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-- Is Canada Ready for ANOTHER Federal Election
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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced hidden agenda

I can't believe you actually said the words.

Yawn.

Even IF there were a shred of evidence for that, I'd rather have a hidden agenda than a clearly irrational and destructive agenda.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Even IF there were a shred of evidence for that, I'd rather have a hidden agenda than a clearly irrational and destructive agenda.

With Harper I think the two are one in the same.

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Originally posted by Sentinal Mr. Matt your point is very well taken. But I think the point of true contreversy here is one simple thing: timing. Simply put, bad timing. Let the government do what it has to to get the economy back up on its feet, while doing so, the Liberals still have the option to keep a very close eye over the CPC. I think calling an election now will sway alot of voters to conduct protest voting. And there will be another record low voter turnout. Taxpayer money could be much better spent than on stupid partisan politics.

Indeed sir, the timing does suck, just like the timing of most elections.

That said, given the lag time in the efficacy of almost all non-legislative policy decisions, there is nothing that the Harper government will do in the next 6 months that will actually have any bearing on the economy as all of that groundwork has already been laid. Thus leaving the effectiveness of prior policy decisions undertaken by the government to be determined by the administrative branches of government. So, in effect, this could well be the perfect time for an election.

Especially given that the Canadian economy was in the one of the best possible positions in the world, thanks to the inherent stability in the financial system (one instilled by the Liberal governement of the mid-90's, when they halted the BMO/RBC merger, & opposed by the Cons by the way.... NOT THAT I BACK ANY 1 SPECIFIC
PARTY OR IDEOLOGY), heading into the current global economic downturn. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<---------- holy fuckin run on sentence!

The Conservatives need to go asap. Harper has done a completely piss poor job as PM. Canada's image globally has taken a massive hit with him at the helm.

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Originally posted by slingshot The Conservatives need to go asap. Harper has done a completely piss poor job as PM. Canada's image globally has taken a massive hit with him at the helm.

Really? Please explain.

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Originally posted by The Ear Indeed sir, the timing does suck, just like the timing of most elections. That said, given the lag time in the efficacy of almost all non-legislative policy decisions, there is nothing that the Harper government will do in the next 6 months that will actually have any bearing on the economy as all of that groundwork has already been laid. Thus leaving the effectiveness of prior policy decisions undertaken by the government to be determined by the administrative branches of government. So, in effect, this could well be the perfect time for an election. Especially given that the Canadian economy was in the one of the best possible positions in the world, thanks to the inherent stability in the financial system (one instilled by the Liberal governement of the mid-90's, when they halted the BMO/RBC merger, & opposed by the Cons by the way.... NOT THAT I BACK ANY 1 SPECIFIC PARTY OR IDEOLOGY), heading into the current global economic downturn. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<---------- holy fuckin run on sentence!

I dont think the liberal economic platform of the ninties had any bearing on the countries economic defense during this recession. The simple long standing fact is: Canada is rich with natural resources, and because no matter how bad the world economy becomes, people the world over need these resources to survive. Therefor, Canada economy will continue to thrive so long as we continue to export these natural resources. The biggest industry sector hit by this recession is the manufacturing sector. Harper injected stimulus, which is sound policy to try and save jobs, and the auto industry in particular is already showing signs of recovery.

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Originally posted by Sentinal I dont think the liberal economic platform of the ninties had any bearing on the countries economic defense during this recession. The simple long standing fact is: Canada is rich with natural resources, and because no matter how bad the world economy becomes, people the world over need these resources to survive. Therefor, Canada economy will continue to thrive so long as we continue to export these natural resources. The biggest industry sector hit by this recession is the manufacturing sector. Harper injected stimulus, which is sound policy to try and save jobs, and the auto industry in particular is already showing signs of recovery.

The key determinant of the current economic situation is the freeze up of the overnight money markets and balance of payments systems, aka the credit system, or to use the common vernacular, the credit crunch. The reason we didn't see it as bad as other nations is b/c of the fiscal policy meted out by the administrations in the 1990's. The manufacturing sector fell on it's face b/c it's tied to a malformed & poorly administrated US auto sector and economy dependent on such short term loans and credit. So, in effect, the only thing Harper has done is help bail out American companies that are engaged in Canadian industries dependent upon said involvement. The only reason why the Canadian manufacturing sector is receiving said stimulus is to prevent the hemhorraging created by US leadership, and in effect cowing to those companies' failures.

