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-- Suggestions on two topics. 2 Handed Piano playing, arranging a track
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quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 I like your attitude Energy_3, It would be nice if some of these other Nuts would adopted it.

....likewise

Same fag.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 @Diginut "know the theory"...all that means is you know what the concepts are called. Again, knowing the name of a concept, ie. what everyone agrees to call it, doesn't help you become a better musician. As for Jazz, jazz is horrible music. If its the result of people spending countless hours in music theory class, then I can see why so many people have such a bias against learning theory. And I would agree with them. You either have music down, and learning theory is just a way to add names to what you know..or you don't have it down, and learning theory probably won't help you much. That is the advice I am giving. And its much better than anything you have said Diginut, all your shitty advice leads to is more Tiesto-wannabes. Its the same bland crap you see in countless interviews and QA for . And the world doesn't want any more of that. I'm not saying learning theory is bad or what ever, i'm saying if you don't already have a strong grasp on musical concepts, theory isn't going to magically make you hans zimmer. Ive seen music theory classes. On average if there was 200 students who took the class, only like 5-6 actually used the information, and went on to be musicians. This shows that learning theory isn't some magical musician maker.

not sure where to start.

A. jazz was not made by people that took theory courses
B. Hanz Zimmer doesn't know music theory.
C. using fag to describe something is what 10 year olds do.
D. The concept of either you have it or not is not supported by most surveys regarding people that succeed in music. Hardwork is usually/always the key component.
E. Saying jazz music sucks makes you sound incredibly stupid.
F. You are most likely a little child.
G. If you aren't a child, flick off the retard switch.

there i think i covered all the diatonic notes.

thanks guys appreciate it greatly - Look i am far from perfect, you should see the arguments I have with my Woman from time to time, and what from, just a difference of opinion. But, my main point is that simply, there are many avenues to expression in which mankind may take to express himself - and, im not saying that anyone has expressed themselves inadequately here at all - but we all can tell when a certain point is being expressed in haste, rather than in, the virtue of good.

[Quote] D. The concept of either you have it or not is not supported by most surveys regarding people that succeed in music. Hardwork is usually/always the key component.

so true and that is in any approach, either through instructive based theory or, intuitive intent!

for those that care to know, music theory as they teach it now is actually quite modern. Functional Harmony - perhaps another name for chord progression - was not codefied by Riemann until the later part of the 1800's. That is to say the masters like Brahms , Beethoven, Wagner ... did not have a theory of chord progressions yet they made music that is still considered unsurpassed in manipulation of instruments, chords ... You would be surprised to know how many of the great masters had to conceptualize the arrangement of chords by themselves in a way that although undoubtedly resembles the system presented much later, was still considered a secret .

And the theory they teach, which really shouldn't be called theory, although useful, is really only a system of presentation that i suppose works well for most western music. But since all of you make that sort of music and use the most basic of chordal manipulation, it would only make you better producers.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV not sure where to start. A. jazz was not made by people that took theory courses B. Hanz Zimmer doesn't know music theory. C. using fag to describe something is what 10 year olds do. D. The concept of either you have it or not is not supported by most surveys regarding people that succeed in music. Hardwork is usually/always the key component. E. Saying jazz music sucks makes you sound incredibly stupid. F. You are most likely a little child. G. If you aren't a child, flick off the retard switch. there i think i covered all the diatonic notes.

A. It is now.
B. So?
C. Arguing over opinions is what 10 year olds do.
D. So? They tested a bunch of people "who have it". That doesn't change much. Hardwork, works to increase the inate abilities that you have, hardwork doesn't produce new abilities out of the blue.
E. Ok, Jazz music is poorly made.
F. No And..
G. Nope.

The only reason people think Classical Composers are unsurpased is because they idolize those composers. Its the same reason why people like jazz so much. Though it is a double edged sword, because most music does fail to surpass classical composition, and I think jazz is partly why. The need to make money or be famous is the other part.

i think the take home message is that you are incredibly uninformed and I thought perhaps you could benefit from knowing that you are wrong on a few points. Or maybe you like sounding stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i think the take home message is that you are incredibly uninformed and I thought perhaps you could benefit from knowing that you are wrong on a few points. Or maybe you like sounding stupid.

