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-- People Steal From Artists, Artists Steal From Programmers
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quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You're making assumptions you can't prove, and that nobody against pirating has really proven. Anybody can quote sales numbers and download statistics, but nobody is really studying how crack software/pirated music is affecting sales. People download pirated software to use as trials, and some people download software because they are 15 years old and have no money. How could you count that particular download as a "loss" if the boy wasn't going to purchase it in the first place? Just because someone downloads something, it does not mean it was worthy of a purchase. That's one concept most people don't understand. From a consumer standpoint, copy protection is a hassle and it's not benefiting me as a consumer. The code dedicated to copy protection is wasted harddrive space on my computer. In the grand scheme of things, it's not really a big deal, but I'd still rather not have to deal with it.

i agree to a certain point. But sales are much stronger now and it will result in better products. I've never been bothered by dongles. Except for UAD and powercore cards.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Who referred to the pirate bay? Cubase SX3 [which uses syncrosoft] is cracked. 4 is also but works only 25% of the time.

it uses the syncrosoft design from like 7 years ago. And cubase 4 sounds similar to how often your brain seems to work. I think i will pass.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir But its really just a false victory, because everything else out there is cracked, usually within a day or two after its released. And cubase by far offers nothing so unique that it balances out the need for a dongle.

Yes it does. The people who built it need to be able to pay for their food and houses. Without a doubt this synchrosoft protection costs 1000s of euros. But it weighs up to the increase of sales. Can't blame em.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Also software isn't a physical good. You do not loose any assets regardless to how copied it is.

let me phrase this in a way you might grasp.

Software is like your crackwhore mom. Sure , no matter how many people might fuck it without paying, she still has her twat but she definately has lost an asset and that is time. Make sense ?

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Yes it does. The people who built it need to be able to pay for their food and houses. Without a doubt this synchrosoft protection costs 1000s of euros. But it weighs up to the increase of sales. Can't blame em.

Where is this record of increased sales do to the use of a dongle?

What I was saying is whether the person buys or downloads the software, the dongle is considered a downside. And in the eyes of a producer Cubase doesn't offer anything so amazing than anything else available [flstudio, logic, ableton, reason]that the dongle downside becomes irrelevant.

Another way to say it: What feature does cubase offer that would make someone who otherwise hates the dongle, not mind the dongle, and use Cubase, instead of another DAW that has no dongle?

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Where is this record of increased sales do to the use of a dongle?

Come on are you that stupid? What other viable reason is there to use a dongle?

You keep on amazing me!

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Come on are you that stupid? What other viable reason is there to use a dongle?

A company that thinks its helping them? A company that knows nothing about copy-protection software?

EA Games used copy protection in Spore, it didn't help their sales. So how do you know a dongle helped Cubase sales? You don't.

Just because a company uses copy protection, doesn't automatically mean their sales will go up.

And that's the exact reason EA stopped doing so and Steinberg doesn't.

k.thx.bye.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You're making assumptions you can't prove, and that nobody against pirating has really proven. Anybody can quote sales numbers and download statistics, but nobody is really studying how crack software/pirated music is affecting sales. People download pirated software to use as trials, and some people download software because they are 15 years old and have no money. How could you count that particular download as a "loss" if the boy wasn't going to purchase it in the first place? Just because someone downloads something, it does not mean it was worthy of a purchase. That's one concept most people don't understand. From a consumer standpoint, copy protection is a hassle and it's not benefiting me as a consumer. The code dedicated to copy protection is wasted harddrive space on my computer. In the grand scheme of things, it's not really a big deal, but I'd still rather not have to deal with it.

The same could be said about music, we all like to "preview" stuff right ? well... people are downloading music and software illegally simply because they CAN and will always get away with it.

I do not believe there is a single doubt that Cubase is benefiting on their uncracked super protection.

Its a hassle yes, all copy protections are hassles, if you loose your dongle then you are fucked, and need to buy the program again.

Because they [Stienberg] still use it isn't proof that their sales are going up.

That is like saying because the movie industry still uses blur-ray copy prevention technology, that the blu-ray copy technology was successful. [Blu-Ray copy prevention failed miserably]

Starforce is still used by many companies, and its utterly horrible, its basically malware. Many companies still use it, and its incredibly easy to crack.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir That is like saying because the movie industry still uses blur-ray copy prevention technology, that the blu-ray copy technology was successful. [Blu-Ray copy prevention failed miserably]

Actually it did not fail, for movies yeah everything fails there, same with music.. you just cannot protect something that can be recorded.

But the fact that you cannot get Playstation 3 games cracked shows that Blu Ray protection is really good.

Sure, but as we all know this thing is a matter of time. And that is the point, eventually somewhere someone will crack it, doesn't matter how good the author things the protection is, someone will crack it, and distribute it, and it will be common place.

quote:

Originally posted by palm who the fuck cares about piracy, money, or programmers anyway, its all about simplicity! people will choose the easiest way so if the companys start thinking how we can buy their stuff easily people will do it. meanwhile let them fucking loose money, companys not willing to change deserves it imo. There are some companies that do it right though, Proppelerhead is one of them, I will always buy their Reason upgrades just beacuse its so fucking easy and good. EDM music also where willing to change and I buy EDM from mp3-portals but when it comes to POP or Rock? Fuck it let them loose it, their not working anyway their just trying to live for free.

Hell yeah...right on with Reason!

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle The same could be said about music, we all like to "preview" stuff right ? well... people are downloading music and software illegally simply because they CAN and will always get away with it. I do not believe there is a single doubt that Cubase is benefiting on their uncracked super protection. Its a hassle yes, all copy protections are hassles, if you loose your dongle then you are fucked, and need to buy the program again.

