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-- Have we lost the plot?
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Originally posted by Tarpex That's mostly pissing against the wind, compression itself is a powerful sound level control tool, which normalizes the dynamics against a set level, which is actually needed in EDM to bang properly in clubs. Of course it sounds retarded with classical, jazz, or most other real instrument oriented genres, but in EDM, where huge dynamic ranges would leave people wandering "wtf" on the dancefloors when they'd hear massive differences in volume on each sound, that's the only option.

Well, I'm not against all compression, I'm against the (IMO) ludicrous overuse of it in a lot of today's dance music. There were plenty of tracks that "banged properly" in the 1980s and 1990s, but the "loudness war" wasn't fully on yet, so they still had some breathing room.

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You're confusing compression with hard-ducking (or sidechaining, though it's not the proper expression for this case) of everything against the kick, and poor limiting jobs, which are two totally different worlds.

No, I am not. I'm talking about tracks that are almost totally flat in level and sound ear-splittingly noisy because none of the elements have any breathing room. "Limiting" is simply a specific type of compression btw.

And again, I'm not against all compression, just the current use of it to get this ear-splitting "maxed-out" sound in dance music.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarpex That's mostly pissing against the wind, compression itself is a powerful sound level control tool, which normalizes the dynamics against a set level, which is actually needed in EDM to bang properly in clubs.

As Mr JBJ has already said, songs used to bang excellently in the mid 90s. They didn't have basses which fluctuated volume-wise, it wasn't a case of the songs sounding uneven/fragile. They used compression and limiting, but generally only for musical means.

Absolutely, today a lot of compression and limiting is also done for musical means. But it's fair to say that these days there is a lot more usage of these tools for the sake of purely driving the level up as high as possible before it distorts.

That's fine if you're wearing in-ear headphones at the gym trying to compete with the gym's music. But it's not needed for the songs to "bang properly in clubs".

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Originally posted by david.michael I thought the sound at DEMF this year was pretty darn good.

You were there? Too bad I didn't know, I still haven't met any of the regs on the production forum.

I hear you there, it's just the way stuff works these days.
The grand irony of the loudness war is, that highly overpumped tracks have to be played at a lower volume than the rest, but there's only so much we can do about it!
Industry standard has shifted towards huge rms power, and indeed derail, most of the compression tools nowadays are used to provide as high volume levels as possible.

We could discuss in depth as to what the widespread of mp3 has done to further fuel the issue, and get it to the stage we are today, but it'd be kinda pointless, wouldn't it?

I like listening to 80's music that was well engineered and I agree, it sounds good. But I also enjoy listening today's material that's been carefully mastered to 0 db, and when done right, it sounds great too. Of course just slapping an L2 on the master and taking the threshold slider way down doesn't account as careful mastering, but there's some really good music, that's still heavily limited, but sounds good, we have to agree on that.
Besides, if EDM was such crap to listen in clubs, they'd be empty, wouldn't they?

quote:

Originally posted by Tarpex I like listening to 80's music that was well engineered and I agree, it sounds good. But I also enjoy listening today's material that's been carefully mastered to 0 db, and when done right, it sounds great too.

I think the highly compressed stuff can still sound good, of course, it can still have great synth sounds, melodies, or effects, but it doesn't take long before I get tired of listening to it simply because it's so "noisy."

quote:

Besides, if EDM was such crap to listen in clubs, they'd be empty, wouldn't they?

I dunno, people go out and dance to crappy music all the time, don't they? It seems to me that as long as something is loud and has a catchy beat or gimmick, people will dance to it...

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I dunno, people go out and dance to crappy music all the time, don't they? It seems to me that as long as something is loud and has a catchy beat or gimmick, people will dance to it...

I also don't know that people have a choice between a "high average RMS" club and a "lower average RMS" club. If they're out looking to dance, they'll dance to whatever's playing. Of course, if a song is catchy, that will help. But the catchy song doesn't need to be limited to within an inch of it's life.

I wonder if we've gone as far as we can go, loudness-wise. It would be amusing (if it weren't so sad) to see all these new loudness-maximizing tools come out and for us to be talking in ten years about the dynamic range we had back in 2009.

If we are at the limit, maybe there is space for music to start moving towards lower RMS values, for the sake of differentiation. The marketing people will start pointing out attack transients and bring to people's attention that these are non-existent on a lot of today's music.

Well, If they are going to be at a club, RMS hardly means anything other than a songs volume relation to another song. If a song has an RMS of -2db. [Yes, RMS, not peak], but its coming out of a PA system at 40 decibles. And you have a song with an RMS of -10, but its coming out of a PA at 60 decibles. The song with the lower RMS will still hurt more and fatigue you. Because its louder.

I doubt it will get much more louder, humans have a limited range of hearing. And increasing that range doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.

As for the future of EDM, and will it go to lower average RMS levels, I don't know. I don't see the grid being up that long. [What with the apocalypse happening any year now] Me being the pessemist that I am, Id say its only going downhill.

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Originally posted by derail I wonder if we've gone as far as we can go, loudness-wise. It would be amusing (if it weren't so sad) to see all these new loudness-maximizing tools come out and for us to be talking in ten years about the dynamic range we had back in 2009.

