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-- Can soft synths ever sound as good as hardware? Post your opinion.
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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox No offense, will people stop promoting this poormans mentality. I think people who say that have convinced themself of that falsey to save money. So you're basically telling people to believe "the best soft synth" is really as good "as the best VA?" The best hardware VAs piss on the best softsynth VAs And finally, hardware simply sounds better.

Talk all you want, but no amount of hardware can buy you programming skills. Your entire logic is completely flawed because you fail to realize there are vast amounts of producers who are software only. Producers who have moved on from hardware to software. It has nothing to do with price, it is the simple fact that production skill is more valuable than any virus TI.

It is people like you who have bought hardware and are upset with their investments because they cannot attain that instant pro-sound that they thought hardware would bring. So instead of actually working on programming and other synth mastery, you go on about how you are superior because you went out and bought something unnecessary.

can we calm things down a little here??

Who cares after all if one's using hardware or software, it's only the result that matters.

Look at Subtle, I know that he likes hardware that much, and you know that I've been doing everything in the box for years. Any noticeable difference? Not really.

That's everyone's lack of knowledge that makes me laugh. How can we argue about the mechanics of a car when we are lambda users? It's exactly the same with every single synthesizer, hardware or software. Once you get to build your own stuff into modular, you'll get rid of all your presets, and once you've done that, you'll be able to get the exact same result on all synths when designing your own sounds, hardware or software, depending on their features.

If the mechanics and pipes are good quality, virtual or real doesn't matter, it will result in good sound quality. Even in 16bit/44.1, like I've been doing for years, and that's definitely not a good example. IF there's a slight difference in sound between all synths, that's because some macro-command are not finetuned the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox No offense, will people stop promoting this poormans mentality. I think people who say that have convinced themself of that falsey to save money. So you're basically telling people to believe "the best soft synth" is really as good "as the best VA?" Ok, what are some of the best hardware VA's? Nord or TI? (to keep things simple) Best soft synth VA? Hmm lets see.. Sylenth, Z3TA, Albino 3, Ominsphere? Zebra2? .. the list is fairly long. If you do the math. Theres actually wayyy more SS's that HS's (software than hardware synths) BECAUSE they are cheaper and they are infact also built for way cheaper labor/productivity and all around result to the box. The best hardware VAs piss on the best softsynth VAs, if you can't hear the difference maybe you played your music too loud for a few years and damaged a part of your hearing. No jokes, I'm serious. Also the OP raises a valid question despite those who think its a "buried discussion" a ***discussion**** by nature is active and alive, ("alive" people have them) you simply contradict your point using those 2 words in that order. When a discussion is burried it is not longer HAD, think about it. And finally, hardware simply sounds better. Give me a test and name the synths used in it with the sounds (link). One hard and one soft. I bet I can do it. =] (I did not mean the SS's I named were all VA just saying the best in general)

Or you need a reason or idea to bollox yourself into thinking you made a good investment.

Really, unless you are looking for a specific moog or virus sound or what ever...a normal artist has utterly no need to go with hardware...you can do live shows now with almost 0 hardware. [you need a sound system, that's about it] Hardware is generally a novelty item these days.

In 10-20 years, hardware will consist entierly and only of the PC you choose to run your software on. And probably midi controlers [can't really do those on a pc :P] ..[edit: then again, with touch screen technology even those will be on a monitor.]

I am sorry, but Hardware IS better

- VSTi's will never properly emulate Analoque
- VSTI's always sound harsh in the high end (metalic)
- VSTi's sound "thin/hollow" compared with hardware VA's they lack the density of HW VA alogrithms.
- outboard has different DA stages (not neccecarily better specced, but being a better match with the synth)
- Outboard has better FX

VSTi's who "emulate" are crap full stop and sound all the same. The only VSTi's i really like are V-Station in it's own right and FM8 (DX7) and Gladiator. The rest are just poor mans rip-offs

VSTi's get really usefull in romplers like NEXUS and such, or samplers like battery. Though i would not want to replace my JOMOX or Elektron for PC sampling for percussion

Even via USB a Virus TI sounds smoother than ANY native VSTi.

VSTi's do come close and are a feasible low cost alternative, but for me, at this stage they will not replace outboard.

A different question would be, what is better for producing trance? then i would say Software since the current mainstream releases nearly all have that VSTi sound. If your after THAT sound, don't bother with hardware, if you're not a sheep and want to sound different than the FLstudio gang, invest in HW.....

