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-- Check it in mono!
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I didn't have any problem. Diginut did, and he decided to troll, he is a known troll afterall. He could have just shut the fuck up and not said anything, but you know, people like him love to talk, and hate to listen.

what about massive festivals with the stage at the front ?

would they be able to have stereo as everyone is standing in the middle faceing the front. so you could hear the effects of panning and things? do they do this?

i remember listening at a festival i was at some months ago and i thought i heard sounds moving from left to right..

(i was fair wasted so it could have just been that )

Orchestras are the same way. They don't even have speakers often times :P but they also don't have panning or direction or anything else to take advantage of.

For your questions, probably not, but this is also the same reason why club music is only fun to hear...in a club. On a home system or headphones, however, they often sound like shit. This is one of the things I think contributing to the shittyness in general of EDM today. You can make good muisc, or you can make club music.

hmm so my tracks will be crap in the clubs? do all Big trance producers do this?

I have got some stuff being supported soon by some pretty big names i dont want to be embarrassed?

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 You have a track, it has massive phase, and wide ass delay, but its horrible in mono.... You would ruin the track just to make it club compatiable?

You're still not getting it, and it's for the same damn reason, that you incessantly overestimate and overstate your own [lack of] ability.

A track can have a very wide stereo field and be drowned in delay and reverb and still sound just fine in mono. Sort of like how your precious Fruityloops can make [inefficient] use of two processor cores, but still runs fine on just one.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Orchestras are the same way. They don't even have speakers often times :P but they also don't have panning or direction or anything else to take advantage of.

No, actually, wrong again. First of all, orchestras have an intrinsic panning of instruments because of the placement. Second, having several players play in unison (but with timing that's not perfect to the millisecond) is similar to another very common stereo effect - chorus. Third, the hall that an orchestra plays in is a natural reverb. I could go on, but honestly, I can't believe I even had to explain this much.

Do you ever shut up?

Shit I just did check one of my tunes in mono (Hotel Chaplin in my sig).

The trumpet, which is the lead, was weak as all f**k. Tt's panned and reverberated and has some massive amounts of stereo seperation and ping-pong delay (plus it's bussed to a send channel which contains pretty much the same stuff). And it's compressed like mad.

Thing is, this is what gives it it's character, so how do I fix it so it sounds good in mono but still sounds about the same in stereo I wonder?

quote:

Originally posted by PutBoy Shit I just did check one of my tunes in mono (Hotel Chaplin in my sig). The trumpet, which is the lead, was weak as all f**k. Tt's panned and reverberated and has some massive amounts of stereo seperation and ping-pong delay (plus it's bussed to a send channel which contains pretty much the same stuff). And it's compressed like mad. Thing is, this is what gives it it's character, so how do I fix it so it sounds good in mono but still sounds about the same in stereo I wonder?

try changing your stereo offset slightly. even a few ms can shift the amount of phased frequencies and give you a more mono-compatible sound.

quote:

Originally posted by kadomony try changing your stereo offset slightly. even a few ms can shift the amount of phased frequencies and give you a more mono-compatible sound.

What he said. Or change the actual delay; If it's sync'ed to the MIDI clock, you can bounce the delay as a wet effect and physically move it over a tiny bit (a few samples, or maybe a few ms, it depends). Generally it'll sound exactly the same in stereo, but you won't get phase cancellation in mono.

TBH, maybe I'm kind of biased now that you wrote this, but I listened to the track and the trumpet sounds a bit weak on my cans to begin with. I mean it's clear, it sounds good and seems to be in the right place in the mix, it's just lacking presence. Did you maybe EQ it a lot, like doing a complete bass cut?

Meh.

Well regardless on how it sounds, when making dance music, I tend to respect these rules, although some may break them, they come from a vinyl mastering company back in 1998:

1�) The kick is always center-panned, so is the low part of the bass.
2�) Stereo fx such as delays, reverb, etc, shouldn't be panned at more than 66% Left or Right.

When respecting those rules, many say they get better results on cutting and at clubs, too.
Actually, I don't care about reverb because it's lush and will drop in volume in mono anyway. But for everything else, I tried and tested it, and obviously it works. It makes things a little bit tiny though.

I got much better results by using dry soundsources without fx. Unison lovers beware, many synths outphase the sound. Keep it as mono as possible, then eventually spread the hi freqs with some spreader fx on a bus. What many usually do is send the track to a bus, put a high cut, then a spreader. A subtle combination of both channels guarantees mono-compatibility.

Don't forget that most vintage synths were mono anyway.

Nice post Tarp.

Not very new advice, it actually gets posted once a week.

Which isn't to say its not good advice of course

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Not very new advice, it actually gets posted once a week.