Therefore, the only thing Harper has done is prolong the inevitable � the eventual collapse of the Ontarian manufacturing and auto sectors, as that is exactly what will happen the day that things turn protectionist in US foreign economic policy, or the day the unions are broken & the big 3 move their operations to Mexico where things can be made for a fraction of the cost thanks to NAFTA. If anything, Whoreper & McGimpy shoud be spending stimulus dollars on policy that re-tools the manufacturing and auto sectors away from cross boarder hyper-dependency.

/policy discussion for me

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Originally posted by Sentinal I'm happy with what Harper is doing. Canada is doing well through the recession compared to other countries. GDP is back in the black and there has been about a 30% recovery in thr markets thus far.

Canada is not doing well. This is such a massive illusion. Because the nature of our ultra conserative, and in most cases behind the curve banks come out of this crisis with better looking balance sheets than most we think that we're in better shape than everybody else? lol, ok. A 30% recovery in the markets...how does this have anything to do with Harper at all? There has been a 30% recovery in the markets EVERYWHERE. There is this illusion that we are doing well as a country because of our "abundant natural resource wealth" but it's specific to such a small segment of industry in our country as a whole. Why have our markets rebounded so well? Because China has been stock piling resources and embarking on infrastructure projects as part of their stimulus. When China buys, commodity prices go up....when that happens the TSX posts gains because of the dominance of mining and resource companies. But what also happens, is our dollar appreciates. While we think that we're doing well, we're actually fucking over every other industry in the country.

Harper and the conservatives have failed to address so many key issues that our country faces moving forward. Without mining, we have nothing. Our manufacturing base has been eroding. Some of our most prized intellectual property has been put on the block for sale to foreign firms (Nortel patents, CANDU). We still rank quite low on the competitive index in comparison to where we should be if our ruling elite had the least bit of foresight to put policies in place to get us there.

Our unemployement rate is still pushing double digits. ONTARIO, which pretty much is Canada is in the worst shape of them all. Nothing has been done to address this.

Federal funding disbursement is not representative of the type of urban nation that we have become. Our largest and most powerful cities (Toronto) consistently suffer from funding short falls because of an insufficient allocation of funds to the areas where they are most well spent.

Our brilliant finance minister has now put into a position where pretty much every prominent economist in the country is calling our budget deficit "structural". Do some research to see what happens when that label gets attached to things.

So many people completely fail to notice the significance of everything I have just mentioned moving forward as a nation. It totally fits into the complacent, and lacking foresight stance of our government and general population as a whole.

Oh, and there's that...let's completely infringe upon peoples freedoms but sneak it into law by putting it into the back end of bills where the main purpose of the bill is COMPLETELY different so that nobody makes a stink about our ultra right wing, make the US look like the USSR ideals.

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Originally posted by The Ear The key determinant of the current economic situation is the freeze up of the overnight money markets and balance of payments systems, aka the credit system, or to use the common vernacular, the credit crunch. The reason we didn't see it as bad as other nations is b/c of the fiscal policy meted out by the administrations in the 1990's. The manufacturing sector fell on it's face b/c it's tied to a malformed & poorly administrated US auto sector and economy dependent on such short term loans and credit. So, in effect, the only thing Harper has done is help bail out American companies that are engaged in Canadian industries dependent upon said involvement. The only reason why the Canadian manufacturing sector is receiving said stimulus is to prevent the hemhorraging created by US leadership, and in effect cowing to those companies' failures. Therefore, the only thing Harper has done is prolong the inevitable � the eventual collapse of the Ontarian manufacturing and auto sectors, as that is exactly what will happen the day that things turn protectionist in US foreign economic policy, or the day the unions are broken & the big 3 move their operations to Mexico where things can be made for a fraction of the cost thanks to NAFTA. If anything, Whoreper & McGimpy shoud be spending stimulus dollars on policy that re-tools the manufacturing and auto sectors away from cross boarder hyper-dependency. /policy discussion for me

Well i have to agree with you on one point. The US foreign economic policy or "Buy American" policy. But this policy is being met with great resistance both inside and outside the US's borders. Think about it. Would you rather buy a car made in the US for 40000 or a car made in Mexico for 15000. But in order for people to afford these items they need the capital to buy them in the first place, resources they simply dont have due to the recession. So the policy will fail.

