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-- compressor on the master channel?
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quote:

Originally posted by Vizay a 100% perfect result

non existent...

there is no perfect in art...

compressor is a nice tool... i for one like to crush and destroy my sounds, i just do, so i mash it all together and get what i want, i use the compressor on the master technique quite a lot, it helps me out when composing and mixing, as i tend to do stuff in a relatively low volume and cant always crank up the volume to hear those small sounds when composing... when i mix and "master" i usually do it in greater volume due to the nuances i should be worried about, but i see no wrong in putting a compressor on the master to get a "feel" of the final result... hack if i could compose with a ring modulator on the master I'd do it could be cool as hell...

no problem at all, but what you're talking about is the composition phase, I was talking about the mixing phase. Yes you can mix with a compressor/[insert any FX here] but the result will also be according to that then.

quote:

Originally posted by Vizay no problem at all, but what you're talking about is the composition phase, I was talking about the mixing phase. Yes you can mix with a compressor/[insert any FX here] but the result will also be according to that then.

its just a matter of personal preference, that's all...

I get Electronic Musician magazine and 2 issues ago there was an article written by some top mastering engineer. In the article he says to put a compressor (he uses the Oxford Dynamics in the article) on the master out with very subtle settings. He says it helps to glue the track together a little. He went on to say to use a compressor on individual tracks as needed, use a compressor on the master out with very gentle settings, and use a compressor in post production mastering, saying it further adds gell to the mix. I don't have the issue in front of me but can find the month (I think it was December's issue) and the page numbers if anyone is interested. It was a pretty interesting article.

I put a compressor on the master buss before I start. I have got used to working this way and can achieve the results I want from this.

I agree totally with the statement that says this helps to gel the sounds together. Keep in mind that we are not talking extremes here.
I will also compress individual groups of sounds i.e. Bass and Drums etc. and sometimes add a limiter too to make the drum track seem more solid.

If the end result is what you wanted then any method is the right way.
When writing and mixing a track I always set out to try and produce it in such a way that it doesn�t need too much in the way of mastering.

What most mastering houses are out to avoid is when people compress the shit out of mix and then hand it to a sound engineer and expect them to work magic.


Cheers
Nem

quote:

What most mastering houses are out to avoid is when people compress the shit out of mix and then hand it to a sound engineer and expect them to work magic.

Yes absolutely. this happens alot!. I just recently sat in on a mastering session and the engineer actually had to use an expander on the final mix! The guy who sent the mix had obviously just strapped an L2 on the 2-buss and smashed the hell out of the dynamics. This actually happens alot.

Mix buss compression is very different. Depending on the compressor, preferrably a dedicated buss compressor, you can really gel the sounds together without destroying any dynamics.

quote:

Originally posted by derail In terms of the original question - some great sounding songs and albums have been made using master bus compression (for example, on SSL mixing desks, which allegedly have a distinctive sound - I can't comment, I've never owned/ used one). Some experienced engineers have no problems working with the compression on, since they have 20, 30 years of experience working that way.

To answer two questions. Yes the quad-comp on the SSL's sound fantastic. I've used an SSL 6000 several times. What a mixer!

But jesus fuck you'd never START a mix that way. You might END a mix with some quad-comp doing light compression.

I think compression can best be equated to cooking. Pour some in, then boil it off for best results. In cooking that's called reducing, I believe.

Anyway, just thought I'd jump on the bandwagon: COMPRESSING MASTER CHANNEL AT THE BEGINNING OF A MIX IS BAD MKAY?.

Experienced producers might do a decent job mixing with compression on the master bus, but I still think it's an absolutely horrible tip to give in a tutorial to newbies who probably hardly know how compression even works, much less how to use it properly.

No disrespect towards anybody here that disagrees but Olav basoski is a very good house producer with a lot of quality releases under his belt.
Chances are he knows what he is talking about

The idea behind this is simple. Do all your volume adjustments against the compressor setting so that the sound of the whole track does not change after you throw the master buss
compressor on the final mix. All your relative volume levels stay how you wanted them.

