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Re: Re: About those pesky "women's rights" in Iran

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Originally posted by ******** get the fuck out of here.

coming from a guy who said he'd never post in this forum anymore, and whose avatar says "offline - bye," this line is particularly ironic.

I agree with Cyrus King 100%.

I am very inclined to believe that many of the "Islamic Advancements" were made on behalf of closet dissidents of the religion and the caliphate. They kept their real beliefs to themselves, it would have been the only way they could remain alive and keep pursuing their passion. If you know the extremely structured edicts of the Quran and Hadiths, it is actually more logical to assume that people in areas of philosophy, science, art, music, etc. were feigning their "submission", and just making the best of the status quo at the time.

So yeah, pretty much what Cyrus said. But you have to realize that what may have started as an arab death cult is now a religion that is fully integrated into other ethnic cultures, and has been for a while. I understand where you are coming from since Arabic is a language that will always be the most noble in the Islamic world, and the rational opinion of linguists to say otherwise will be quickly discredited by Islamic Scholars.

History books have proven that Islam would have never grown to the grandeur it has now if it wasn't for Persia helping it.

The arabs were fighters, not administrators.

It's one of the biggest mistakes of ancient Persia to help this religion while we deprive people who believe in Persian constructed religions such as Zoroastrianism and Bahai'ism.

Most people think that i am an extremist when it comes to Israel becuase there is this assumption that i am seeing it from a middle eastern or muslim perspective.

Its actually the opposite.

although I despise the formation of Israel and its colonialist nature, i despise Islam even more for what it has done to the world, espescially my native land.

I have seen it with my own eyes, the eyes of my father and mother and the peoiple who speak about it from Iran. They HATE that religion. They would never truly worship an arab pedophile

I'm not going to bother responding in any meaningful detail to the rest of your drivel, absurd conjecture, or flat out mis-statements regarding 'Islam' and the rise of modern 'civilization' Cyrus, but to address one flawed and ignorant misconception regarding the history of the scientific method, it's genesis was very much inspired by a direct belief in Islamic monotheism, which I don't expect an 'extremist' atheist like you to appreciate and pretty much deny it regardless of historical records offering no contradiction. The only and last thing regarding this tangential topic I have any interest in correcting about your ignorant blind hateful perspective is the following.

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A devout Muslim, Ibn al-Haitham believed that human beings are flawed and only God is perfect. To discover the truth about nature, he reasoned, one had to eliminate human opinion and allow the universe to speak for itself through physical experiments. "The seeker after truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them," he wrote, "but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration."

http://www.ibnalhaytham.net/

I didn't really have you pegged as a stereo-typical PDD asshole, but since I'm not exactly a 'good' or terribly practicing Muslim, let me take the liberty to leave you with a few words based on your anti-Arab racism and anti-Islam venous bias, "fuck you too asshole." The moment you were ranting about how awesome Persians are and how much Arabs suck and accrediting pretty much all achievements of early Islamic civilization to Persians was when you made it obvious that you're just another blind nationalist full of shit.

Cheers.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not going to bother responding in any meaningful detail to the rest of your drivel, absurd conjecture, or flat out mis-statements regarding 'Islam' and the rise of modern 'civilization' Cyrus, but to address one flawed and ignorant misconception regarding the history of the scientific method, it's genesis was very much inspired by a direct belief in Islamic monotheism, which I don't expect an 'extremist' atheist like you to appreciate and pretty much deny it regardless of historical records offering no contradiction. The only and last thing regarding this tangential topic I have any interest in correcting about your ignorant blind hateful perspective is the following. http://www.ibnalhaytham.net/ I didn't really have you pegged as a stereo-typical PDD asshole, but since I'm not exactly a 'good' or terribly practicing Muslim, let me take the liberty to leave you with a few words based on your anti-Arab racism and anti-Islam venous bias, "fuck you too asshole." The moment you were ranting about how awesome Persians are and how much Arabs suck and accrediting pretty much all achievements of early Islamic civilization to Persians was when you made it obvious that you're just another blind nationalist full of shit. Cheers.

