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Originally posted by Clovis I am literally shitting my pants over here. This is indeed, a scary slippery slope. Woe is us. At least we still have our guns to defend ourselves. In fact I think I'm going to go buy a shotgun today.

You don't think any of it is scary? Take 2 of Obama's czars as examples. His science czar John Holdren advocated for population control via adding sterilization chemicals to the water supply and that newborn babies are not yet fully human. His idol and mentor Harrison Brown, like him, was a eugenist bent on "preventing biologically unsound people from breeding." He also has stated that redistributionism is the cure for American exceptionalism.


Then let's take a look at the newly departed Van Jones. Here are just some of the highlights of his career leading up to his appointment as the "Green Jobs Czar"

-Board member of the Apollo Alliance who helped write the stimulus package... which he personally was then given $80 billion of to disperse where he saw fit.

-Arrested in 1993 during Rodney King riots. In jail he said, in his own words, "I met all these young radical people of color. I mean really radical; communists and anarchists... and it was like, this is what I need to be a part of. By August, I was a communist."

-Founding member of STORM (Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement), which held study groups based on Marxist and Leninist teachings. It's member pamphlet states: "All of STORM's members a basic understanding of, and committment to revolutionary Marxist policies, with a particular emphasis on the historical experiences of 3rd world communist movements

-STORM's objective, as stated in their manifest: Mobilizing young people of color into militant direct action, and combine it with more deeply rooted organizing in our communities. One of their main goals was mobilizing for a convicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal.

-Arrested again in 1999 while protesting the World Trade Organization.

-Signed a 9/11 Truther petition in 2004 demanding an investigation on the matter. Of course, he denies now that he believes that which means that he's asking us to create a new standard for public officials in which documents that bear their signature should no longer be used against them.

-Claimed "Republicans are assholes" then when getting called out on it said that he really believes in bipartisanship.

-Claimed that whites were directly and purposely steering pollution into black neighborhoods. Claimed that school shootings are a white problem.


And YET... there has been total media silence on the issue. He resigned Saturday at midnight over the controversy when nobdy was paying attention. Except from the 1 or 2 who reported it after he resigned claiming it was due to a Republican consipracy... video of him saying all that shit in his own words did him in for god's sake! Are you concerned AT ALL that someone like Jones, who is a self admitted communist and marxist, a militant, and a paranoid racist getting to that high of a level within the government and become one of the president's closest advisors?

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Originally posted by The17sss

You are complaining about a few radical leftists in the government, when during the last administration, was full of radical right wingers. Do you actually think no administration has a few radicals? If you want to call this administration communist, then I can likewise call the last one fascist. Where does that get us? No where. Why are we arguing over such stupid bullshit? Our politics is the laughing stock of the first world. Let's argue about who is a communist and who is a fascists. Yes, let's waste our precious time on such stupid bullshit. Meanwhile, Europe is looking at us like we'r fucking idiots.

"Doctor Zero," lol.

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Originally posted by Krypton You are complaining about a few radical leftists in the government, when during the last administration, was full of radical right wingers. Do you actually think no administration has a few radicals? If you want to call this administration communist, then I can likewise call the last one fascist. Where does that get us? No where. Why are we arguing over such stupid bullshit? Our politics is the laughing stock of the first world. Let's argue about who is a communist and who is a fascists. Yes, let's waste our precious time on such stupid bullshit. Meanwhile, Europe is looking at us like we'r fucking idiots.

You comment about a few radical leftists being in the administration like it's no big deal. Radical leftists who are the president's closest advisors. How can you compare the radical nature of the 2 I listed to anything in the Bush administration? Like Mongoose earlier, you are justifying Obama doing it by saying Bush did it too, when you're as anti-Bush as it gets. You're totally cool that our president knowingly aligned himself with a self avowed communist/marxist/anarchist who is a 9/11 Truther and says white people are putting toxic pullution into black communities? That shit should be worrysome man.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss You comment about a few radical leftists being in the administration like it's no big deal. Radical leftists who are the president's closest advisors. How can you compare the radical nature of the 2 I listed to anything in the Bush administration? Like Mongoose earlier, you are justifying Obama doing it by saying Bush did it too, when you're as anti-Bush as it gets. You're totally cool that our president knowingly aligned himself with a self avowed communist/marxist/anarchist who is a 9/11 Truther and says white people are putting toxic pullution into black communities? That shit should be worrysome man.