You are just mad because I cuasally critque that which you hold great. I don't look up to classical european musicians in any sense of the word, I consider them the buttom rung of their time. And I think thats what gets at you, and further more, I have the "audacity" to attack jazz.

You really believe you are being audacious in attacking a genre ? I don't hold jazz dear to my heart, it is one of many styles that i'm familiar with. It just sounds silly when someone says a genre that spans 100 years sucks. Maybe you could be more specific. And you aren't getting at me, I'm just a little concerned like a father helping his retarded son into the car.

Do I think I look audacious attacking Jazz? To some, definatly. Maby you aren't aware of how much pull Jazz has on people, its almost like a cult. To most people who I have met, whern I told them jazz music blows, its as If in their eyes I killed their family and raped their children.

Its as if I went to a christian and told them the bible is false. Maby where you are from jazz doesn't have that pull, but here its staunch. And I base my statements on the fact that Ive never heard a coherent jazz song.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Ive never heard a coherent jazz song.

Define coherent. Do you find twinkle twinkle little star coherent ? I'm trying to gauge your level of sonic conceptualization so i can better understand why you have such a hard time with a genre that in its hey day used progressions that were quite standard even when compared to classical music.

Are you really asking me to codify why I dislike a genra?

We need to make an off topic thread so that threads don't get taken over.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Are you really asking me to codify why I dislike a genra?

that wasn't the issue.

Saying something sucks is very different than saying you don't like something. And coherency is a different concept than taste. You said you don't find it coherent and that makes me ask why considering rock is its close bastard son.

Saying "It sucks" is a slang way to say you do not like, approve of or enjoy something. And I say incoherent because often times classical jazz mixes elements together that seem to conflict or go off of that natural tick.

well staying within the "natural tick" is a sure way to make irrelevant music. You might hate jazz but it is relevant and it will be remembered and that is what good art tends to do.

I dunno about the good art part. A lot of trance, rap and pop music will be remembered, most of it is rubbish. But I see where you are coming from.

this thread has been proper buggered

I don't know what the fuck happened. I posted and next thing I know It posted like 27 times. Sorry about that, I deleted the excess posts.

quote:

Originally posted by owien this thread has been proper buggered

Its the kaos theory on the internet!

what would you guys recommend a good book to start reading and learning about music theory? (Diginut, your reply will probably be most valuable here, since you seem to have the most experience out of anyone I know on this board)

quote:

Originally posted by Ravist what would you guys recommend a good book to start reading and learning about music theory? (Diginut, your reply will probably be most valuable here, since you seem to have the most experience out of anyone I know on this board)

It's been a long time since my theory classes, so I don't remember the names of the books I had and they're probably out of publication by now anyway, but I'd suggest forgetting the Amazon/Borders/Dummies books and go straight to your local community college bookstore. I'm sure they'll have a good book for their Intro to Music Theory (assuming they offer it).

I believe RichieV is a more recent music grad than I am, so he may have some good recommendations, as well as Diginut, et al.

are you after a book on piano theory, or a book on musical composition, or something else mate?



check this link out, its a not bad read, click where it states here as its a link to the online PDF of the book