You are not understanding my perspective. PERSIA WAS MUCH BETTER OFF AND ON A WAAAAAAAAY BETTER COURSE in history before islam ravaged it.


Just stating the fact that a muslim created the scientific method doesnt change the fact this is rare. The teachings of islam didnt force him.. and like the other people say, must have been concluded becuase they had to say it had to do with god or whatever bullshit their caliphates wanted.. or they would have their heads chopped off.

Islam has brought MORE SHIT THAN GOOD to the middle east. Specifically persia, it destroyed what COULD HAVE BEEN

I am not racist against arabs, i just dont like the gulf arab culture and its religious creation. Im not fond of the Saudi arabian desert culture at all. Its archaic and backwards in its mentality, and Islam is essentially a cultural branch of the Saudi culture... its just the religious version of it.

its 2009 and women are not even allowed to drive there. .. oh and by the way, thats the same place where Mecca is!!! How proud muslims must be of this.

I will never ever ever accept this religion with my hand. It is evil in my eyes, it makes people into animals, tribal like and very violent. It makes them think like uneducated desert dwellers. That is why there is such a clash between modern society and this religion. On the one hand, humans want to naturally be free, while on the other, there is a religious institution barring them from fufulling this.

Im not going to get into deatil about these specifics, but this is my opinion.

Da Vinci had to say he loved christ infront of the Vatican, but im sure he was an atheist deep down.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Thats after the fact they invaded. Persia was doing very well and was very expressive in the arts and poetry and advances in sciences and other things before Islam came. Im sure they would have exceeded way past their islamic achievements if they were not conquered. This is just my opinion. Islam is the worst thing that happened to Persia. They have tried to remove our cultural norms like our Nowrooz tradition (even making some persians include the quran in the table that celebrates the beginning of spring), change our language, make us wear arab attire.. but in the end, it still hasnt worked. If you look at every single muslim nation, neighborhood within cities throughout the world, communitities.. they are all poor and feverently religius. Its not a coincidence that all muslim nations are ass backwards. Although i detest organized religion as a whole, Christians and Jews have evolved to look at their religion as a faith and not a way of life. Most muslims see islam as a way of life and not a faith... and thats where the problem is. At least Turkey is the first to exemplify this.. and look how good theyre doing. Theres a reason why most persians really hate arabs... it started from the days of Islam's invasion.

Perhaps they turn towards religion because they are poor, not being poor because of their religion. There are millions of utterly poor people whose only diversion from poverty is religious fervor.

+1 to Cyrus King

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Originally posted by Krypton Perhaps they turn towards religion because they are poor, not being poor because of their religion. There are millions of utterly poor people whose only diversion from poverty is religious fervor.

thats certainly not the rule. it's not even the exception.

religiousity knows no social class or boundries, in fact it's fundamental message is to trancend that.

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Originally posted by Q5echo religiousity knows no social class or boundries, in fact it's fundamental message is to trancend that.

I didn't say it was bounded by social class. I just think poverty is more a cause of religious fervor than religious fervor is of poverty. But I'm not saying it can't be the other way around. Religious fervor can result in an oppressive state where rampant poverty is the byproduct. In the case of Iran, religious fervor results in an oppressive state whose overbearing control of society and economy results in rampant poverty.

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Originally posted by Krypton In the case of Iran, religious fervor results in an oppressive state whose overbearing control of society and economy results in rampant poverty.

...and Saudi Arabia?

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Originally posted by Q5echo ...and Saudi Arabia?

I should have mentioned the circular logic behind it. Poverty can cause religious fervor which can result in an oppressive society which reinforces the poverty, and so the cycle continues.

What about Saudi Arabia? They have a much smaller population/GDP ratio than Iran.