The third shift was recently added back to the GM Oshawa plant and sales are beginingto rebound. Many domestic auto companies have had to collapse their business plans and restructure altogether. Had Harper not invested in those auto companies there is very good chance they would have closed their operation (and jobs) completely. Many more Canadians would have lost their jobs, so I beleive that it was a smart move to potect Canadian jobs and a clear indication of solid leadership.

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Originally posted by slingshot Canada's image globally has taken a massive hit with him at the helm.

Please. Our country's been taken a lot more seriously with Harper than with the previous lying scumbags who kept getting caught in another multi-million/billion dollar scandal year after year for about 8 years.

He's not perfect - far from it, and I am not that crazy about him anymore - but this "hit" to Canada's "image" is somewhere between gross exaggeration and outright fiction.

In spite of all the mistakes and broken promises, I still think - no, actually, I'm certain that the Tories are still making a better effort than the Chretien/Martin Liberals ever did, and are a hell of a lot more competent than an Ignatieff government could ever be. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they're good, just better. It's too bad that the Liberals can't find someone without shit for brains for us to vote for, because I would like to see some competitive pressure on Harper.

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Originally posted by DigiNut He's not perfect - far from it, and I am not that crazy about him anymore - but this "hit" to Canada's "image" is somewhere between gross exaggeration and outright fiction.

From a business perspective? With the exception of firms/sovereign wealth funds lining up to buy a piece of Alberta real estate, who else is lining up to do business in this country? For a right wing conservative government? Fail.

We're the only nation in the world still open to investment in our petroleum resources.

You want an example of how to put in place policy that's in the long run benefit of the country? See the Statens pensjonsfond.

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Originally posted by slingshot A 30% recovery in the markets...how does this have anything to do with Harper at all? There has been a 30% recovery in the markets EVERYWHERE.

I'm not sure what you mean here; Canada's financial markets have had more than a 30% recovery, they've had a complete turnaround and are now even better than they were last year.

Fiscal policy tends to take effect after 3-5 years... so while I can't prove that any of this is because of Harper or the Conservatives, the timing is definitely right.

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When China buys, commodity prices go up....when that happens the TSX posts gains because of the dominance of mining and resource companies. But what also happens, is our dollar appreciates. While we think that we're doing well, we're actually fucking over every other industry in the country.

Maybe. You have a point about the mining and resource sector, but I don't think the trickle-down effect is as pronounced as you make it out to be. Canada's tech, financial, and real estate sectors are all doing well and move pretty much independently of the resource sector. Retail sector, maybe somewhat correlated but not totally dependent, that has more to do with unemployment. Manufacturing yes, but in my opinion that industry has become so heavily unionized and hopelessly outmoded that it needs to crash and burn before it can be fixed.

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Harper and the conservatives have failed to address so many key issues that our country faces moving forward.

I agree with you on this... though I have a sinking feeling that my list of "key issues" is going to be wildly different from yours.

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So many people completely fail to notice the significance of everything I have just mentioned moving forward as a nation. It totally fits into the complacent, and lacking foresight stance of our government and general population as a whole.

I've noticed all of these things, but IMO these issues are not necessarily something that the government should or even can fix. To an extent they're actually cyclical, as the economy generally is; the previous Liberal governments had the benefit of presiding over one of the longest bull markets in history, driven primarily by the USA. I'm sure someone will point out that they also had to deal with the dot-com bubble, but by the time the next election rolled around the recovery had already started.

Harper had less than a year before the credit crunch began. When an economic meltdown is being driven primarily by sinking American and international markets coupled with massive government bailouts and protectionist/isolationist policies, does it really make sense to pin the blame on our government for not doing enough to stop it? History has shown time and again that too much government interference in these matters usually makes the problem worse.

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Originally posted by slingshot You want an example of how to put in place policy that's in the long run benefit of the country? See the Statens pensjonsfond.

That's what we need - more state-run businesses.

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Originally posted by slingshot Our unemployement rate is still pushing double digits. ONTARIO, which pretty much is Canada is in the worst shape of them all. Nothing has been done to address this. Federal funding disbursement is not representative of the type of urban nation that we have become. Our largest and most powerful cities (Toronto) consistently suffer from funding short falls because of an insufficient allocation of funds to the areas where they are most well spent.