What was worrisome was having a radical neo-con nationalist as vice president. That was scary. The people in this administration who really matter aren't communist loons dude. He was a czar. A cog in the wheel. These people don't make policy. Their job is to carry out the executive's policy. It's easy to pick out one or two radicals in any administration, as for this case, it's insignificant as I'v just pointed out.

Using this as an example to support a perception that socialism, fascism, communism, etc (right wingers seem to not be able to make up their minds on that), is on the rise in this country is laughable.

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Originally posted by Krypton What was worrisome was having a radical neo-con nationalist as vice president. That was scary. The people in this administration who really matter aren't communist loons dude. He was a czar. A cog in the wheel. These people don't make policy. Their job is to carry out the executive's policy. It's easy to pick out one or two radicals in any administration, as for this case, it's insignificant as I'v just pointed out.

A cog in the wheel isn't unaccountable to everyone except Obama, and given $80 million worth of stimulus money to hand out. His job was in fact to make policy to get "green jobs" going with use of that money. There are more than 2 nut cases in there... I only listed 2. But the worrysome point is that you're ok with Obama being ok with someone like Van Jones, knowing his background, working in the bowels of the W.H.

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Originally posted by The17sss A cog in the wheel isn't unaccountable to everyone except Obama, and given $80 million worth of stimulus money to hand out.

So every single employee of the white house must be appointed by Congress? That's ridiculous.

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His job was in fact to make policy to get "green jobs" going with use of that money.

You'r statement proves my point. The czars don't make policy, they help the president carry out within their specific responsibility. He was given a task, as you just stated, "get green jobs going". He wasn't the one making the policy.

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There are more than 2 nut cases in there... I only listed 2.

Like I said, the one's making the policy aren't leftist loons. And an extremely small minority of those carrying out the policy aren't loons either.

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But the worrysome point is that you're ok with Obama being ok with someone like Van Jones, knowing his background, working in the bowels of the W.H.

Knowing his background? They didn't know he was a 9/11 truther. Dude, have you been watching Glenn Beck?

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Originally posted by Krypton So every single employee of the white house must be appointed by Congress? That's ridiculous.

haha no... I'm not saying that. But it's ass backwards for them to have power over those who do have to go through the confirmation process, especially if they are being paid by federal tax dollars.

quote:

Knowing his background? They didn't know he was a 9/11 truther. Dude, have you been watching Glenn Beck?

Yeah... sure they didn't know. It took someone about 30 minutes on google to find it out. And even if they didn't, his association with STORM is frightening enough. But I digress: from Time Magazine 2 weeks after the election on Obama's rigorous vetting process:

quote:

Though over 7,000 jobs are expected to become available in President-elect Barack Obama�s Administration, applying for them is not for the faint of heart � or character. In order to compete for any of the positions, from U.S. coordinator for Afghanistan to staff assistant in the Department of Public Affairs, prospective Obamans need to fill out a grueling seven-page questionnaire created by Obama�s transition team to ensure that all members of the next Administration have had their closets spring-cleaned of any skeletons well in advance. The questionnaire leaves no stone unturned in its 63-part effort to excavate any personal or professional transgressions in a candidate�s past. Sample indiscretions run the gamut from criminal convictions and tax fraud to text messages or personal diary entries that could be a �possible source of embarrassment� to the President-elect if made public.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/a...1859954,00.html

guess Van Jones' application accidently got lost.

Where in the executive order did it say his job was to "create policy"? Working in the White House means you are the President's point man on a specific issue, and that you follow his instructions in working with Congress and the various Executive agencies to draft policy initiatives.

