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-- 15 Percent of Americans Have No Religion
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Whilst this is certainly true, one camp is a little more complicated than that. Atheist: there is no god. Theist: there is a god. And he believes this And this And this And this And this He wants you to behave like this Will do this to you if you don�t Etc etc etc Now, tell me again who the burden of proof is on again????

I'm not arguing about burden of proof. Just stating neither side can provide an absolute proof.

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Originally posted by Aortik If there does exist a creator God, then his existence is apodeictic. Your point is moot.

If a creator God exists, his existence is self-evident? No shit!?

That's what all the believers have been saying for centuries...

You claimed that nobody can either prove, nor disprove, the existence of God. Were God to exist, somebody could prove as such through absolute evidence... But if he didn't, then nobody could prove his existence, making your statement true only in the scenario that there is not a God.

So in a sense, you are right... but that doesn't nullify my point.

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Originally posted by Aortik You claimed that nobody can either prove, nor disprove, the existence of God. Were God to exist, somebody could prove as such through absolute evidence... But if he didn't, then nobody could prove his existence, making your statement true only in the scenario that there is not a God. So in a sense, you are right... but that doesn't nullify my point.

That's really bad philosophy. No decent philosopher, theologian or scientist would agree with such a statement.

This has been discussed to death and the burden of absolute proof cannot be placed on either side.

I find the evidence sufficient, therefore I believe. I find the evidence for atheism insufficient.

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Originally posted by Aortik You claimed that nobody can either prove, nor disprove, the existence of God.

Yesssss.

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Were God to exist, somebody could prove as such through absolute evidence...

What absolute evidence would this be? A creator god would not exist within our space-time framework and would thus be undetectable/unmeasurable/etc.

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But if he didn't, then nobody could prove his existence, making your statement true only in the scenario that there is not a God.

If there was no creator god, then nobody could prove his existence? Ok. Well. This is true whether a creator god exists or not. The divine is unmeasurable.

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So in a sense, you are right... but that doesn't nullify my point.

You made an absolute statement as to the existence of a creator god. I'm simply stating that such an absolute statement is illogical.

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Originally posted by Alex Come on Lebez

Come on Alex...Do you or do you not believe the main stories in Christianity? The virgin birth..the turning water into wine...faith healing...the fact that Jesus died and came back to life. You believe in the literal history of these "miracles" don't you? And if you're willing to believe this, what's so far-fetched about believing the other fantasy in the bible?

My main problem with Christians isn't their belief in fantasy..It's how that clouds and limits them (and their children) intellectually. When kids are taught that the world was created in 7 days..yet we know through science that during the first 7 billion days it was nothing but a plasma cloud. They say everything (including man) sprung into life exactly as it is now within the week of creation, but carbon dating proves the existence of animals on earth hundreds of millions of years before man arrived..and that the earth is billions of years old.. I've seen creationists make excuses and call this false evidence planted by God to "test their faith".. Ugh..I wouldn't want handicaps like these to be placed on my worst enemy's children..and certainly not mine.

Even today the creationists are trying to get evolution thrown out of textbooks and trying to get vital stem cell research banned. Religion as a whole is just holding humanity back and has been doing so for centuries. It's time to throw off the shackles of mysticism and see what humanity can accomplish through pure reason for a change.

My issue is with those books. Obviously man made but the planet on the other hand isnt. How fucking big can this universe actually be?

pretty f*cking big..certainly bigger than the writers of the bible thought.. We are basically a tiny rock orbiting around a relatively insignificant sun along with 8 other planets..and our sun is but one of 300 BILLION suns (stars) that is orbiting around a supermassive black hole in the center of our galaxy..a galaxy which is but one of 300-400 billion galaxies in the visible universe.

So yeah the universe is pretty f*ckin big..yet another reason I find the adam/eve version of creation unbearably laughable.

Primitive understanding based on absolutely nothing but opinion and misinformation.

Typical.

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Originally posted by Alex Primitive understanding based on absolutely nothing but opinion and misinformation.

i'll take "the bible" for 900 points alex!!

Good thing I don't take it 100% literally

I wish I could just say I didn't care what people think, but I do genuinely believe it and think it will help people. I guess it makes me an idiot to a lot of people (that I don't care about), yet I'll keep trying to point out the misconceptions people have and hopefully at the very least people will let the issue thaw out a little instead of the absolute nastiness and hate that gets thrown towards religion around here.