There is no right or wrong.

If He likes working this way and the end product sounds good and it sells than I say he is doing a good job.

quote:

it's an absolutely horrible tip to give in a tutorial to newbies who probably hardly know how compression even works, much less how to use it properly

i actually agree somewhat. You should only be using these techniques if you know EXACTLY what you want to achieve. There is no point whatsoever in putting a compressor on the master buss just for the sake of it and because someone in a tutorial has told you to!

This technique shouldn't be forgotten though as it is a very powerfull tool. You will find a lot of house producers and many mixing engineers using this technique.

I disagree. No puppies are going to be harmed by a newbie experimenting with a compressor on their master buss. Sometimes doing something "wrong" is best way to learn how not to do it. And, sometimes doing something "wrong" ends up being pure genius (although, not likely in this case).

Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles You can put one on the master channel, but putting it on before you start to mix is stupid.

It's all about breaking the rules, innit?

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I know dance music is really over compressed, but that just sounds ridiculous.

ever listened to pop or metal? metalica? thats fucking shameless compression

Re: Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by Microlab It's all about breaking the rules, innit?

Yeah but you gotta know the rules, before you try to break them.

Re: Re: Re: Re: compressor on the master channel?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Yeah but you gotta know the rules, before you try to break them.

fuck rules if it sounds good and it works then its game ball.

quote:

Originally posted by palm ever listened to pop or metal? metalica? thats fucking shameless compression

or hip hop... tons of music excluding classical has popularly been over-compressed in the last 15 years.

sometimes I like to work with compression and limiting on my master channel even before i start my arrangement. And sometimes I don't. In my opinion, if it helps you get the sound you have in your head then do it. Who is to say that you should or should not do something that can creatively alter the sound of your song, and alter the process in which you go through to get your finished product.

I do think though, that instant results can fuel creativity.

Based on this discussion, I decided to run my master buss through a hardware compressor just to see what it is like to work that way. I've never really tried to work this way, but we'll see if it produces good results. Personally, I have major problems with my mixes going totally out of balance when I get to the "home mastering" phase, so this might be an good solution for that problem. When I put compression on the master, I usually use very, very subtle settings (1-2 db max).

quote:

Originally posted by meDina or hip hop... tons of music excluding classical has popularly been over-compressed in the last 15 years.

I find some classical music under compressed, in the sense that you'll be sitting there listening and enjoying it, and then suddenly it'll become so quiet that you can't hear it any more. That sucks as much as over compression IMO.

At the end of the day it IS all about breaking the rules, and any production technique is great as long as you understand the implications of what your doing. What ISN'T OK, is people throwing compressors and effects around without any real strategy in mind or any understanding about what they're actually doing with them.

Also, there IS heaps too much talk about compression. Its a utilitarian effect that you use to modulate volume automatically. It WON'T EVER save a mix, its not a magic button for professional sounding mixes. It doesn't make a mix "gel" better. Slamming five synths through a compressor is a lazy way to design, arrange and mix them and will end up sounding inferior to a well designed sound which has been well mixed.

People act as though its complicated, mysterious and incredibly powerful. It isn't. Its a simple tool with a simple function, and making it out to be the holy grail of effects is ultimately confusing.

Compression is the act of destroying a sound. This is why they mention doing it in small doses

But as has been said a billion times... if you desgine your sounds properly you won't need to compress anything and you won't have any peaks for limiting...

Sending a track in to be mastwred is basicly asking someone else to fix the problems you were to lazy to resolve when you were producing the track

this only applies to 95% of the people who use compressors, some people know how to use the properly

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Sending a track in to be mastwred is basicly asking someone else to fix the problems you were to lazy to resolve when you were producing the track

Not really, especially if you're talking about a track that's going to be pressed to vinyl.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Compression is the act of destroying a sound. This is why they mention doing it in small doses But as has been said a billion times... if you desgine your sounds properly you won't need to compress anything and you won't have any peaks for limiting... Sending a track in to be mastwred is basicly asking someone else to fix the problems you were to lazy to resolve when you were producing the track this only applies to 95% of the people who use compressors, some people know how to use the properly

wrong. any musical piece will have peaks, its music, not noise... i suggest you learn a bit more about these stuff..