Perhaps the problem is in the terminology - you're reading a lot more power into these "czar" positions than really exists. It's not like they are ordering Cabinet officials (or anybody that works for a Cabinet official) around.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Where in the executive order did it say his job was to "create policy"? Working in the White House means you are the President's point man on a specific issue, and that you follow his instructions in working with Congress and the various Executive agencies to draft policy initiatives. Perhaps the problem is in the terminology - you're reading a lot more power into these "czar" positions than really exists. It's not like they are ordering Cabinet officials (or anybody that works for a Cabinet official) around.

Nothing you say can justify the appointment of an admitted communist, maxist, and anarchist, who was a 9/11 truther that blames whitey at every turn, to a prominent role in the administration while getting paid by the taxpayers and is subject to no accountability by the public.

If your complaint is poor vetting, then it is one I assuredly share. But you are way over-stating the power of these people in order to make a political point that misconstrues both political theory and fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov If your complaint is poor vetting, then it is one I assuredly share. But you are way over-stating the power of these people in order to make a political point that misconstrues both political theory and fact.

You know, it's hard to go the "poor vetting" route... it's just too easy of an explanation. From what I've read, it's no secret as to what that guy's beliefs were. Plus he had to fill out that "grueling" questionaire outlined in Time Magazine I posted. It's just more light being shined on the radical associations. Rev Wright, Father Phleger, Ayers, Dorn, etc... we are seeing more and more of this radical type around Obama and we're to conclude he doesn't share in those beliefs?

Watch out for "Diversity Czar" Mark Lloyd next... he will be the answer to getting around the Fairness Doctrine. He is proposing that equal air time be given on talk radio, and not doing so will subject station owners to a fine of 100% of their operating budget. He's the czar so the FCC or individual station owners can't fight it if that's what he decides... and he's accountable to nobody. Watch for it soon

People who are credible do not post under fake names. Dr. Zero should probably be a bit more open with who he/she is and how they've come into this excelent insight.

I will begin reading though, then I'm certain I'll have a few more comments....

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do they not teach politics 101 in school anymore? 17sss you need a refresher.

I agree.

No mention of nationalisim, no mention of regional roots, no mention of 'manifest destiny', no mention of political violence.

The nationalization of so many companies of late, and the attempts at health care reform, are closer to socialisim than facisim.

One big problem about anyone who mentions fascist governments is that there is no real fascist ideology, there was never a theorist who came up with the machinations about how it would work. Wagner wrote some early literature and Hitlers 'Mein Kampf' are some of the note worthy works and they are meager at best.

In the parlence of North American media 'facist' has taken on the meaning of 'someone who's doing something you don't like and are powerless to stop'.

The fact of the matter is that Obama won a free and fair election by a wide margin and he is now running the country by the laws of the land. He can institute national health care if it passes through congress, fuck he can even institute manditory military service and chicken for lunch on Tusedays if he wants, so long as at goes through congress as per the laws of the land.

He's the boss, SUCK IT UP!

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss You comment about a few radical leftists being in the administration like it's no big deal. Radical leftists who are the president's closest advisors. How can you compare the radical nature of the 2 I listed to anything in the Bush administration?

Bush talks to the air and thinks it will help him.

Bush's closest advisors were radical Christians who feel that it is thier job to send jews back to isreal to bring the war that will signal the second comming and the apocolypse.

Makes even the odd truther in the white house seem bearable.

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Originally posted by atbell He can institute national health care if it passes through congress, fuck he can even institute manditory military service and chicken for lunch on Tusedays if he wants, so long as at goes through congress as per the laws of the land.

quote:

He's the boss, SUCK IT UP!

Mostly I agree. However he's the CEO, not a dictator. He answers to us, not the other way around. It's a very fine line.

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Originally posted by The17sss Nothing you say can justify the appointment of an admitted communist, maxist, and anarchist, who was a 9/11 truther that blames whitey at every turn, to a prominent role in the administration while getting paid by the taxpayers and is subject to no accountability by the public.

