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-- Fear of hell
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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I tend to reject blanket complaints about "organized religion" since they are usually more a loose collection of complaints against specific actions by specific religious groups or doctrines that don't apply to others. To me; most complaints about "organized religion" are a kin to stating all cars are terrible because the Pinto exploded, the Pony was too small, and the Fierro overheated all the time.

I understand (and agree with) your point, so let me try to clarify. It's the idea of the organization of religion that bothers me. Since it's been mentioned, let's take the Catholic church (I was raised Baptist, only went to a Catholic church once or twice). I never understood the whole "I recite, you recite" thing... or the expectation to kneel on the bar... or the holy water... or the hail Marys, and following this whole itinerary. Having everything so procedural. It just doesn't seem... I dunno... correct, to me.

Also, I was taught that the Bible was the undisputed and infallible Word of God. That was also a struggle for me, as everything I had been taught depended on that fact... yet I just couldn't understand how a document so translated and passed along and interpreted and not even available in some places could be the end-all documentation. But, I suppose I'm derailing from the topic at hand, here.

Sorry, not trying to take over your thread, JBJ

I settled at a comfortable medium. Whereas my background (family especially) leads me into belief, and rituals and traditions of the russian orthodox faith. It also "enforced" (though I don't think that's the proper term) a belief in God.
At the same time the logic in me dictates that in order for God to exist I must experience him or see undeniable proof of this God. None of which has happened.
Therefore I can really neither deny the existance, or disprove that of, God.

Sometimes I find myself a little confused in this "clusterfuck" middle ground I've chosen. But I believe that as long as I live my life as what my perception of "good" is, I should be ok. I guess I also accept the fact that what I percieve as good, may not be the case for a lot of others.

...But if you don't see the natural good that is hookers and blow, I don't know what's wrong with you, I really don't.

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael I understand (and agree with) your point, so let me try to clarify. It's the idea of the organization of religion that bothers me. Since it's been mentioned, let's take the Catholic church (I was raised Baptist, only went to a Catholic church once or twice). I never understood the whole "I recite, you recite" thing... or the expectation to kneel on the bar... or the holy water... or the hail Marys, and following this whole itinerary. Having everything so procedural. It just doesn't seem... I dunno... correct, to me.

Stand, sit, stand, sit, kneel, stand, kneel, take a shot, kneel, sit, stand, sit, stand, leave. It seemed very strange to me at first too. When I looked into it further I learned that the reason it is so regimented is because every mass on a given day at any RC church is the same as it is at every RC church across the globe. The same prayer, the same readings, same psalm... the only things that differ are the songs, the intercessions (the little prayer "for blah blah blah we pray... "lord hear our prayer"... "for yak yak yak, we pray"... "lord hear our prayer") and the homily (sermon). This is done because the church sees itself as universal and all should receive the same sacrament, blessings, and teachings. It is really all part of the inclusiveness that the RC church extends and in that sense it is very noble; however, universality can only exist with structure.

quote:

Also, I was taught that the Bible was the undisputed and infallible Word of God. That was also a struggle for me, as everything I had been taught depended on that fact... yet I just couldn't understand how a document so translated and passed along and interpreted and not even available in some places could be the end-all documentation.

Yeah, that's a rather recent and fairly limited view by a small number of churches. I would argue that anyone who tells someone that the Bible is the be all and end all and they should not look beyond it is really doing a disservice. There is nothing worse then blind faith; I tend to believe those that argue faith should be blind do so because they cannot reason through their faith or it is so weak that any challenge would destroy it. I believe that faith is like principles... unless it's challenged it really isn't worth very much.

Or you can step back and realize how ridiculous most of this religious stuff is. Even though I consider myself a fairly strong atheist I like how Denys Envy phrased his views. Very scientific. However their is also the teapot argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I don't get that response, as it's neither relevant nor funny.

me too

I'm pretty similar. Was raised into a system of beliefs, last couple years of high school and through college I really stopped attending and caring about church. Looking back now I can see that all the while through church I don't think I was "buying" a lot of it, I was just afraid of hell and the afterlife so I figured it would be best to just go with it.

I'm not sure of my beliefs now, I'm no atheist but I'm not fond of religion at all at this point in time.

Fairweather Christians and sinners, you lot are.

Re: Fear of hell

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer.

Well, don't worry about that. There are an infinite number of mutually exclusive possible "gods" (for example, an n-headed god that'll send you to hell if you don't believe that he has n heads.) Since no cognizable evidence exists to draw the conclusion that any one of them is more probable than any other, belief in any of them would give you--at best--an infinitesimal chance at avoiding hell if any of them existed, which is effectively the same as what you would have if you believed in none of them.

In any event, I'm not sure what you think "suffering" could possibly be describing in the absence of a nervous system... for that matter, I'm not sure what you think "you" could possibly be in the absence of your nervous system. Perhaps a helpful theist will come along and explain to me the details of the cognition of the soul. This is something I've yet to succeed in throttling out of believers with any particularity; they seem to be entirely satisfied with entirely magical explanations of how they're going to see without eyes and feel without a brain. We're all aware that time existed where we had no eyes and brains before (indeed, where there was no 'us')--and guess what, we weren't seeing or feeling anything. I see no reason to suspect that the after-life is any different than the before-life.

That sure does make a whole lot of sense...

But it's blasphemy nevertheless, so it can't possibly be right.

we are in hell right now. No need to fear it anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by KiNeTiC ENeRgY we are in hell right now. No need to fear it anymore.