My ass.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Except no one said test the tracks in mono, he said make the tracks in mono, ie. the final mixdown is mono only, for the sake of club system compatiability. Making the track mono compatiable DOES directly translate to "no unison, no panning, no use of the stereo field" So you can have bland dry tracks with heavy concern about being severaly limited by mono..or you can just say fuck all and make them stereo. Do you listen to anything? No, because your a fucking moron. Because I don't care about attention? When I release a track, I tell about 5 or 6 people. I throw it up on tindeck, and maby my myspace. Then I move on. I'm done with that track. What is the merit in being famous or having recognition? I say there isn't an ounce of merit in it. But that is me. Unlike the entier EDM scene, I make muisc because I enjoy it, not because I want money or fame. If I wanted to be famous, Id just copy deadmau5.

He was speaking about testing your track in mono before rendering the final stereo wav.

And nobody said anything about becoming famous or making money. If you had the option of having 6 million people listen to your song and a large % of them like it or 6 people to listen to your song and however many like it; which would you choose? I mean you'd just be stupid to say you wouldn't want as many people as possible to enjoy your hard work and ideas

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Almost all clubs do. If you stop for a minute to think about it, the reason is pretty obvious - in a packed club, the majority of people will be standing nowhere near the center of the stereo field and the sound would be awful. Also if you've got 10 speakers in various locations all bouncing their sound around, the result for any listener is going to be practically mono anyway.

You sure?
I remember a similar conversation like this on In The Mix and I believe people mentioned that most good clubs in Australia were stereo.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo Well regardless on how it sounds, when making dance music, I tend to respect these rules, although some may break them, they come from a vinyl mastering company back in 1998: 1�) The kick is always center-panned, so is the low part of the bass. 2�) Stereo fx such as delays, reverb, etc, shouldn't be panned at more than 66% Left or Right.

Yeah, the reason why this is very important for vinyl in particular is that a signal that is completely out of phase (ie. 180� out of phase) on the other channel will make the actual groove on the record come up too far making it too hard to track. It's one of the physical limitations of vinyl, but completely workable.

Diginut is right, you don't have to make your track be practically mono for it to sound ok mixed down to mono. Hard panning is absolutely fine, this will mix down to the centre (with a -3dB cut, see stereo panning laws) just fine. Stereo delay is simply panning and that is absolutely fine. Stereo reverb is a bit different, though, because if you turn the panning up to max it will actually have the signal 180� out of phase at some parts. If you mix together two identical signals that are 180� out of phase then they cancel each other out. It's a shame because it's a nice stereo effect.

But I still think you should worry /too/ much about it. It will sound worse in mono, but as long as the gist of it is still there ie. the leads and drums. Again, listen to the second half of Sandstorm and that mid bass part is 180� out so it disappears in mono. Come to think of it, I can't actually remember hearing that mid bass part in a club before...

Also here's a relevant article from SOS: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar...eotechnique.htm

Also note, do not use stereo effects to make it sound good in headphones! Headphones are not stereo and need to be treated differently, or not at all as is the case most of the time. So just check to see if that ultra wide reverb is really worth it on a proper stereo system, because I've found that it usually isn't.

What is a good spreader?

I usually use Voxengo MSED and increase the side by about 2db or add a chorus and they sound good to me. So I should always just flick to mono just to make sure nothing weird is happening?

Isn't this the point of mid side mixing anyway? I dont' really worry about it since I try to avoid reverb and unison to make my sounds fatter, but I was under the impression that m/s mixing eliminated this problem.

And this topic is discussed every time I log on here, search ffs.

Here laidback luke mentions he produces in mono @ 2:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQSER4QsrPg

this is the reply i got from my record label in response to this thread

Hi mate,

Don't worry about that for the time being. I'll go into it at a later time if you would like, but for now just concentrate on making great engineered tracks.

I've been involved in a few club installations, and it's a lot deeper than an email, but don't let it bother you for the time being.

Take it easy fella.

Regards


So does it matter?

I guess the question is which label is it?

Not sure if this has been pointed out, but there is a sacrifice to be made with mono compatability.
What you should be aiming for is a track that sounds great in stereo but also good enough to be enjoyed in mono.
Certain elements will be lost in the mono version but it's a question of working out what you can live without and what is essential to the track. As a simple rule of mixing you should really have most of the important sounds quite central anyway.

Your kick and low freqs should be nothing but, otherwise your mix can sound off balance.

But yes, test your tracks in mono, this is a must.

Cheers
Nem

PS, I hope none of my tracks were the main offenders...

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux My ass.

The importance of mono has been mentioned on numerous occasions in this forum. Not quite every week, but reasonably frequently.

It's always good to revisit topics though, something new may come out of the discussion.

It's good to have an awareness of how your song could be heard - listening to it on high end speakers, on terrible speakers, on headphones, in a car, on radio (if possible), from another room, in mono (both sides summed together), in mono (just the left or right speaker).

You can't cater to everything, but it's good to be aware of how it could be experienced by listeners.

To be honest the only reason I do checks like this is to make sure I'm not doing something way wrong. Aka if an element doesn't exist in the mono render; it'd be time to figure out why that's happening.

I'm sure eventually I won't even need to do this check as I'll know all the rules for compatibility like the back of my hand.

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