets from a neighboring country, INDESCRIMINATLY dropping into civillian areas, what do you think would happen? So what if 200 people have been killed in one day... Israel is at least specifically targeting Hamas and being as surgical in nature as they can be; Hamas has been asking for this and is trying to get sympathy from all over the world, especially from naive fools like yourself, and play the victim. You think they Israel should count the exact number of rockets and send the exact same amount back "to be fair"? Think about it... if Canada launched about 200 rockets into Detroit, regardless of the number of people they killed, the U.S. would have the right to hit back as necessary.

You are the one being a fuckin fool here blindly supporting the unjustified Isreali actions.

You actually believe answering fire with more fire is the way to response?so what you think Hamas will just sit back and stop these attacks?


You seem to forget the type of conditions the people in Gaza are living under.For the most part they have no water or fuel or any supply of(or barely enough)medicine since Isreal is always blocking the boarders.
These people are fedup and the worlds seems to be doing fuck all to help them out.

quote:

This about sums it up... deal with it----> "Hamas made it clear last week that they wanted war. They announced the end of the so-called truce, although as the 16th paragraph in this report finally makes clear, Hamas and other affiliated groups had never stopped attacking Israel. They want to provoke a wider war and hope to get Egypt involved. The Egyptians opened the border to provide emergency medical care to the wounded and condemned the attack, but have not broken diplomatic relations with Israel yet over the attack.

This whole thing reminds of when Isreal decided to go on a full on war with Lebenon not too long ago over one fuckin captured soldier and they ended up leveling the entire country.

quote:

The world should step aside and quit interfering in the war Hamas so desperately wants and will desperately lose if left to their own devices. As long as Hamas controls Gaza, a state of war exists, and cease-fires do nothing to advance peace, as this year has proven yet again. Tiresome calls for "restraint" don't work when one side is determined to have war. The best way to resolve this conflict is to allow Hamas to have its war and get utterly crushed by Israel or overthrown by Gazans to avoid that unavoidable conclusion. Right and let millions die because of a few Hamas fighters? good one... I never thought you would be such a big fan of wars but it is now clear to me that what it comes to world conflicts your first solution is full out war. [quote]Hamas insists on a war of annihilation and won't accept any other solution. Let them have it."

Fine so let them have proper military fundings like the way Isreal gets all of their fundings from the U.S and then we ll have fair game.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer This whole thing reminds of when Isreal decided to go on a full on war with Lebenon not too long ago over one fuckin captured soldier and they ended up leveling the entire country.

yeah, and you haven't heard a peep from them the last two and a half years have you?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r So Hamas is somehow exempt from this?

So you recognize Hamas as a legitimate government and a state actor?

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Originally posted by Q5echo no, there isn't actually. whatever laws you are referring to or any other LOAC do not make distinctions on proportionality. if anything it's the opposite, as LOAC's dictate wars should be brought to an end as quickly as possible.

Alright, so Russia was just in their response to Georgia this summer as well?

I mean alls fair right... Those Georgians killed a couple "Russians" so Russia can invade and take over half the country and aide and arm the rebel groups there?

You guys havent seen nothing yet. Israel's moves are backed by the governments of the US and Egypt. Livni was in Cairo on Friday, a day before the attacks, and on Saturday Egypt put the blame on the situation solely on Hamas. It was Hamas that decided last week not to renew the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Israel.
The same response has been coming out of Washington - Hamas is being blamed for what's happened, and the US stands firmly behind Israel. Obama's response to this situation has also so far been less then minimal.

If you people actually care about the people of Gaza, those so-called innocent civilians, then you'll put pressure on Hamas.

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Originally posted by Q5echo Hamas' very existence is predicated on war and acts of war. by your own logic Hamas should be firing rockets across the border into Egypt as well. what are Palestinians supposed to do? reject war.

