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Like what was said before about planning everything out, beforehand. I have mentally planned things in the past and it all sounded good in my head, as it does for most people.

But then when it comes to realising the thoughts into solid music, I can never find the right sounds or get the exact right rhythm, and seeing as I am the type of person to spend hours on end on a single piece of a song, it does not help.

I shall try some methods that have been explained in this thread. Thanks for the advise, guys. Keep it coming.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It doesn't? Almost all jazz and blues are at least part improv. And I've known musicians who could do it with classical music too. The reason why classical composers sat down and wrote it on a score sheet was because there was no other permanent way to record it. If you're in a sequencer environment, you can record everything. It's better than a score sheet because you can just erase or change the parts that don't work. It helps if you know enough about the theory of composition to be deliberate about the process and not be trying combinations of notes and chords and melodies randomly, but why on earth you would suggest that music needs to be composed with a paper and pencil is beyond me. In the digital age, that's the most inefficient means imaginable. I don't know what bands you've worked with, but most bands actually produce music by just jamming, and writing down (or even simply memorizing) what worked after the session. Most producers, likewise. Most composers will use score editing software, not an actual score sheet. Anyway, my original point stands; inspiration doesn't really exist, it's a label you slap on after you've forgotten how much painstaking effort it really took to complete something.

Who said anything about a score sheet? I said write the song before you enter the studio. So you have a plan to go by and are not making it up as you go. I do this by making a midi file of the whole track.

All i'm saying is it helps a WHOLE lot.

I know your not going to argue that doing things randomly with utterly no vision or plan what so ever, is more efficient then coming up with a song and a plan for how it sounds beforehand. We are not a bunch of monkies on typewriters, we have the capacity to plan things out. Why wouldn't you want to do that? When an architect builds a building do you think they just stand around and go "yeah throw some bricks there, some plywood here..nail that down... etc etc" No, they have a vision for the building as it will be when its done, its the same if you want to make relevent music. Sure you can make music the random way, but no one will remember you or care, because your music will be so common and uninspired no one will want to care.

Doing things "as you go" will only take you so far.

And also, most jazz and blues suck, because its just random improv. That music has very little merit. Give a bunch of non-musicians instruments and tell them to play and you have jazz, and because people are nice they still call it music..PFT

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I know your not going to argue that doing things randomly with utterly no vision or plan what so ever.

Who said anything about no vision or no plan?

Making music is the plan, and the vision comes after you have made something.

I often find that when I think album or concept album, I loose track and inspiration, probably because I have set myself a goal that technically is achievable but because I haven�t broken it down into smaller goals, can seem a bit daunting given the time constraints that apply to my life.

You want to get into the habit of setting yourself small achievable goals that enable you to see your progress and will give you a sense of achievement making it easier to move on to the next step. Sometimes setting a goal that�s too big can actually trigger a certain level of defiance in me and when my creative freedom is restricted I tend to write music that I am not happy with. Then when I mentally ditch the idea it seems like a weight has been lifted and the creative process tends to start flowing again.

Cronodevir,

Writing things in a midi score isn�t a bad Idea as yes you can get a whole concept planned and indeed make a well structured piece of music. However, to dismiss the idea of spontaneity is totally nuts.
Take this as an example, The Swedish band �Roxette� wrote one of their biggest hits with a guitar and a suitcase doing the percussion. It was a random Jam that happened in a hotel room that captured the moment for them and just worked musically. This wasn�t planned and nobody wrote anything down, they just played. When it came to recording it in the studio they actually took the suitcase with them as the regular percussive methods i.e. drums etc. didn�t catch the same feeling. So they went with the original spontaneity that spawned the song in the first place and mic�d up the suitcase.

I don�t agree with what you say about the lack of harmonies in trance and would have to question what you have been listening to? Suggesting that all trance music or EDM for that matter is created by someone sitting randomly loading patches is borderline insulting to a large amount of actually very talented people including a lot of people on this forum, it would also imply that you are somewhat out of touch with different types of EDM. Not everything is about harmony, and is often groove and rhythm based which are deeper rooted in the human sprit than structure or harmonic eloquence. There is a time and a place for everything of course but dance music is meant to get people laid, not to make them take notes.
It also implies that you look down on us.

Classical composers didn�t have the luxury of having a whole orchestra in front of them, or have the library of sounds that we have today available to them. Furthermore, if you take a classical composition in its entirety let�s say Fur Elise as an example. Whilst the part that everyone remembers can be revered and considered a beautiful piece of music, if you listen to the rest of it there are sections in there where you have to ask yourself what the heck Beethoven was thinking, structured? Yes, totally, but sounds confusing and random at times.

If you sat down and planned everything as you are suggesting you take away the true essence of the human spirit, we thrive on the moment, and brilliance can be spur of the moment that can be triggered by the smallest thing and is personal to each and every one of us.