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/belkin/bk/

It has a fair bit of information and may well be worth a read

Re: Suggestions on two topics. 2 Handed Piano playing, arranging a track

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Since I already fill this forum with half of its post, I figured I better start cutting down on my posts or I'll get banned for spamming or piss everybody off because I'm always asking for help. The topic pretty much says it all. We'll address the first one first, as I think it will lend a hand to the second one. Playing the piano with two hands. There are SOOOOO many EDM artists who play "fake piano" and just use their controllers for sampling for the most part and do all the writing with the mouse. I've been watching so many gear videos lately, and I see these guys just doing unbelievable things on a keyboard. I know its years, and decades of experience that allows them to do this, but I am a patient person. I don't live in the microwave world. I just need to know a good formula for learning this. I know practice is the key, but I don't know what to practice!!!!! And on to topic too....maybe its just me but for some reason my productions are not coming to me like they used to. Lately I've been getting absolutely stumped after writing my chord progressions, and I've never really had any success building a track in a different way. I would like to stick to doing chords first but i need more ideas! I'm not talking about "write the melody next" or "do the drums and bass after the chords" - I'm talking about creative and intuitive approaches that some of you might incorporate in your production process that could help the light bulb come on for me (and hopefully others in my position) - It doesn't even have to spawn off the chords either. I'm not really concerned with the order in which the track is built. I'm more interested in learning creative ways of approaching them that maybe you guys can shine some light on. As an example....here is something very basic that I do in my tracks for a bassline. I simply take the chord MIDI's and delete all the notes except the lowest track. We'll use the common ACE and EGB sequence here. What I do just drop my bassline 1 octave from the lowest note (in this case E and B) and bam, I have a simple yet sometimes effectIVE bassline. This practice is also very common with sub bass as well and the octave drop there will usually depend on the audio I'm working with. I apologize in advance for the short story and two not-so-easy-to-answer questions, but I know there are some seasoned veterans on here who are willing to share invaluable advice and as always, thank you very very much. You would be surprised at how far just one little tip can go. Subtle broke down chords and chord progressions and major & minor scales for me quite some time ago and it was something so simple yet it carried over and generated a ton more knowledge. Again, thanks gus

this is in regards to a techtrance track ive just about finished and am gonna send it to a few labels (i would put up a link but ill wait till its finished)

the melody is pretty hektic in the middle. its VERY intense and uplifting/emotional.

the way i got it was simply messing round on the keyboard.. i was just messing round and stumbled across a progression in notes
4 notes to be exact.
i put that in on the sequencer... listened to it.. it sounded good i then played it on loop and played some notes with those you can DEFinetly tell which ones go and dont lol.. i either find it sounds good or bad. from then i added those extra notes. below and above the original notes. (i dont know much about chords/theory).
this did take me a hour or 2 by the way. it would probably be abit quicker if i knew what chords go with which but i dont so it takes longer.
i then put the whole thing on loop and listen and i have another synth up (in this song for example it was a pluck) and was playing around with different notes and some sounded really good some sounded average and some bad.. i went with the really good ones



once i have the main breakdown of the song i then can go and add al lthe other elements and i just use the same notes that ive used in the chords..

i dont claim to be real good at music production .. yet hahaha
i am trying to learn alot but above ^^ is my process i dunno if it will help you but try it out.. i love the feeling of messing around with a plain pad or any synth noise for a while and then BAM you get this killer progression or little riff. the song just flows from that point..
like i said before i think it would be heaps easier for someone such as cryo as he knows alot about theory and all that.. it would help ALOT but i dont think its a be all and end all if you dont know all about chords etc.


(a nice long post.. haha im on lunch lol)

quote:

Originally posted by Energy_3 are you after a book on piano theory, or a book on musical composition, or something else mate? check this link out, its a not bad read, click where it states here as its a link to the online PDF of the book http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/belkin/bk/ It has a fair bit of information and may well be worth a read

server not found

hey bud yeah i just tried it myself and no go, not sure why? I went back and its still up and running the website.

you can find it simply by typing musical composition into google its titled a practical guide to musical composition by Alan Belkin if you cant find it let me know as you can download the book as a pdf and i will email it to you.

I think its a great read - let me know if you find it - bugger that link!

try this one, it worked for me, its a direct link to the Book. fingers crossed


http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/per...belkin/bk/F.pdf

Here i took a fragment of its introduction:

This book arose in response to a specific, personal need. In many years of composing and teaching musical composition at various levels, I was repeatedly struck by the dearth of practical information about how music is constructed. There are good texts available on harmony, counterpoint, and orchestration, but useful principles of musical form, explained from the point of view of the composer, are oddly neglected. By "practical principles of musical form" I do not refer to the labeling and categorizing of structural units - useful though that may be - but to the ways musical ideas are organized and connected in time, so that their evolution is compelling and convincing. Even students quite experienced in analysis often have little idea about how to construct a transition, how to build a climax, or how to create a satisfactory sense of conclusion

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