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Originally posted by Krypton Poverty can cause religious fervor which can result in an oppressive society which reinforces the poverty, and so the cycle continues.

indeed, you may be involved in some circular logic about religiousity and poverty, i don't know, but this is not circular logic. if anything it's cyclical logic

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What about Saudi Arabia? They have a much smaller population/GDP ratio than Iran.

that doesn't make them a special case - religious frevor is as "rampant" there as anywhere else in the world, it just makes the economic gap they enjoy that much more great.

on balance, there is no reason why some parts of Iran (not all) live in such poverty and that it has something to do with what you said but is a combination of that and mostly just piss poor administration.

from June 29, 2009 the Brookings Institute:

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Iran: Poverty and Inequality Since the Revolution Iran, Middle East, Economic Development, Inequality, Education Djavad Salehi-Isfahani, Nonresident Guest Scholar, Global Economy and Development, Wolfensohn Center for Development, Middle East Youth Initiative The Middle East Institute Thirty years ago, Ayatollah Khomeini proclaimed equity and social justice as the Revolution�s main objective. His successor, Ayatollah Khamene�i, continues to refer to social justice as the Revolution�s defining theme. Similarly, Presidents Khatami and Ahmadinejad, though they are from very different political persuasions, placed heavy emphasis on social justice in their political rhetoric. Yet the very fact that 30 years after the Revolution social justice continues to occupy the highest place in Iran�s political discourse implies that this goal of the Revolution remains as elusive as ever. Inside Iran the facts regarding the evolution of equality are hotly debated. However, data from the Statistical Center of Iran offer evidence of how inequality has changed in terms of household expenditures, education attainment, and access to health and basic services. The picture that emerges is a mixed one: success in improving the standard of living and the quality of life for the poor, and failure in improving the overall distribution of income. Inequality The most obvious, if not quantitatively most important, source of inequality in Iran is the rural-urban differential. Figure 1 shows that during the great economic downturn of 1984-88, average expenditures in rural and urban areas fell by 20% and 33%, respectively, narrowing the rural-urban gap in expenditures. Rural incomes continued to grow faster than urban, raising the rural-urban ratio to a historic high of 69% in 1990, before falling back to 53% in 2006. The widening rural-urban gap in the last 15 years has contributed significantly to the resilience of measured inequality in the country as a whole. Immediately following the Revolution, overall inequality fell substantially, by about 10 Gini points, from 0.56 to 0.46,[1] but has since remained fairly stable at levels well above those observed in countries such as Egypt (see Figure 2). It is nonetheless much lower than in Latin America. Rural inequality, which was much lower than urban inequality during the war years (1980-88), increased sharply after the war, reaching the urban level, most likely because of government policies such as ending the rationing (that had protected the poor from inflation during the war) and permitting a greater role for markets in setting prices. Significantly, during the first two years of the Ahmadinejad Administration (2005-06) inequality worsened in both rural and urban areas, possibly because higher inflation hurt those below the median income level more than those above it. This is not so much an indication that Ahmadinejad was insincere in promising redistribution but how difficult it is to redistribute income without fundamental changes in the country�s distribution of earning power (wealth and human capital) and political power, which determines access to government transfers from oil rent. Poverty Despite a lack of improvement in inequality, poverty has declined steadily in the last ten years. Figure 3 shows the proportion of individuals who were poor (the Headcount ratio) during 1984-2006 using separate rural and urban poverty lines.[2] Poverty rates increased sharply during 1984-88 but, contrary to popular belief, fell during the economic reconstruction and market reforms. Poverty rose again briefly when the economy had to adjust to the balance of payments crisis of 1994-95. Since then, poverty has declined steadily to an enviable level for middle-income developing countries.[3] Despite claims to the contrary, during the eight years of the Khatami Administration, poverty fell by more than 2 percentage points each year. Significantly, in the first two years of the Ahmadinejad government, urban poverty appears to have increased by 1.5 percentage points, or about 680,000 individuals (rural poverty remained unchanged). Given the huge inflow of resources into the economy in 2006 and the Ahmadinejad government�s active redistributive efforts, the increase in urban poverty is quite striking. The data for 2007 and 2008 are not available to reach a definitive conclusion on the current administration�s efforts at redistribution and poverty reduction, but the available evidence on inequality and urban poverty does not bode well for his re-election. Education Perhaps the greatest achievement of the Revolution during its 30-year history is the expansion of educational opportunities, especially for women and rural families. Figure 4 shows the impressive gain in education by the least educated group � rural women. Their average years of schooling increased from about 40% of their male counterparts for women born in the 1960s (who started school during the Shah�s White Revolution) to about 90% for those born in the late 1980s (who started school after the war with Iraq). Urban women have now surpassed urban men in average years of schooling, a phenomenon that led Iran�s Parliament to seriously consider and partially implement affirmative action for men in entering university![4] Increased access to free education from primary to university has equalized educational attainment between individuals. The Gini index of inequality of years of schooling for adults born in the 1950s was in excess of 0.60, compared to 0.35 for cohorts born 20 years later, which is a substantial decrease in education inequality in just one generation. However, there is evidence that educational attainment still depends greatly on family resources.[5] Education inequality is likely to worsen as private education, both at the university and high school levels, continues to expand. Health and basic services Another major equalizing achievement of the country in the last 30 years is reduced fertility, especially in rural areas, thanks mainly to increased education and improved access to health and other basic services (electricity and piped water). Together with women�s gains in education, family planning has substantially advanced gender equality in Iran, bringing social pressure to improve women�s status in law. In rural areas the average number of births per woman fell from about eight in the mid-1980s to about two in 2006. The poor�s access to basic services has substantially increased: during 1984-2004 access to electricity by the poorest quintile (bottom 25%) in rural areas increased from 37% to 94% and to piped water from 31% to 79%.[6] Remarkably, as a result of the extension of these services, by 2004, 80% of these households owned a refrigerator, 77% a television, and 76% a gas stove. Populist politics There are very few countries (e.g., South Korea) that have combined economic growth with increased equity. Iran is not one of them. Nevertheless, much has been achieved in terms of improving the lot of the poorest section of the population. Even so, many Iranians seem disappointed with the material improvements of the last 30 years. There are good reasons why. In the last ten years, a huge inflow of oil revenues has taken place without any improvement in income inequality. Added to this is a lack of government transparency, which has fueled suspicion about how the oil riches are being spent. Ahmadinejad�s populist rhetoric has intensified fears of corruption and distrust of the rich in a country where wealth accumulation is held in low esteem, no matter its sources. Indeed, the proper purpose of politics and governance in Iran is considered to be redistribution much more so than promoting economic growth. As the Revolution enters its fourth decade, with oil prices down for the foreseeable future and the disappointing results of the latest experience with populist politics already evident, it would be interesting to speculate if this narrow view of politics is likely to change. The June 2009 presidential election is a good time to find out. >LINK<