Diginut speaks of Jazz musicians, a very good example, these guys do a lot of improv, Blue guitarists do a lot of improv too and the same can be said for many if not all other music styles. What you are alluding to appears to be more along the lines of quality musicianship which I agree is valuable, but isn�t the same thing as inspiration.

"And also, most jazz and blues suck, because its just random improv. That music has very little merit. Give a bunch of non-musicians instruments and tell them to play and you have jazz, and because people are nice they still call it music..PFT"
And you are an authority on this because?




Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44

Yes exactly, great post! To me this method is proven to work!

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 I often find that when I think album or concept album, I loose track and inspiration, probably because I have set myself a goal that technically is achievable but because I haven�t broken it down into smaller goals, can seem a bit daunting given the time constraints that apply to my life. You want to get into the habit of setting yourself small achievable goals that enable you to see your progress and will give you a sense of achievement making it easier to move on to the next step. Sometimes setting a goal that�s too big can actually trigger a certain level of defiance in me and when my creative freedom is restricted I tend to write music that I am not happy with. Then when I mentally ditch the idea it seems like a weight has been lifted and the creative process tends to start flowing again. Cronodevir, Writing things in a midi score isn�t a bad Idea as yes you can get a whole concept planned and indeed make a well structured piece of music. However, to dismiss the idea of spontaneity is totally nuts. Take this as an example, The Swedish band �Roxette� wrote one of their biggest hits with a guitar and a suitcase doing the percussion. It was a random Jam that happened in a hotel room that captured the moment for them and just worked musically. This wasn�t planned and nobody wrote anything down, they just played. When it came to recording it in the studio they actually took the suitcase with them as the regular percussive methods i.e. drums etc. didn�t catch the same feeling. So they went with the original spontaneity that spawned the song in the first place and mic�d up the suitcase. I don�t agree with what you say about the lack of harmonies in trance and would have to question what you have been listening to? Suggesting that all trance music or EDM for that matter is created by someone sitting randomly loading patches is borderline insulting to a large amount of actually very talented people including a lot of people on this forum, it would also imply that you are somewhat out of touch with different types of EDM. Not everything is about harmony, and is often groove and rhythm based which are deeper rooted in the human sprit than structure or harmonic eloquence. There is a time and a place for everything of course but dance music is meant to get people laid, not to make them take notes. It also implies that you look down on us. Classical composers didn�t have the luxury of having a whole orchestra in front of them, or have the library of sounds that we have today available to them. Furthermore, if you take a classical composition in its entirety let�s say Fur Elise as an example. Whilst the part that everyone remembers can be revered and considered a beautiful piece of music, if you listen to the rest of it there are sections in there where you have to ask yourself what the heck Beethoven was thinking, structured? Yes, totally, but sounds confusing and random at times. If you sat down and planned everything as you are suggesting you take away the true essence of the human spirit, we thrive on the moment, and brilliance can be spur of the moment that can be triggered by the smallest thing and is personal to each and every one of us. Diginut speaks of Jazz musicians, a very good example, these guys do a lot of improv, Blue guitarists do a lot of improv too and the same can be said for many if not all other music styles. What you are alluding to appears to be more along the lines of quality musicianship which I agree is valuable, but isn�t the same thing as inspiration. "And also, most jazz and blues suck, because its just random improv. That music has very little merit. Give a bunch of non-musicians instruments and tell them to play and you have jazz, and because people are nice they still call it music..PFT" And you are an authority on this because? Cheers Nem

Spontaneity is fine, but it shouldn't be your main vehicle of expression..sitting around hoping you get inspired by something. Music is like 98% planning and 2% inspiration. When you have a band that comes out with an album every 2 years do you think all of it is just "they got inspired"? [that is, when an album isn't just a lump of random tracks, like it is in pretty much all EDM]Everyone I know who make proper albums have every track of the album planned and ready before they even enter the studio once. And these same people make money on their albums. Who in EDM makes money on their albums? You? Joe? Bob?

Harmonies is music, a rhythmic line is just.. a rhythmic line, its meant to back something, but in a lot of trance it doesn't back anything, its being rhythmic for the sake of bring rhythmic. I do look down on most trance these days because its just plain bad. Trance in the 80's and 90's wasn't about harmony at all, it was just rhythm and loops, most of it was nice. Today is as if trance producers just discovered theory and are barely able to implement even the most basic aspects of it or the simply implement it poorly, many artist today are just glorified sound designers. And they took the thing that made trance awesome, out of it, and that is repetition.

Though, I don't dance, nor do I spend time in raves and clubs and stuff, so I guess it makes sense I have a very different prospective on what music is.