Insulting religion and Christianity by saying it's "Fantasy" or all the other names Richard Dawkins comes up with is proof to me that the Atheist is simply insecure in their position and feel the need to insult the other because they can't come up with anything worthwhile to say apart from "God doesn't exist, religion = violence" etc etc.

It will be interesting to see what this generation has to say on their deathbeds. With 60-80 years still to go in life it's easy to be reassured by the prospect of becoming dust and nothing more, but give it a few decades and I wonder how comforting that idea will be when you're shitting yourself daily and waiting for it to be over.

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Originally posted by Alex Primitive understanding based on absolutely nothing but opinion and misinformation. Typical.

Sounds like religon to me.

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS Sounds like religon to me.

2 atheists, same generic posts.

Boring

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Originally posted by Alex 2 atheists, same generic posts.

oh come on, i made a jeopardy joke which was perfect coz your name is alex!

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Originally posted by Alex I wish I could just say I didn't care what people think, but I do genuinely believe it and think it will help people. I guess it makes me an idiot to a lot of people (that I don't care about), yet I'll keep trying to point out the misconceptions people have and hopefully at the very least people will let the issue thaw out a little instead of the absolute nastiness and hate that gets thrown towards religion around here.

i dont think anyone here thinks youre an idiot alex

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Originally posted by Alex Insulting religion and Christianity by saying it's "Fantasy" or all the other names Richard Dawkins comes up with is proof to me that the Atheist is simply insecure in their position and feel the need to insult the other because they can't come up with anything worthwhile to say apart from "God doesn't exist, religion = violence" etc etc.

some might argue that calling a spade a spade is what is necessary after years of appeasement of, or subservience to, religious ideals. i dont think i could feel insecure about my lack of belief in god. its probably the only part of my belief system that poses no intellectual ambivalence.

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Originally posted by Alex It will be interesting to see what this generation has to say on their deathbeds.

its great you think i'll live so long but given my habits and lifestyle ive probably only got 30 years left, max :/

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Originally posted by Alex With 60-80 years still to go in life it's easy to be reassured by the prospect of becoming dust and nothing more, but give it a few decades and I wonder how comforting that idea will be when you're shitting yourself daily and waiting for it to be over.

the only idea that i find uncomfortable is that our societies will still be so steeped in christian thought-processes that euthanasia is but a european fantasy

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Originally posted by Alex It will be interesting to see what this generation has to say on their deathbeds. With 60-80 years still to go in life it's easy to be reassured by the prospect of becoming dust and nothing more, but give it a few decades and I wonder how comforting that idea will be when you're shitting yourself daily and waiting for it to be over.

Hahaha, there's a much more obvious reason why your prospects are better with senile old men than healthy, rational adults. It's a shame that it eludes you...

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Originally posted by Arbiter Hahaha, there's a much more obvious reason why your prospects are better with senile old men than healthy, rational adults. It's a shame that it eludes you...

It's a shame the obvious cynicism and sarcasm eluded you before you posted what you did.

Bravo sir!

obligatory..

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Originally posted by Aortik There is no God, but this doesn't stop people from pretending as such. If you think this is wrong, then keep in mind that the burden of proof has been upon you for thousands of years and you've only succeeded in providing reasons why nobody in their right mind should listen to you. Are you even aware of how silly you look? Don't roll your eyes at me, you look ridiculous.

Faith is personal and it shouldn't rely on convincing others - pentecostalism is not as common as many believe. In other words, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything - other than that I have the right to believe whatever I want without condemnation.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Faith is personal and it shouldn't rely on convincing others - pentecostalism is not as common as many believe. In other words, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything - other than that I have the right to believe whatever I want without condemnation.

are they condemned for believing or are they condemned for their actions?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN are they condemned for believing or are they condemned for their actions?

Condemnation is perhaps the wrong word, but it does get kind of annoying whenever a thread on religion crops up in here, as an army of atheists storms in saying "anyone who believes in God is stupid and represents everything wrong in the world" - especially when it's inevitably followed by someone pondering whether the world would be a better place without people who have faith in something other than what everyone can see as self-evident.

hey, at least we're not killing anyone over it

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Faith is personal and it shouldn't rely on convincing others - pentecostalism is not as common as many believe. In other words, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything - other than that I have the right to believe whatever I want without condemnation.

Personal faith is all well and good, I don't really give a shit that people are open about their beliefs, it's their decision and I would be foolish to think it in my power to convince them otherwise.