No, you're in Hell, I am right here on Earth with my best friend Jesus, a free ticket to Heaven in-hand. It's not too late for you, my fallen brother. You, too, can inherit the Kingdom of God - all you must do is apologize to the sky for all of those horrible and reprehensible things that your biological avarice has impelled you to committ, then wholly and truly accept the eternal love of some desert-dwelling phantasm. Then eat him.

Makes cheques or money-order, payable to "The Peace And Love On Earth Forever Foundation".

Hell is on earth. It is a state of mind, an experience. It is the complete lack of love for the Self and for others. It feels as if you've been abandoned, forgotten, tossed aside. It is the deepest fear, the deepest depression anyone can experience. It is emptiness, Self torture, grief, a cycle of constant negativity that seems impossible to rid your Self from. When one reaches this state of mind it begins to manifest itself physically. You begin to shut down. The body will ache and tremble, eating and sleeping habits will change. What once brought you joy now brings pain and suffering.

You've now lost your friends. You tried to drag them down with you and they would've have it. You lock your Self inside, and resist the Light, the Sun, The Source of all life. The mere thought of stepping outside brings on a sense of panic and anxiety, insanity, fear and anguish. You are now enveloped in complete darkness. You have hit Rock Bottom. All hope is lost.

This, is Hell.
The Devil is in charge.
The Devil is your mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Aortik No, you're in Hell, I am right here on Earth with my best friend Jesus, a free ticket to Heaven in-hand. It's not too late for you, my fallen brother. You, too, can inherit the Kingdom of God - all you must do is apologize to the sky for all of those horrible and reprehensible things that your biological avarice has impelled you to committ, then wholly and truly accept the eternal love of some desert-dwelling phantasm. Then eat him. Makes cheques or money-order, payable to "The Peace And Love On Earth Forever Foundation".

I'm doing my best Jesus pose I can, just Think Armin

Believe!

quote:

Originally posted by Lomeli Hell is on earth. It is a state of mind, an experience. It is the complete lack of love for the Self and for others. It feels as if you've been abandoned, forgotten, tossed aside. It is the deepest fear, the deepest depression anyone can experience. It is emptiness, Self torture, grief, a cycle of constant negativity that seems impossible to rid your Self from. When one reaches this state of mind it begins to manifest itself physically. You begin to shut down. The body will ache and tremble, eating and sleeping habits will change. What once brought you joy now brings pain and suffering. You've now lost your friends. You tried to drag them down with you and they would've have it. You lock your Self inside, and resist the Light, the Sun, The Source of all life. The mere thought of stepping outside brings on a sense of panic and anxiety, insanity, fear and anguish. You are now enveloped in complete darkness. You have hit Rock Bottom. All hope is lost. This, is Hell. The Devil is in charge. The Devil is your mind.

My life is a river of black

Torrents of void envelope my every being

I can see nothing

I am bound

Darkness is all that I know

Silence.

-Aortik

deep.

I wrote it just for you.

<3

quote:

Originally posted by Lomeli Hell is on earth. It is a state of mind, an experience. It is the complete lack of love for the Self and for others. It feels as if you've been abandoned, forgotten, tossed aside. It is the deepest fear, the deepest depression anyone can experience. It is emptiness, Self torture, grief, a cycle of constant negativity that seems impossible to rid your Self from. When one reaches this state of mind it begins to manifest itself physically. You begin to shut down. The body will ache and tremble, eating and sleeping habits will change. What once brought you joy now brings pain and suffering. You've now lost your friends. You tried to drag them down with you and they would've have it. You lock your Self inside, and resist the Light, the Sun, The Source of all life. The mere thought of stepping outside brings on a sense of panic and anxiety, insanity, fear and anguish. You are now enveloped in complete darkness. You have hit Rock Bottom. All hope is lost. This, is Hell. The Devil is in charge. The Devil is your mind.

Damn thats just straight up depressing.

But vivid imagery.

8/10

Thanks

The exact opposite can be said of Heaven.

Funny how this is bound to culture: I used to be afraid of reincarnation as a teenager.

Despite my Christian upbringing, my family is deeply influenced by kardecism. It's a sect that originated in France and is quite popular where I live (most of my friends have either been kardecistss or have kardecism parents). It's a weird blending of Christianity, Darwinism, and Hinduism.

According to kardecist thought, the afterlife is pretty much like ordinary life, but there are different levels and whatnot. And then, there's rebirth. You die, you go some place else where you're punished/praised/whatevered, and then you're back - either to planet Earth or to some other more/less advanced planet.

And I grew up being told such was (after)life. It really bothered me. Was I stuck this stupid cycle of death and rebirth, earning mana and karma, with no memory card to save my progress so I could take a moral holiday!? When did I agree to take part in this messed up world? Why couldn't I just leave without being punished and then brought back? (being a Christian sect, suicide was frowned upon).

This rebellion, so to speak, didn't last more than 6 months, though. Being in contact with orthodox Christianity and Buddhism, and always having had a thing for agnosticism/atheism (I was expelled from a Catholic Elementary school for being an heretic ), I quickly threw the religious baby out and kept the moral bathwater.

Now, don't you think your fear of hell is just as absurd as my fear of being reborn? The difference is just the social context you find yourself in

Fulfill your Karmic duties, Lira.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira earning mana and karma, with no memory card to save my progress so I could take a moral holiday!?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Depends on which type of Christian you ask, I suppose. According to the ones I grew up with, it most certainly was.

I remember the arch-bishop of the catholic church in Guatemala telling me when i was a boy "Hell is not made out of fire and demonds, it is simply the absense of god"

Anyhow, during the time i went to church and believed in god, i dont think the though of hell crossed my mind. Now that i stopped going and i guess stopped believing (its not that i believe there is or there is not a god, its just that i dont waste my time with something i find irrelevant), i dont fear i will go to hell.

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