Well, what ever works for you, you go on ahead and do that. But every time you come across that thing people call writers block or what ever, remember the methods you use to put a song into reality. And think about them.

I don't have to be an authority on jazz, I hear jazz, I get annoyed. Its that simple. Its all this purple floaty saxaphony stuff made by people who took music and shit on it. And thought they were being cultured because they put African rhythm to European theory and thought they were doing something new. Jazz, Blues, R&B...makes me gringe.

EDIT: Btw, i'm not complete cold. I did a jamsession yesterday which was mostly random, and we got 10 minutes of music from it..i'll upload it in a minute.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Well, what ever works for you, you go on ahead and do that. But every time you come across that thing people call writers block or what ever, remember the methods you use to put a song into reality. And think about them.

Writers block is a lack of creativity to be honest, how can you be creative if need to plan everything ?
Its all about trying new things and thus get a vision from the things you are trying, you want ACCIDENTS to happen in music, and that is something that CANNOT be planned.
Almost every memorable track out there are pure accidents that happened during experimentation, testing and trying stuff.
Planning stuff is something you do when you know inside your head the exact music you are going to make.
The big majority of tracks released these days are PLANNED, thats why they mostly sound the same.

I think as far as planning its the other way around.
You are creative in your planning.



This stuff was made in a jamsession, so you might hear random sounds or a few off key melodies.

I did mostly beat bass and secondary leads, cyber did some beat and almost all the leads.

This was all made with vstunnel.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Spontaneity is fine, but it shouldn't be your main vehicle of expression..sitting around hoping you get inspired by something. Music is like 98% planning and 2% inspiration. When you have a band that comes out with an album every 2 years do you think all of it is just "they got inspired"? [that is, when an album isn't just a lump of random tracks, like it is in pretty much all EDM]Everyone I know who make proper albums have every track of the album planned and ready before they even enter the studio once. And these same people make money on their albums. Who in EDM makes money on their albums? You? Joe? Bob? Harmonies is music, a rhythmic line is just.. a rhythmic line, its meant to back something, but in a lot of trance it doesn't back anything, its being rhythmic for the sake of bring rhythmic. I do look down on most trance these days because its just plain bad. Trance in the 80's and 90's wasn't about harmony at all, it was just rhythm and loops, most of it was nice. Today is as if trance producers just discovered theory and are barely able to implement even the most basic aspects of it or the simply implement it poorly, many artist today are just glorified sound designers. And they took the thing that made trance awesome, out of it, and that is repetition. Though, I don't dance, nor do I spend time in raves and clubs and stuff, so I guess it makes sense I have a very different prospective on what music is. Well, what ever works for you, you go on ahead and do that. But every time you come across that thing people call writers block or what ever, remember the methods you use to put a song into reality. And think about them. I don't have to be an authority on jazz, I hear jazz, I get annoyed. Its that simple. Its all this purple floaty saxaphony stuff made by people who took music and shit on it. And thought they were being cultured because they put African rhythm to European theory and thought they were doing something new. Jazz, Blues, R&B...makes me gringe. EDIT: Btw, i'm not complete cold. I did a jamsession yesterday which was mostly random, and we got 10 minutes of music from it..i'll upload it in a minute.

Actually, yeah I feel you on quite a few points there.

Trance these days is actually too much about theory and not enough about good melodies or quality musicianship, so yeah there is a lot of perfect sounding monotony out there.

RnB makes me want to scream... can't stand it.

Although for me, if I plan stuff too much then it takes the fun out of it and whilst it's nice to get signed, it can't be my main focus. I like what I do, but some of the things that have sold the best for me is stuff that has come to me in the space of 3 hours when I had inspiration.
I think we are probably talking about more or less the same thing but just have a different workflow process.

Cheers
Nem

One of my favorite songs Ive made - Gnomeregan - took 5 hours to make..lol it was random and spontaneous. But in all my life, this spontaneity has only happened once. So for me its very prudent to have a plan before I dive in.



Its a very melodicy harmony sounding jungle track. Its a wee bit loud too I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Writing things in a midi score isn�t a bad Idea as yes you can get a whole concept planned and indeed make a well structured piece of music. However, to dismiss the idea of spontaneity is totally nuts. Take this as an example, The Swedish band �Roxette� wrote one of their biggest hits with a guitar and a suitcase doing the percussion. It was a random Jam that happened in a hotel room that captured the moment for them and just worked musically. This wasn�t planned and nobody wrote anything down, they just played. When it came to recording it in the studio they actually took the suitcase with them as the regular percussive methods i.e. drums etc. didn�t catch the same feeling. So they went with the original spontaneity that spawned the song in the first place and mic�d up the suitcase.

I think it's easier to plan your song before you decide to work on the production aspect of it. It's hard for me to just "wing" the whole production, maybe not for some people!

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