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie I am sorry, but Hardware IS better - VSTi's will never properly emulate Analoque - VSTI's always sound harsh in the high end (metalic) - VSTi's sound "thin/hollow" compared with hardware VA's they lack the density of HW VA alogrithms. - outboard has different DA stages (not neccecarily better specced, but being a better match with the synth) - Outboard has better FX VSTi's who "emulate" are crap full stop and sound all the same. The only VSTi's i really like are V-Station in it's own right and FM8 (DX7) and Gladiator. The rest are just poor mans rip-offs VSTi's get really usefull in romplers like NEXUS and such, or samplers like battery. Though i would not want to replace my JOMOX or Elektron for PC sampling for percussion Even via USB a Virus TI sounds smoother than ANY native VSTi. VSTi's do come close and are a feasible low cost alternative, but for me, at this stage they will not replace outboard. A different question would be, what is better for producing trance? then i would say Software since the current mainstream releases nearly all have that VSTi sound. If your after THAT sound, don't bother with hardware, if you're not a sheep and want to sound different than the FLstudio gang, invest in HW.....

People will not care about Analoque sound....I don't, i have a list of around 50 other musicians on my msn who don't either. Its a fad, a novelty. Its not the core of any genera of music.

Some VSTis do sound harsh, some VSTis also develope at lighting speed so soon this won't matter.

Va algorithms can be applied to a PC no problem. Or better yet, Pc algorythms can be made that do things..better. Thin sounds? Blame the failure of a musician who programmed that patch. Also, since when did thick sounds be a requirement of good sounds? Phatness right now is a fad, the thing people like, its not the foundation of anything.

Satges, FX, all things that can be done better on a PC with proper coding.

Most of the problems you pointed out have to do with the situation of current technology and software programming. In a year, in 6 months, all of this will change.

and PS, only sheep still use moog and virus. Go invent a better sound and not whore old ass busted sounds from yesterdecade This isn't 1996



[edit: sorry if this post sounds harsh, i am jsut tired of old obsolete artists bragging about how hardware from 20 years ago still beats modern technology, we get it, you stillenjoy that specific sound, but people won't care about it forever, eventually, we will all move on. and pss, if you like trance so much, you would agree with me that it died after 1999, pre 99 trance was awesome, everything after is just...meh]

quote:

Originally posted by Stef Talk all you want, but no amount of hardware can buy you programming skills. Your entire logic is completely flawed because you fail to realize there are vast amounts of producers who are software only. Producers who have moved on from hardware to software. It has nothing to do with price, it is the simple fact that production skill is more valuable than any virus TI. It is people like you who have bought hardware and are upset with their investments because they cannot attain that instant pro-sound that they thought hardware would bring. So instead of actually working on programming and other synth mastery, you go on about how you are superior because you went out and bought something unnecessary.

lol...this argument is ridiculous when there is in the software vs hardware debate. Why do you guys always go to programming skills when hardware's superiority in sound is brought up? "but teh hardware wont save you from the fire." Software wont buy you programming skills either will it? Whats the difference, they both require programming skills if you want to design sounds using the synths abilities. If im not mistaken, VSTi programming is modelled after hardware programming, and then has taken its own directions, and sometimes more complex.

I dont think anyone who is in the hardware camp thinks "ok i buy this hardware im auto win". No, the auto win is that the sound is naturally good without wrestling with eq's and compressors to make it sound good. It has nothing to do with programming, the sound itself of hardware synths are better than the sounds that come out of virtual synths. The topic of programming is completely irrelevant in the discussion of "what sounds better." On the topic of programming and functionality, they are closer. Certain things can be done on Analogue easier and certain things can be done on softsynths easier. Having messed with a few nice synths, personally i'd rather take the great sound of Analogue synths without wrestling with plugins to aide it, and the hands on feel of synths over vst's anyday. That said, the best way to go is a hybrid setup of both software and hardware.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Having messed with a few nice synths, personally i'd rather take the great sound of Analogue synths

May I ask, which analog synths in particular?
What are your favorite analog synths? Name 5.

If I were a mod, I would lock this discussion straight away...and also ban the topic starter... :/

jeeeeeeez, can't you all just say "if it sounds good, it's good" and end it up at that?