quote:

Originally posted by Existo22 No disrespect towards anybody here that disagrees but Olav basoski is a very good house producer with a lot of quality releases under his belt. Chances are he knows what he is talking about The idea behind this is simple. Do all your volume adjustments against the compressor setting so that the sound of the whole track does not change after you throw the master buss compressor on the final mix. All your relative volume levels stay how you wanted them. There is no right or wrong. If He likes working this way and the end product sounds good and it sells than I say he is doing a good job.

I'm sorry, but I will have to call bullshit on that guy. It's a personal preference to mix against a compressor I guess, not something you advise people to do through a "tutorial video". Half way into mixing he changed the threshold and the ratio (I think) on the compressor (on the master bus), because he didn't like the sound. No shit. That's the reason you don't put a compressor there at the mixing stage. So after he did that, the levels on the tracks got screwed up. No shit #2.

Again, I have no problem if some people do it that way, it's just that I've never heard someone do that before I saw him and I thought this is somewhat of a "standard" in EDM.

Also, I think that guy is clueless. At one point in the video he's talking about the loudness wars and then goes to say something like - and I0'm not shitting you -> "I don't know why people want their mixes so loud. If a track isn't loud enough you just turn up the gain on the mixer, that's why it's there." I'm not kidding you, I even think this is the exact quote he says. After I heard that I just scrolled through the video quickly just to end it.

Also he had clipping on almost every track in his mix. He did say something like how he doesn't care about "looking" at music, rather hearing it. So he says if he doesn't hear the signal getting clipped he doesn't bother lowering the volume. Which I guess isn't such a bad idea since every trance track I checked clips at least 10 times through the track - and I'm talking the likes of Tiesto, Armin etc... But he had levels peaking at something like 2.7db on the master or something most of the time. Even if you don't hear it, that might cause problems later (at least) at the mastering stage.

So a followup; I also get some clipping on the master in my tracks - mostly only when the kick hits in - and I'm not talking 2.7db here. As I said, I checked a lot of tracks from professional DJs/producers and almost every track has clipping in it. So should I worry about this if I can't hear it or just leave it?
AFAIK there should never be clipping on individual tracks, but it's kinda OK on the master? That's what I heard...

It just depends on how long the clipping is. You probably won't hear the clipping if it lasts for the length of a couple samples, but if it lasts for much more than that it will start sounding shitty. Personally I try not to clip my tracks at all, but I know that tracks that clip for the length of a few samples can still sound decent.

Also IMO a track can sound bad from too much compression even if it never clips at all, but that's really just my personal preference. Tracks with a ton of compression tire out my ears and make it hard to listen to them often.

Some tracks have horrendous clipping. There's a Tiesto song on the latest Trancemaster which is horribly distorted through extreme limiting. I always just skip past that song.

Inaudible clipping is fine, but the gritty stuff shows up now and then on "professional" releases. If it shows up often enough, some people may actually start thinking that a bit of "grittiness/distortion" is tolerable/normal. So use your ears, and be very aware of what that undesirable noise sounds like - if you can hear it, you've pushed the limiter/compressor too hard. And, as MrJiveBoJingles said, you don't have to go anywhere near clipping to destroy a song with inappropriate compression. Compressors can do terrible things to sounds even at low levels.

Perhaps in the future we'll all be listening to what effectively amount to square waves - just solid, full-volume distortion from start to finish. We can finally dispense with "music", since producers can just feed noise in to produce the loud end result.

Or at some point enough people care about dynamics and lack of distortion, in which case a number of today's songs will simply vanish. You can't simply remove the damage from an overcompressed/ overlimited song.

quote:

Originally posted by dannib You should only be using these techniques if you know EXACTLY what you want to achieve.

I would go so far as to say that if you would even consider asking someone else about whether or not it's the right thing to do, then you definitely should not be doing it. If you really know what you're doing, then you already have the answer, and if you don't, then KISS.

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