But religion does not have to be vulgar and fanatic and extreme in order to have a drastic effect upon you and I. Christianity in America, for example, is an immense, tax-exempt organization that posesses no minor political leverage. It has seeped its way into our minds, ingraining a mode of thought in which hypocrisy is seeming inevitable. It is in our schools, in our oaths, on our money, in our names, our symbols, our neighbourhoods - there is, of course, a degree that must be allowed merely due to cultural transmission, but all of this is far, far beyond mere personal faith - it's become an institution, a business, and one so successful it has become an hegemony.

Yes, there is a degree where my grievances are merely bias and bitching over something I cannot change and do not have any personal stake in, but when any self-appraised "religion of peace" holds so much power, it has become taboo to even question its validity, it has become a force of violence, and all too often manifests itself as such.

Belief and religion have a lot to do with one another, but faith [belief] is a single thing - religion is merely the meme that has spawned from it.

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Originally posted by Alex Good thing I don't take it 100% literally

I don't believe you. I have faith that you take the bible at least somewhat literally, and I cannot be wrong because it is my belief.

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I wish I could just say I didn't care what people think, but I do genuinely believe it and think it will help people. I guess it makes me an idiot to a lot of people (that I don't care about), yet I'll keep trying to point out the misconceptions people have and hopefully at the very least people will let the issue thaw out a little instead of the absolute nastiness and hate that gets thrown towards religion around here.

Oh yes, when we are exceedingly critical of everything else, it is all too often mistaken as being discerning and pragmatic, sometimes pedantic - but when the sovereignty and validity of religious powers are called into question, it's absolute hatred and nastiness.

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Insulting religion and Christianity by saying it's "Fantasy" or all the other names Richard Dawkins comes up with is proof to me that the Atheist is simply insecure in their position and feel the need to insult the other because they can't come up with anything worthwhile to say apart from "God doesn't exist, religion = violence" etc etc.

Your being insulted by what other people think of your religion is proof to me of your own insecurity, and the fact that you only assign worth to things which agree with your sensibilities is further testament to that.

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It will be interesting to see what this generation has to say on their deathbeds. With 60-80 years still to go in life it's easy to be reassured by the prospect of becoming dust and nothing more, but give it a few decades and I wonder how comforting that idea will be when you're shitting yourself daily and waiting for it to be over.

For someone who consistently claims that Christianity is not the religion of fear and violence people seem to conceive it as, you're not doing terribly well for your case by asserting that people become religious out of irrational fear of death and loneliness. But if it's any consolation, I appreciate your reduction nevertheless.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Condemnation is perhaps the wrong word, but it does get kind of annoying whenever a thread on religion crops up in here, as an army of atheists storms in saying "anyone who believes in God is stupid and represents everything wrong in the world" - especially when it's inevitably followed by someone pondering whether the world would be a better place without people who have faith in something other than what everyone can see as self-evident.

I do agree, it's a somewhat annoying measure at times, there are a lot of amazing things religion has brought about, and I do not wish to be in a world completely devoid of belief. Every religion I know of has at least some merit, culturally and dogmatically, and I do not wish them struck from the Earth.

We live in a very unstable world and in a vicious society neither fair nor consistent - religion is a part of this, yes, but it is far from the whole of it.

I cannot say for sure whether there is a God or not - my comment before was merely a rise. Evidence can be an exceedingly subjective thing; you can see the universe as proof that something exists, therefore something was created, but to earnestly believe that some creator has assigned the world of humans a variety of differing opinions on how best to appease him or love him or whatever seems an exceedingly insubstantial claim supported by its very ambiguity and appeal to the imaginative nature of human beings in the first place. It is this same imagination which has brought about art and literature and music, but these things exist only for beauty and stimulation - they do not require belief nor faith in order to live up to their full potential because they are fiction. Religion however demands that you invest faith in something that is apparently afraid to let itself be known - it cannot rise to its potential and influence otherwise.

Atheism is not a belief system. Atheists are not trying to convert, nor to consume the ideals of others in some attempt to assert power and influence. Rather, it is a deconstructive mode which seeks to disestablish something which has allowed to be taken far too seriously for far too long. Yes, parallels can be drawn in an attempt to reconcile atheism with other belief systems, but these claims are, at best, merely an exhibition of the very memes and movements which indicate the spread of religion in the first place; Competence, relative as it is, has a transmissive nature that is universal amongst any contagious social logic, including religious... uh, logic.

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