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-- Can you really "learn" to write *great* music just by working hard at it?
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quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles ^ Maybe music is like language --

I believe that this is the key.... It is all about learning, people can say that you could be born with it but, did they know you your whole life? Do they know the trials and tribulations you went through to get where you are or are not?

I was about to give up like a year ago, then one day I decided you know what, I'm gonna stop being so damn lazy and learn some music theory, and so I did, I have studied, made my self charts of musical keys on my desktop, now everytime I make a track, I make myself learn a new scale everytime.

And also, you can't just go in the studio and expect it to just happen, usually the best comes when your emotions were just enlightened or you are sad, you have more feeling so you put more feeling into what you are trying to achieve, and this can be true for anything you try to accomplish.

If you have this feeling like you should be making music and that's what your life is about, then try your hardest not to ever give up, and keep trying harder. If you get so far, then say, "oh man, its not up to the potential I want, I give up" then its never gonna work. How about stop thinking about it, stop writing soo much in forums and browsing and playing video games and make some damn music. It takes time and you have to put that time in. Nothing in life is free- and you can take that to the bank!

Either you have it or you don't. You need to keep at it a few years to find out if you have it. Most people find out quickly, in a matter of months or a year. Like the guy that picks up a guitar for the first time, and 6 months later he's shredding on it. Once you discover you have it, you have to keep developing it, of course.

Writing good music involves live improvisation, not just punching notes in. The ability to play what you hear in your head in very important, as well as the innate ability to know what should come next; notes, chords, chord progressions. I don't think that can be taught, or acquired through practice or study. A lot of musicians that have mastered an instrument, aren't great song writers. There are musicians with heaps of music theory training, who can't write anything worthwhile.

Trance, progressive Trance, Progressive House, all heavily rely on having the right sounds. There's yet another skill set you must have. You can have good musical ideas, but without the right sounds, it won't work.

Keep it at, if you're having fun. That's all that matters in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Anyone can do anything. But it doesn't mean they should.

fixed imo

yeah you can learn to write great music by working hard. some things are not teachable though. I wouldn't say you're born with it or that it's within your genes, but some things you have to find on your own because it's hard to teach some things.

the thing is working hard correctly. Like I might be working hard on my J for basketball but if i have the wrong form in shooting a basketball then nothing is gonna happen.

what if music is in genes? Well i'm sure mozart didn't come out of the womb playing piano like it was nothing. Einstein was obsessed with how the universe works. They all worked hard. You'll never use your genes' potential if you don't work hard. Jordan wasn't that great when he was younger, he didn't even make the Varsity team at one point, he worked his ass off to be the greatest.

If you have the time, the energy, the patience, and have the skin to fail again, and again, I think those are the keys to being great to anything cliche as it is.

Moreso than genes, I think drive is something that cannot be taught. You have to be born with the fire in you to be great in anything. That's the only thing I think you have to be born with. I don't think this is genetic.

If genes are what make you the greatest, you need to work hard to unleash them. It can take you 6 months and it can take you 10 years or on your death bed(there are late bloomers in music). Working hard is the only way to find out if you got it.

Personally, I've found the old saying "the harder you work the luckier you get" applies to making music...

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery This really seems to be the mentality in this day & age and I partially blame this for the huge dip in the quality (and a massive increase in quantity) of music over the last few years. Anyone can do anything. But it doesn't mean they could do anything good.

Feeling repetitive now, but well said once again.

Having a musical background (e.g. learning to play an instrument as a child) clearly, I think, prepares one quite well re: being able to create good music. My best friend, for instance, has played piano for much of his life and now that he has begun to take music 'seriously' it's quite easy for him to, for example, come up with quality melodies.

Unfortunately, I have no musical background. Less than two years ago I was simply a fan of EDM, with no understanding as to how it is created. I had no clue re: chords, scales, progressions and I certainly was in the dark concerning production techniques. Approximately one year after I started producing my own tracks I was lucky enough to get something signed to a label for release (the tune isn't anything special but it got picked up nevertheless). I'm still nowhere near where I'd like to be in terms of my understanding of music and production skills, but hard work and dedication have brought me some (limited) achievements so far.

No significant gain without significant pain

Well my 2 P for what its worth.