Hamas was formed in the midst of what Israeli minister of Economics and Finance, Gad Ya'acobi, called "a creeping process of de facto annexation", which included extra-judicial killings, mass detentions, house demolitions, deportations, and so on (Ackerman, P and Duvall, A: "A Force More Powerful: A Century of Nonviolent Conflict", page 403. St. Martin's Press, 2000). The Israeli state apparatus carried out contradictory and conflicting policies that injured Israel's own interests such as the closing of education establishments (putting more youths onto the streets) and issuing the Shin Bet list of collaborators. In 1989, local committees in Beit Sahour initiated a nonviolence movement to withhold taxes, taking up the slogan "No Taxation Without Representation," the legality of which under international law is disputed. The Israeli defense minister Yitzhak Rabin response was: "We will teach them there is a price for refusing the laws of Israel." When time in prison did not stop the activists, Israel crushed the boycott by imposing heavy fines while seizing and disposing the equipment, furnishings, and goods from local stores, factories, and homes.

I know, I know. The Palestinians are just supposed to accept their humiliation...and by that, your statement...Hamas' very existence is predicated on war and acts of war...is hypocritically laughable...

And you want to talk about Egypt huh? Another reason why Muslims are so pissed off at us. We support their dictatorships. So much for freedom. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan...Such freedom loving regimes huh?

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles You guys havent seen nothing yet. Israel's moves are backed by the governments of the US and Egypt. Livni was in Cairo on Friday, a day before the attacks, and on Saturday Egypt put the blame on the situation solely on Hamas. It was Hamas that decided last week not to renew the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Israel. The same response has been coming out of Washington - Hamas is being blamed for what's happened, and the US stands firmly behind Israel. Obama's response to this situation has also so far been less then minimal. If you people actually care about the people of Gaza, those so-called innocent civilians, then you'll put pressure on Hamas.

Egypt? You mean the right wing dictatorship of Mubarak, who cares not of the will of his people? Oh that Egypt. And what cease fire? You mean, the cease fire where the Palestinians have to accept humiliation, while Israel continues it's illegal blockade? Oh that cease fire. Who really gives a fuck about what the US thinks nowadays? We've already fucked that up with our tryst in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King 16 israelis killed in about a decade from rockets 225 Palestinians killed by israeli missiles in ONE DAY. Disgusting

But that won't stop the Hamas from firing MORE rockets from schools and hospitals just so Israel can retaliate and then dumbasses all over America and Europe can scream "Israel is killing Israel is killing." What's disgusting is the Hamas put themselves in this position. They KNEW Israel would retaliate but they fired rockets anyway.

In 2011 news, the first nuclear bomb was used since world war 2 on gaza strip after Hamas fired 300 Roman candles, damaging about 5 square meters of agricultural land.

but hey, proportionism is not relevant, so life is a bitch.

LOL so now Israel goes same way as Russia in Georgia, and the US supports it.

what a damn Christmas joke.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Alright, so Russia was just in their response to Georgia this summer as well? I mean alls fair right... Those Georgians killed a couple "Russians" so Russia can invade and take over half the country and aide and arm the rebel groups there?

That's actually a superb example. Thanks for bringing it up.

How many of you were "up in arms" about Russia putting down a Georgian provocation? But here you're actually understanding of Israel's actions.

Zionist filth.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd That's actually a superb example. Thanks for bringing it up. How many of you were "up in arms" about Russia putting down a Georgian provocation? But here you're actually understanding of Israel's actions.

Exactly! Q5echo, this might not be exactly the same sentiment, but very similar.

On the issue of comparing the US invasion of Iraq to the Russian invasion of Georgia you agreed that there is a difference in moral equivalency.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo quote: Originally posted by The17sss Did the Russians go to the UN Security Council and show where the Georgians had violated 14 resolutions? Did they spend a year and a half jawing with the French and others to try to get us some assistance so that we could go in and enforce UN resolutions that Saddam Hussein had broken or that the Georgians in this case? No. There is no parallel whatsoever. There's no moral equivalence, but leave it to the blame America first people to come up with it. +1

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=26#post9079330

That you agree in condemnation of Russia for their unilateral and heavy actions but allow Israel to pursue unilateral and relatively larger action against Hamas inside the Gaza Strip appears as a double standard to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby So you recognize Hamas as a legitimate government and a state actor?