VST analog emulations are quite far from sounding like the real thing although they do have a kind of similar vibe. VSTs can sound as good as hardware VA synths although VAs often sound better because the developers have more money and time to spend on R&D. i also find hardware a lot more fun to program and it gives me so much more inspiration when live tweaking etc. Software bores me just sitting their with a mouse.

As far as analogue v vst synths. VSTs can often do way more as certian things are almost imposible in an analogue synth. The sound though is alot better in an analogue synth. Software often sounds cheap in comparison. What sort of test would you be interested in hearing?

quote:

Originally posted by BOOsTER If I were a mod, I would lock this discussion straight away...and also ban the topic starter... :/ jeeeeeeez, can't you all just say "if it sounds good, it's good" and end it up at that?

Go away, clearly if it costs more its better

PS

Incidentally, somone brought up that theres heaps more VSTs than hardware synths as a reason that VSTs are inferior? Thats ridiculous, ever heard of the benefits of competition?

Here are some demo files i thought i would quickly upload. Showing you can get decent sounds out of both analogue and va synths. Here is a tracklisting relative to the names within the zip file:

1. Rawsaw: This is just a raw sawtooth waveform with filter fully open. There are 3 takes within the file. the first is a moog voyager, second access virus, thrid linplug albino 3.

2. Reece demo: this is a simple 2osc sawtooth detuned with filter open. Same order as before i.e moog, virus, albino.

3. Sweeps; this is a simple 1 sawtooth filter sweep. same synths and order as above.

4. 303_1 & 303_2: Simple stabs using accent on my 303. Couldn't replicate this perfectly with audiorealism bassline so didn't include files.

5. The rest of the tracks are self explanitory. just showcasing some of the simple sounds you can get with a nord lead 2. These sounds wouldnt sound as good on a moog and you would have to multitrack etc.

There is a file called moog_track. This is a multitracked moog doing a house style track.

Odyssey_1 is a sweep from my arp odyssey. Screaming as hell. Doubt you could create a tone like that in software.



link to files

Forgot to add:

All files are 24bit wav. No mp3s here. zipped file size is 20mb. Feel free to use any of the sounds or ideas in your productions.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Theres actually wayyy more SS's that HS's (software than hardware synths) BECAUSE they are cheaper and they are infact also built for way cheaper labor/productivity and all around result to the box.

And they are "cheaper" because you've already paid for the hardware portion of it... your DAW, which is doing the same things that today's VA's are doing. I think that's the point being made, here.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir People will not care about Analoque sound....I don't, i have a list of around 50 other musicians on my msn who don't either. Its a fad, a novelty. Its not the core of any genera of music.

That you don't care doesn't mean others don't, take off those blinkers. And talk for yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Some VSTis do sound harsh, some VSTis also develope at lighting speed so soon this won't matter.

At this moment it STILL does matter, hence i invest in hardware, rather than wait untill it lives up to my expectations.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Va algorithms can be applied to a PC no problem. Or better yet, Pc algorythms can be made that do things..better. Thin sounds? Blame the failure of a musician who programmed that patch.

Can be made, but currently aren't.
Dedicated dsp's are still so much more efficient..... LOL mostVSTi's sound "thin/hollow" which does not mean that they are not active in the lower frequency spectrum, but they just sound A LOT LESS DENSE.... I figured by now, you've never heard a REAL MOOG Voyager or JOMOX drumcomputer

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Also, since when did thick sounds be a requirement of good sounds? Phatness right now is a fad, the thing people like, its not the foundation of anything.

LOL, no one likes hollow bass :-)

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Satges, FX, all things that can be done better on a PC with proper coding.

Again, can be done..... but currently aren't.
Also I use my Lexicon reverb over my Powercore verbs anytime.
Also outboard synths have dedicated signature FX, which give character to the overall sound.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Most of the problems you pointed out have to do with the situation of current technology and software programming. In a year, in 6 months, all of this will change..

Again we're not there yet, so currently outboard IS better, the promise of VSTi's is something else than todays reality.........

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir and PS, only sheep still use moog and virus. Go invent a better sound and not whore old ass busted sounds from yesterdecade This isn't 1996

LOL, sheep join the fruity gang, you will not find a Virus or Voyager on the pirate bay......

Outboard currently delivers a sound which VSTi's can not match....