I had no musical upbringing, not a didly squat !

I have a degree in music technology and understand the technical side to a relatively high level.

I thought at one point i had to learn theory to increase my productivity, creativity and musicality, which to some extent was correct, it definatly helps to know scales, chords etc.

I then got so caught up in theory that i started to loose "the natural ability i seemed to have for improvisation" so i panicked and dumped the theory.

Now i am getting back into theory again as i feel it helps me improve and grow with my music, there is definately nothing negative i see around working on your theory as long as it doesnt squash your natural creativity.

Now using the word "natural" can have serious connotations, does this word imply i was "born" with something? Who knows but even if it does there is no way to know about it or learn to release it without hard work and practice, is it genetic again who knows, but unknown to me my father was a guitar player (i have never met him and he wasnt talked about in my upbringing) so do i "get it from him"?

On another note, my GF was brought up with piano lessons every week, i think level 7 or something, she was taught in a strict "classical" sense as i am sure most are but heres the thing - she cannot improvise to save her life, does this mean her skill is manufactured? and if so she couldnt possibly be as good as someone who is "naturally" gifted? or is it, as she explains it, the fact that she was "semi forced" into learning which has had a negative effect on her enjoyment of playing the piano, same with the saxaphone ! Now she doesnt go near either of them, although if i need a tune explained or identified in regards to notes played etc she helps me out with no trouble at all.

All i can say is that i have always been into music, especially dance music and find it relatively comfortable to produce although my real comfort zone is teaching. I enjoy it for what it is and it makes me feel good to produce my own music, will i ever be great at it? personnaly i think that depends on how much time i put into it and not wether or not i was born with something which is untanjible, i beleive its extremely important how you where nurtured as a kid, what you where exposed too, etc as long as it wasnt forced, as in my GF case and how hard you worked to acheive your goals, Richard P Feynman is a great example of this, one of the greatest physicists to ever live and he puts it all down to his fathers teaching, the way he explained stuff etc.

Anyway my 2 cents.

Mark

I find from personal experience that there is a lot to learn in the overall making of a track, and this in itself can be a big hurdle to get over.

I mean you need basic skills in using your sequencer, sound design, eqing, leveling, scales, chords, theory, arrangement etc..., and it can just all seem like too much! lol

But getting back to the OP, then I personally think those that are around music from an early age, have the best chance at making something good.

If you can feel emotions from a melody, you can create a melody with emotion.

You can make write great music with hard work, IF you have great music in your mind.

Effort does not equal outcome.

Lack of effort, on the other hand, is generally the shortest path to failure.

Cant say about trance, but like one pro house producer (cant remember who) said its 90% technical and rest is talent. I think hes right, you have to have ear for music to make basic melody and hear whats good and not, but the rest putting song together, arrangement , little tricks and details and mixing is most important to get that pro sound. And picking the right sounds....and good gear

quote:

Originally posted by Notle Cant say about trance, but like one pro house producer (cant remember who) said its 90% technical and rest is talent. I think hes right,

Hence the reason there's so much worthless crap in electronica. The music that stands the test of time are the songs that have a strong sense of melody and are artistically well done. A trained monkey can learn to work a compressor, but creating music with soul takes much more than 10%.

You know this is one of those age old questions of nature vs nurture.

And even though I wonder m myself, in pyschology we are taught that MOST things in life are a combination of both.

Tiger Woods for example, was he born with superior hand to eye coordination or was the product of his skill a result of start at an early age and having a great teacher?

A lot of us here don't have great teachers, and a lot of us didn't start playing the keyboard when we were 6. So EVEN in the respect of our environments w/out the interplay of genes we are already limited.

Than there are pro bodybuilders who obviously use steroids, and have superb diets yet there are thousands of men using just as much juice, have even better diets, and still will never reach that level physically.

Than you have people who are born with these genetic talents and never discover them because their environment doesn't nurture it to ever bloom.