You have:

-The guy downloading stuff to avoid paying
-The extended trial period trial guy who buys
-The extended trial period trial guy who doesn't buy
-The guy who is downloading because he has no money
-The guy who downloads to do one small operation, that he wouldn't pay for
-The guy who downloads and gives to his friend(friend could be any one of the above)
-The guy who downloads for the sake of downloading

Who's who?

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You have: -The guy downloading stuff to avoid paying -The extended trial period trial guy who buys -The extended trial period trial guy who doesn't buy -The guy who is downloading because he has no money -The guy who downloads to do one small operation, that he wouldn't pay for -The guy who downloads and gives to his friend(friend could be any one of the above) -The guy who downloads for the sake of downloading Who's who?

-The guy who downloads because the program is not offered in his country.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Sure, but as we all know this thing is a matter of time. And that is the point, eventually somewhere someone will crack it, doesn't matter how good the author things the protection is, someone will crack it, and distribute it, and it will be common place.

Most likely yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You have: -The guy downloading stuff to avoid paying -The extended trial period trial guy who buys -The extended trial period trial guy who doesn't buy -The guy who is downloading because he has no money -The guy who downloads to do one small operation, that he wouldn't pay for -The guy who downloads and gives to his friend(friend could be any one of the above) -The guy who downloads for the sake of downloading Who's who?

There is loads of situations, but the main guy is the guy not paying for it because he doesnt have to

Programmers actually benefit from people "stealing", because those people actually end up marketing to people who buy the software. So if 10 People steal, they are getting 2 or 3 people to actually buy the software because the people who steal are recommending the software to others. Its called viral marketing. Also, the people who are stealing now because they have no money, when they do have money and a career, there is a good chance they will actually buy the software, even though in the past they had "borrowed" it.

Another benefit is, because this software really does not have much advertising space, so this viral marketing is very beneficial to the programmers in the long run. So at the end of the day, programmers who are actually making great software are getting enough people to buy the software because of the "stealing" to offset much of the stealing. It is actually impossible to build a successful VST product without a cracked version out there.

So when you have money and have a legit music making career, there is a good chance you will follow a more ethical route like buying all your software, that is what I would do without a doubt.

@Subtle

I don't know, its hard to gauge that, I would say that the people who speak on it most are the guys that do it because they don't have to pay. But who is to say they are the majority? I doubt, I think the country example is likely the majority.

Alot of places do not ship and/or local stores do not offer the software. Or the software is illegal in their country. China is a big example. Probably the biggest.

Also, you have people who download software so they can repackage it and sell it. In Lebenon for instance you can find a whole store with nothing but downloaded software.

Re: People Steal From Artists, Artists Steal From Programmers

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux how could you complain that someone pirates your music?

Who's complaining? I sure don't. In fact, I'd give my music away for free except that, literally, you can't give away this music. People won't listen to it if you do because they assume it sucks!

For the record, the only cracked software I use is Cubase SX 3. I use it because 1. software has a poor resale value 2. I've heard horror stories of retail cubase being slower and buggier than the cracked copy. I really don't feel like getting stuck with a piece of $400 software that I don't even want to use.

Oh and 3, you're a douche. Little Billy 12-year-old can't exactly spring $300 for a copy of Reason/FL Studio to make music. Piracy has spawned a generation of musicians, most horrible, many outstanding.

And besides, all the best software can't/will never be cracked. Logic, UAD, and the Virus|Powercore, for example.

Re: Re: People Steal From Artists, Artists Steal From Programmers

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo People won't listen to it if you do because they assume it sucks!

No no, I know a few artists who are pretty well known in the real world and on the net, they only give their music away for free.

You can be successful you just have to know how to present yourself.

The thing with this whole discussion is:

There are both PRO`s and CON`s about whether illegal downloading is good or bad.

Illegal downloads increase exposure, but decreases sales.

Uncrackable programs increase sales, but decreases exposure.

I mean take your pick!

This is also why this discussion will never end, but preventing people from actually getting something for free sounds to me like logically the most profitable choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Programmers actually benefit from people "stealing",

you forgot the word some. most don't. There is a reason people don't mention piracy at KVR. not to say you aren't right in some regards. But they usually only help the big companies that can have a long term marketing plan that involves piracy.

Perhaps some developpers on here can share some insight.

All the software (and hardware, obviously) in my studio is legit. I don't use anything I haven't paid for.

Cronodevir, some of your rationalisations are deplorable - that software is "simply 1s and 0s", that the value isn't diminished by someone downloading a pirate copy rather than paying for it.

What do you do for a living? Do you like getting paid for it? Why do you think the programmers, who spend years of their lives learning how to program, developing excellent music software, and keep improving it so we have better and better tools to use - why do you think these programmers don't deserve to get paid? A lot of software companies are not large faceless corporations who make billions by overcharging for products. Some of them are small teams of people who'd like to spend their time giving us fantastic tools.

Your view is extremely short-sighted. The more people buy products, the more companies will realise there's money to be made - improvements will come faster, more companies will develop products, our lives as artists will get better!

I think using cracked software for preview purposes is fine - it's good to get a sense of what the product is offering overall before making a purchase decision. I'll usually buy something very soon after trying it out. My basic rule is, all the tools used in my songs that anyone else gets to hear are legit, are paid for. No-one but me hears my "software trial" songs.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV you forgot the word some. most don't. There is a reason people don't mention piracy at KVR. not to say you aren't right in some regards. But they usually only help the big companies that can have a long term marketing plan that involves piracy. Perhaps some developpers on here can share some insight.

No. I didn't forget anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Most likely yes. There is loads of situations, but the main guy is the guy not paying for it because he doesnt have to

Proof?

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