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir [edit: sorry if this post sounds harsh, i am jsut tired of old obsolete artists bragging about how hardware from 20 years ago still beats modern technology, we get it, you stillenjoy that specific sound, but people won't care about it forever, eventually, we will all move on. and pss, if you like trance so much, you would agree with me that it died after 1999, pre 99 trance was awesome, everything after is just...meh]

LOL, music is not about the ingredients but about the chef....
however it's harder to cook cuisine with prefab canned foods than with fresh ingredients.....

I would recommend you to go to a music store, put some headphones on and actually listen...... saves a lot non informed bashing......

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Go away, clearly if it costs more its better

you didn't get my point, what I meant to say was that you shall use whatever works for you...be it hardware or software...99% of people won't be able to tell the difference once the track is finished.

This discussion is just for us so called "geeks" to have something to argue about...

@everyone: get a friend of yours and let him listen two tracks, one done with hardware, one done with software...I'm sure, the person will most probably not find much difference.

The discussion is not if one is better than the other, but if they differ and yes, they differ........ outboard does not sound as VSTi and VSTi does not sound as outboard......

Tone Nazis!

I just read this whole thread. What a wast of time. I didn't learn anything.

That is all. Thanks

Great post Numb. Without being sarcastic finally someone that sees this topic is crap.

To quote myself from another topic:

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller For god sakes. If it sounds right it is right [...]. Nobody cares as long as it sounds good.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Great post Numb. Without being sarcastic finally someone that sees this topic is crap. To quote myself from another topic:

exactly that I'm saying...

I love these never ending threads that no ones right or wrong.

At the end fo the day, you use what you have and what it takes to get the job done.

I have both owned and used the following, not only in the stores but actually in the studio to make tunes; Alesis A6, Waldorf MicroQ, Sh201, MFB Synth Lite, Access Virus indigo, B & C, Dave Smith Evolver and Mopho. I also have the PowerCore Access Virus which between the VirusB I would use the PoCo version just for ease of programming, the sound to me is slightly deeper on the real deal, but nothing a good mix can't do.

When it's all said and done I use both VSTi and hardware. Sometimes I use just vst, sometimes just hardware. Who fucken cares.

Apparently anyone who doesn't use hardware, steals software from The Pirate Bay...lol

To the guy above me. Some people actually write your track off as garbage without listening, upon hearing that you didn't use hardware. Or upon hearing that you used a daw less than a grand. Yeah, those people exist, most of them run labels. Most of them are also fucking retarded.

Unfortianlly, we are still stuck in the "its now how you use it, its what you use" stage of life.

No that's just some pun on top.... just like VSTi lovers, hardware lovers like to bash as well

but it's true, hardware cannot be acquired without financial means. Software can. (wether you support this is a seperate discussion)

I think the best statement was already made earlier, you pick best of both worlds, i have all my mixing and tracking in the box, I use SSL & Powercore for dynamics and FX (though i would love to have some Manley, Tubetech and API in my racks) And i use my sources based on my requirements. some of them are distinct VSTi's for their sound or workflow (i.e. NEXUS2, Gladiator, V-Station)others are hardware (i.e. Virus TI, Voyager, Little Phatty, Blofeld, Elektron sps1 XBASE-999 etc...)

what i will do tonight, is record some Voyager and Phatty material. then one can try if he can post something that comes close to it....

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, right?

Beware, i am not saying that VSTi's are less, or that you can not find your sound in software. I am mereley saying that there is a distinct difference which is appreciated by some.....

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Apparently anyone who doesn't use hardware, steals software from The Pirate Bay...lol To the guy above me. Some people actually write your track off as garbage without listening, upon hearing that you didn't use hardware. Or upon hearing that you used a daw less than a grand. Yeah, those people exist, most of them run labels. Most of them are also fucking retarded. Unfortianlly, we are still stuck in the "its now how you use it, its what you use" stage of life.

Ok, this is just nuts. Seriously! This has NEVER been true, and will NEVER be true.

I won�t respond to any crap reply to this statement.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir ...Some people actually write your track off as garbage without listening, upon hearing that you didn't use hardware. Or upon hearing that you used a daw less than a grand. ...

wow, what a load of bull. Do you think if you send a label the phattest tune ever that they will discard it once they find out from your myspace that you only use VSTi's and don't have hardware? NO! they'll sign you regardless of the TOOLS you use.

That's not the sentiments ive encountered. Ive actually walked into a music store and the owner made fun because I used software synths..lol This was in 2006

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