Than you have the most important group of people, people like us.
People who frame their thinking through scarcity and a self defeatist map of reality.
MAYBE, just MAYBE, this right here, this wondering and questioning of our own limitations is actually the biggest setback a man can subject himself to.
Maybe that gene that makes people great is a gene that stops people from doing what is going on right here, trying to guess what our true nature is. Maybe the best of the best realize intuitively theres no way of knowing, so maybe they don't care, and maybe thats why they are able to do things we can't.
Because while we're busy questioning our true potential, they're out there right now feeling free, like they don't have limits, and whether or not is TRUE, maybe just believing it is is enough.

Who cares if you're naturally talented or not (if there even is such a thing)?

If you enjoy making music shouldn't that be what matters? I lose all track of time when I sit down to create, I enjoy it that much.

I never got into music thinking 'I hope I'm naturally talented cause I want to write the best music ever', I got into it because I was and still am fascinated with the world of music and I love creating it.

If you love music, nothing else should matter I would think.

Enjoy the process.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox [a great post]

^ Wicked.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Effort does not equal outcome. Lack of effort, on the other hand, is generally the shortest path to failure.

^ True.

Basically, anything with a soul comes from what you heard and resynthesized in your head. The paradox in a musician's life is that people will only keep the simplest melodies and ideas in mind while he/she kept struggling about sound, originality, the holy grail, that doesn't exist for musicians (hope you got it right, I DO believe in the real holy grail that's in the bible!).

Well, I've seen this happen dozens of times around me, those guys are simply struggling about one sound and their music in general, trying to be cool, and one day they make what they think a "cheap tune" which turns to be their biggest hit, and they don't believe in this "cheap music" until they realize how soulful their record is. Truth is that we're all the same including myself, trying to be cool, underestimating the power of simplicity.

The human factor, your state of mind, will always reflect itself in the way your knobs are turned or your automation got done. Like it or not. I hate some records that I did, and often they happen to be people's favourite records, until I get it myself. And even after ten years, I still hate Industry, although it's always funny to play it at gigs.

L.

genius is 90% perspiration 10% inspiration.

You'll never know if you don't try.

To be great, you really have to put in the hours as stated before. Tiger Woods did it, a lot of musicians did it (see the thread where scientists say it takes 10 years of HARD WORK to be great at a skill, that list includes mozart).

I'm assuming that many of the producers are of clubbing age and older. The older you get the less time for hobbies you have i think.

You have to put in the sweat, blood, and tears to be good.

The old saying goes:

You'll never, ever know unless you try.

I say: You'll never, ever know unless you work your ass off.

Many people try something for a week, realize that they suck and say "i'm not born with it." Another cliche saying is "successful people get knocked down more than unsuccessful people because successfull people keep trying and dno't back down"

You're going to get your ass wooped by the muses as you learn to make music, simple as that. NO ONE was born making their magnum opus out of the womb.

Well if you've been working your ass off for two years, and nothing has come of it, scientific american says you got 8 years to find out if you suck.

Re: Can you really "learn" to write *great* music just by working hard at it?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Or is there something that you have to be born with? Something that you either have or you don't? Something that no amount of instrument practice and music theory and sound engineering courses and synth manuals and hours of slaving away at melodies and chords and beats in front of your computer will ever provide? Maybe this question haunts every producer who hasn't yet written anything that he truly believes is moving and "professional." I know I think about it sometimes. Anyway, this little exchange in another thread made me think about the issue:

i think JmanNZ answered this best.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles [EDIT TO ADD: I'm obviously not talking about people who are deaf, or tone-deaf, or have no sense of rhythm at all. Basically I have in mind people who have an "average" or maybe slightly "above average" musical sense and really, really want to make great music.]

no need to preclude people with disabilities from the discussion, especially when there are shining examples like Beethoven.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Maybe. There are two sides to this I guess... 1. Maybe the people who think they can "do anything" are just deluding themselves and wasting their time. 2. Maybe the people who think they're crippled by "lack of talent" or "lack of early training" are just using that as an excuse not to work harder.

exactly.

I hope i can achieve everything i want with hard work , cause if not, then whats the point, "ill just quit, wait in my room and die."