I think we're basically there. You have people on production forums now talking about clipping the track in order to "gain headroom," i.e. loudness. And this is when they're already exhausting all the other avenues like compression and EQ.

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If we are at the limit, maybe there is space for music to start moving towards lower RMS values, for the sake of differentiation. The marketing people will start pointing out attack transients and bring to people's attention that these are non-existent on a lot of today's music.

I don't know, I think you only notice that stuff if you pay good attention to the music, whereas it's instantaneous to notice that something is really loud. People flailing around with a few drinks or pills in them aren't going to care about attack transients.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I don't know, I think you only notice that stuff if you pay good attention to the music, whereas it's instantaneous to notice that something is really loud. People flailing around with a few drinks or pills in them aren't going to care about attack transients.

It's likely wishful thinking on my part.

I wonder if any kids who want to get into drums do a double take when they first hear a live drum kit in a music store?

"No, I want the kit that sounds like my heavy metal mp3s".

Maybe the store assistant can take them to a set of electronic drums which contains samples which already have the attack transients handily removed.

quote:

Originally posted by derail I wonder if any kids who want to get into drums do a double take when they first hear a live drum kit in a music store? "No, I want the kit that sounds like my heavy metal mp3s". Maybe the store assistant can take them to a set of electronic drums which contains samples which already have the attack transients handily removed.

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm ...and a hardware vs. software debate begins. if we're lucky, we might even get to mac vs. pc and cd vs. vinyl.

how do I sound like tiesto with fl studio and what are some good plug ins?

yeah you are right! Pop music sounds like ass in high spl levels, but trance seems to be following the curve.

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Originally posted by psymon.d how do I sound like tiesto with fl studio and what are some good plug ins?

duh, sdummy, u hav 2 get the waves platnim, and you ned vanguard, there is it its comes with some good presets, but but but, don't get fl, only nubs use it, you have to get cubase becuz its what pros use

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 Well, If they are going to be at a club, RMS hardly means anything other than a songs volume relation to another song. If a song has an RMS of -2db. [Yes, RMS, not peak], but its coming out of a PA system at 40 decibles. And you have a song with an RMS of -10, but its coming out of a PA at 60 decibles. The song with the lower RMS will still hurt more and fatigue you. Because its louder. I doubt it will get much more louder, humans have a limited range of hearing. And increasing that range doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon. As for the future of EDM, and will it go to lower average RMS levels, I don't know. I don't see the grid being up that long. [What with the apocalypse happening any year now] Me being the pessemist that I am, Id say its only going downhill.

Firstly 604, I'm not arguing with you for any other reason than your science is wrong - I'm not having a go.

If a song has an RMS of -2db then it's coming out clipped, so it will sound like shit anyway. (a wave with any sine component cannot exist higher than -3dbfs without clipping).

60db (and what I think you actually mean is 60dbfs) is louder than 40dbfs. period. There are no two ways about it. 60dbfs is louder than 40dbfs and the source has nothing to do with it (peak or rms) because the measurement is taken as an absolute value of loudness at the listening position itself, in this case the PA.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Firstly 604, I'm not arguing with you for any other reason than your science is wrong - I'm not having a go. If a song has an RMS of -2db then it's coming out clipped, so it will sound like shit anyway. (a wave with any sine component cannot exist higher than -3dbfs without clipping). 60db (and what you actually mean is 60dbfs) is louder than 40dbfs. period. There are no two ways about it. 60dbfs is louder than 40dbfs and the source has nothing to do with it (peak or rms) because the measurement is taken as an absolute value of loudness from the PA itself.

I know, what I am saying is, in terms of causing damage to the ear, the peak or rms has less effect than the actual dbfs.

A minimal track peaking at -10db, but with a dbfs of 256...will demolish your ear.

quote:

Originally posted by sixofour.604 I know, what I am saying is, in terms of causing damage to the ear, the peak or rms has less effect than the actual dbfs. A minimal track peaking at -10db, but with a dbfs of 256...will demolish your ear.

I think what you mean is a track with -10dbFS but with and 256db spl.

DB by itself, does not mean anything. It's like saying "miles per".

Miles per what?

Without a reference qualification it's meaningless, but most people just say DB - they are completely different things depending on the application.

In this forum most people use "db" to mean dbfs, which is usually clear from the context of the discussion.

Well, i'm talking about the actual loudness. Ie. The stuff that can phsyically damage your ear.

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Originally posted by echosystm ...and a hardware vs. software debate begins. if we're lucky, we might even get to mac vs. pc and cd vs. vinyl.

Are you ever helpful? seems all i see of you is sarcastic or silly one liners

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Originally posted by Sonic_c Are you ever helpful? seems all i see of you is sarcastic or silly one liners

Yes, too many times to count. He is just being facetious becuase when you've been on here a while, the same old bullshit keeps coming up and you need a bit of scolding humor to keep it real.

Just ask Mr. Mystery

I suppose i do like ta humour but im getting a bit tired of anytime something comes up someone has to say

"this topic is discussed all the time"

"here we go again no more needs to be said"

or words to that effect

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Originally posted by Sonic_c I suppose i do like ta humour but im getting a bit tired of anytime something comes up someone has to say "this topic is discussed all the time" "here we go again no more needs to be said" or words to that effect

That topic gets discussed all the time. Do a search!

Lol

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