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Originally posted by Q5echo indeed, you may be involved in some circular logic about religiousity and poverty, i don't know, but this is not circular logic. if anything it's cyclical logic

You know what I mean...

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that doesn't make them a special case - religious frevor is as "rampant" there as anywhere else in the world, it just makes the economic gap they enjoy that much more great. on balance, there is no reason why some parts of Iran (not all) live in such poverty and that it has something to do with what you said but is a combination of that and mostly just piss poor administration. from June 29, 2009 the Brookings Institute:

It does make them a special case because Saudi Arabia can afford to be socialist theocracy and still maintain an above average standard of living, unlike Iran.

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Originally posted by Krypton It does make them a special case because Saudi Arabia can afford to be socialist theocracy and still maintain an above average standard of living, unlike Iran.

ok, but what does that have to do with religious fervor? nothing. they are independent of each other.

and Saudi Arabia is not a theocracy, btw, like Iran. nor is it socialist like Iran.

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Originally posted by Q5echo ok, but what does that have to do with religious fervor? nothing. they are independent of each other. and Saudi Arabia is not a theocracy, btw, like Iran. nor is it socialist like Iran.

They are a theocracy sanctioned by the monarchy. They have religious police...Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice...

And they are very socialist. The oil industry is owned by the government, Saudi Aramco, which produces 95+% of Saudi oil. They are ranked 59th on the 2009 Index of Economic Freedom. It can be safely said, they fit the criteria of a welfare state, especially with as heavily subsidized as they are..

http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/SaudiArabia

We can agree to disagree. I think the cycle of poverty and religious fervor does exist and plays a huge role in current events.

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