The reason why Toronto is failing is for two reasons: Provincial downloading social programs and funding to the municipal level and the Ontario government consistantly raising personal and business taxes. Businesses and young employees are finding work in other parts of the country where it is much more affordable to live and conduct business operations.

The Federal government has a duty to serve ALL citizens across the entire country. Unfortunatly because the citizens of rural Canada do not have access to the same resources as we do here in the urban sections, they need support, and that support costs money. There is always the problem of regionalism which has forever plauged this country. By investing heavy amount of federal taxpayer money can and will create further disenchantment between the people of this country.

One other thing to add - Toronto is not suffering from "funding shortfalls", Toronto is suffering from some of the most horrible budget mismanagement in the city's history. Knowing how Toronto spends its money, just taking the recent garbage strike as an example, if I were Harper, I would sure as hell be reluctant to give another dime to Toronto.

It's not just about who (supposedly) needs the money, it's about how well they're going to use it. Both Toronto and Ontario in general need to prove that they aren't completely incompetent.

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Originally posted by DigiNut That's what we need - more state-run businesses.

So we sell our resources to foreign nations and let them siphon out the money instead? Are you even familiar with Norway's Pension Fund?

lol...dude....you're rolling your eyes at capitalizing on our resource wealth for the benefit of our own people?

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Originally posted by slingshot So we sell our resources to foreign nations and let them siphon out the money instead?

How do you figure that they are "siphoning out" the money?

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lol...dude....you're rolling your eyes at capitalizing on our resource wealth for the benefit of our own people?

I'm rolling my eyes at the notion that it's the government's responsibility to do this.

Finally a thread with some intelligent comments. I enjoy seeing other peoples perspectives when it comes to politics. It is a healthy conflict of beleifs for the same desired outcome, the betterment of our nation.

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Originally posted by DigiNut How do you figure that they are "siphoning out" the money? I'm rolling my eyes at the notion that it's the government's responsibility to do this.

By profiting off our resource wealth and sending it back to a nation other than ours?

How is it not the governments responsibility to put in place policy measures to manage our own resources and wealth in the best way possible for the people of our country?

Do the math on this....what's the FV of say...$3-5bn annually compounded over 20-30 years? Why don't we have some sort of fund set up to manage our oil wealth again? Because we're too busy running deficits again? It makes no sense whatsoever.

{EDIT}: And I'm talking specifically about the oil sands here when I refer to resource wealth.

Cities are strictly provincial jurisdiction.

Case closed, that debate doesn't belong here.

Natural Resources are strictly provincial jurisdiction.

Case closed, that debate doesn't belong here.

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Originally posted by malek Natural Resources are strictly provincial jurisdiction. Case closed, that debate doesn't belong here.

Not entirely. When it comes to international trade relations, that is federal jurisdiction, so the two commonly intertwine.

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Originally posted by malek Cities are strictly provincial jurisdiction. Case closed, that debate doesn't belong here.

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Originally posted by malek Natural Resources are strictly provincial jurisdiction. Case closed, that debate doesn't belong here.

My points exactly. Read between the lines.

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Originally posted by Sentinal Not entirely. When it comes to international trade relations, that is federal jurisdiction, so the two commonly intertwine.

The province is the sole entity that can enact laws on its territory about exploration, development or conservation and management of natural resources. International trade relations legislation is a just an accessory step in the whole process from mine to market.

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Originally posted by malek The province is the sole entity that can enact laws on its territory about exploration, development or conservation and management of natural resources. International trade relations legislation is a just an accessory step in the whole process from mine to market.

This is going to sound real nitpicky but parlimentry supremecy dictates that municipal governments are subordinate to provincial governments, and provincial governments to federal government. And ulitmatly the federal government to the crown........but that never happens.

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Originally posted by Sentinal This is going to sound real nitpicky but parlimentry supremecy dictates that municipal governments are subordinate to provincial governments, and provincial governments to federal government. And ulitmatly the federal government to the crown........but that never happens.

Then why divide the legislative powers in two in the constitution?? why not just turn this farce of a country into a dictatorship in the hands of the bozos in Ottawack?

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