I recognize that they were elected but as far as acting 'governmental' they are far from it.
No other government in the real world would get away with what they do get away with.
I don't know how else to describe them other than Israel's bad brother (I hope that made sense)...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I recognize that they were elected but as far as acting 'governmental' they are far from it. No other government in the real world would get away with what they do get away with. I don't know how else to describe them other than Israel's bad brother (I hope that made sense)...

The US government has got away with that they did, so what?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I recognize that they were elected but as far as acting 'governmental' they are far from it. No other government in the real world would get away with what they do get away with. I don't know how else to describe them other than Israel's bad brother (I hope that made sense)...

Then the expectations of a nation state do not exactly apply to them and they do not receive the full responsibility of being on the world stage, nor do they receive the benefits of it either.

Israel is a member of the global community and should act in accordance with the accepted idea of responsible use of force.

quote:

Originally posted by otec The US government has got away with that they did, so what?

This is out of scope to the current argument...

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer You actually believe answering fire with more fire is the way to response?so what you think Hamas will just sit back and stop these attacks?

Yes, if you want to consider it a "war" then if one side wants to win, answering with fire and in an overpowering way is pretty much required.

quote:

You seem to forget the type of conditions the people in Gaza are living under.For the most part they have no water or fuel or any supply of(or barely enough)medicine since Isreal is always blocking the boarders. These people are fedup and the worlds seems to be doing fuck all to help them out.

The ball is in Hamas' court to change this for the good of "their people". Instead, they want to provoke what they knew would eventually happen. Why do you think the world is doing fuck all about it? The way to broker peace and help the people you govern is not to loft rockets into civillian towns and cancel an agreed upon cease fire.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Then the expectations of a nation state do not exactly apply to them and they do not receive the full responsibility of being on the world stage, nor do they receive the benefits of it either. Israel is a member of the global community and should act in accordance with the accepted idea of responsible use of force.

Yes, but in this instance where Israel is forced to deal with an entity that does not follow global rules of engagement, Israel can only deal with it the best they can without handcuffing themselves.
We're talking about a county with their back constantly against the wall because the others surrounding them, don't play by, 'the rules'.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby That you agree in condemnation of Russia for their unilateral and heavy actions but allow Israel to pursue unilateral and relatively larger action against Hamas inside the Gaza Strip appears as a double standard to me.

It was just different man... In a very simplistic explanation, Georgia did not break an agreed upon cease fire and launch a bunch of rockets into civillian Russian towns. If that happened, fucking A I'd be totally supportive of Russia turning Georgia into a parking lot. It was a matter between Georgian police/soldiers and Russian (so called) peacekeepers that got out of hand inside the borders of Georgia.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss It was just different man... In a very simplistic explanation, Georgia did not break an agreed upon cease fire and launch a bunch of rockets into civillian Russian towns. If that happened, fucking A I'd be totally supportive of Russia turning Georgia into a parking lot. It was a matter between Georgian police/soldiers and Russian (so called) peacekeepers that got out of hand inside the borders of Georgia.

Actually thats EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Georgian forces vied to take back South Ossetia, launching hundreds of rockets into and around Tskhinvali.

There were Russians there, and the Ossetians consider themselves Russians as well and Russia decided to act on that.

Is there ever going to be a solution to this mess?

It's such a shame that countless civilians have to pay with their lives for this. 250+ dead now, and it will have solved NOTHING.

For 4000 years the people of Israel have been fighting wars, it's truly sad that things there are in the same barbaric state they were in the days of the old testament.

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