However with music its not that easy i assume. Since its not just to be good at something, say making sounds, or learning WIndsurfing or body building.I think everybody can be great at stuff like these, so for EDM, everybody can be superb at creating sounds and mastering.But to make great melodies it takes talent. But i believe you have to be involved sufficiently to realise that you have talent, since "this is not for me, i guess ill quit" is a great excuse to quit at everything. Especially at EDM i think is where the least amount of talent/creativity is needed(this is just my opinion) since you can make remixes of other potential tracks and making an awesome superb incredibly interesting sound sometimes is enough for a great track anyway.But of course then its again harder with EDM because what if you are really creative, but have no knowledge what so ever how to make sounds,if you dont learn, then youll never realise that you were talented.

Depends on what "Great" music really is.
If your talking about classical , hell no. You really got to do be born with it.

But if your talking about trance / house music , its really technical stuff really... but yeah its kinda hard to think of a good melody hook that will pass on for a few years....


But i do believe that , if your really really interseted in something.. you can actually learn how to do it faster..

Why would one need to be 'born with it' for one style of music, but not for another?
That concept makes no sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by noicuc Depends on what "Great" music really is. If your talking about classical , hell no. You really got to do be born with it.

No offense, but...no. Being "born with it", if true, would not be limited to one specific time period spanning several centuries. Furthermore, classical is music is broadly defined as music ranging from the beginning of time to some undefined period in history and is a relative concept. In other words, the music of our generation will be considered "classical music" at some point in the future. By your reasoning, we will have "been born with it" in the eyes of future generations. That just doesn't make sense. If you were referring to the "Classical Period" which lasted only about 70 years (mid 1700s to early 1800s), well then you're leaving out many of the great masters of the Renaissance, Baroque, Romantic, etc. periods. That also makes no sense.

I won't waste my evening writing a thesis on the learning process that many of the great composers had to endure to achieve immortal status because you can look that up as easily as anybody and see for yourself that all "classical" composers weren't "born with it" and that they had to work much harder than most of us do today because they didn't have the technological resources that we have. But, I will add this: when you talk about classical composers, you're not just talking about the greats, you're also talking about the less-than-greats, the mediocres, and the horrible majority that you've never even heard of. For every Bach, Beethoven, Strauss, Mozart, and Stravinsky, there were literally tens of thousands of composers on the left side of the bell-shaped talent curve. They were "classical" composers as much as the greats were, but they obviously weren't "born with it" either.


edited for clarity and niceness - I was in a cranky mood last night!

Not to keep beating this dead horse, but that earlier comment regarding classical music got thinking back to my classical music studies in college so I decided to add a few more comments.

First of all, with regard to the notion of being born with it, all one needs to do is consider the style of music that any given great composer is renowned for to see that it's a matter of nurture, not nature. You have to understand that there is no universal model of musical perfection and that, to the contrary, music that is considered "great" vastly differs between cultures and time periods. Take any great classical western composer (e.g., Beethoven) for example. If he was truly great simply because he was born with some innate god-given ability, then why didn't he pop out of the womb with the ability to create compositions that would have been considered great masterpieces in India at that time, or compositions based on scales of the far East? He certainly wasn't afraid of breaking convention and was actually quite well-known for doing so, yet his compositions were still based on the same scales and modes used throughout western civilation during his time. Why? Simple - he was acclamated to writing in the same heptatonic (and to a lesser extent, pentatonic) scales that have been the mainstay throughout western music for centuries, because they sound "natural" in that culture. That is a result of behavioral modification due to constant exposure and teaching, not something that you are born with. If it was, then Asian music, Indian music, African, music, etc. would not differ from each other as much as they do.

Now, while I'm talking about Beethoven, another thing to consider is that he didn't start playing an instrument until he was around 5 or 6 IIRC. His father and grandfather were both excellent musicians and had him training relentlessly from morning until night. For several years, his father tried to sculpt him into the same prodigal musician that Mozart was, but he didn't get past mediocrity until later in life. In his teens, he moved to Vienna to study music under the greatest musicians and composers of that time, including Haydn. It wasn't until after that, and the death of his mother, that he began composing his great works. He was pretty much renowned for having labored over every single note and was rumored to spend months obsessing over one note. We're talking about a guy who devoted his life to his art and learned by working his tail off day and night and studying under the greatest composers of his time, but didn't start achieving greatness until he was around 20 years old. Guess what, folks? That's the story of the most well-known and arguably greatest composer in western civilization, and he wasn't born with it.

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