Many nations around the world not only admit communits, marxists, and anarchists (all of which happen to be very different so it would be hard to find a single person who is all of them) as advisors but have fully formed communist parties that work within the system to build a concensus that includes many different points of view. Some of those points of view don't even have faith in free markets!

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Originally posted by Shakka Mostly I agree. However he's the CEO, not a dictator. He answers to us, not the other way around. It's a very fine line.

Yup, he'll be answering next November for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Watch out for "Diversity Czar" Mark Lloyd next... he will be the answer to getting around the Fairness Doctrine. He is proposing that equal air time be given on talk radio, and not doing so will subject station owners to a fine of 100% of their operating budget. He's the czar so the FCC or individual station owners can't fight it if that's what he decides... and he's accountable to nobody. Watch for it soon

Except Obama, who's accountable to the voters...


zzzz this is getting dull.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss You know, it's hard to go the "poor vetting" route... it's just too easy of an explanation. From what I've read, it's no secret as to what that guy's beliefs were. Plus he had to fill out that "grueling" questionaire outlined in Time Magazine I posted. It's just more light being shined on the radical associations. Rev Wright, Father Phleger, Ayers, Dorn, etc... we are seeing more and more of this radical type around Obama and we're to conclude he doesn't share in those beliefs?

Oh, come on. You're going to play the radical association card after supporting Bush's lockstep with the folks from PNAC? This is really a tired line of attack by now.

And yes, I'm pissed at the inability of the Administration to vet people properly. This is something we can agree on - but for you to rant and rave about how Obama missed so much after you yourself voted for McCain/Palin is awfully hypocritical - after all, not vetting a potential Vice President is an awfully lot worse than a policy wonk that works for the bureaucracy.

quote:

and he's accountable to nobody. Watch for it soon

Above even the Queen of England I've heard.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss You don't think any of it is scary? Take 2 of Obama's czars as examples. His science czar John Holdren advocated for population control via adding sterilization chemicals to the water supply and that newborn babies are not yet fully human. His idol and mentor Harrison Brown, like him, was a eugenist bent on "preventing biologically unsound people from breeding." He also has stated that redistributionism is the cure for American exceptionalism. Then let's take a look at the newly departed Van Jones. Here are just some of the highlights of his career leading up to his appointment as the "Green Jobs Czar" -Board member of the Apollo Alliance who helped write the stimulus package... which he personally was then given $80 billion of to disperse where he saw fit. -Arrested in 1993 during Rodney King riots. In jail he said, in his own words, "I met all these young radical people of color. I mean really radical; communists and anarchists... and it was like, this is what I need to be a part of. By August, I was a communist." -Founding member of STORM (Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement), which held study groups based on Marxist and Leninist teachings. It's member pamphlet states: "All of STORM's members a basic understanding of, and committment to revolutionary Marxist policies, with a particular emphasis on the historical experiences of 3rd world communist movements -STORM's objective, as stated in their manifest: Mobilizing young people of color into militant direct action, and combine it with more deeply rooted organizing in our communities. One of their main goals was mobilizing for a convicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal. -Arrested again in 1999 while protesting the World Trade Organization. -Signed a 9/11 Truther petition in 2004 demanding an investigation on the matter. Of course, he denies now that he believes that which means that he's asking us to create a new standard for public officials in which documents that bear their signature should no longer be used against them. -Claimed "Republicans are assholes" then when getting called out on it said that he really believes in bipartisanship. -Claimed that whites were directly and purposely steering pollution into black neighborhoods. Claimed that school shootings are a white problem. And YET... there has been total media silence on the issue. He resigned Saturday at midnight over the controversy when nobdy was paying attention. Except from the 1 or 2 who reported it after he resigned claiming it was due to a Republican consipracy... video of him saying all that shit in his own words did him in for god's sake! Are you concerned AT ALL that someone like Jones, who is a self admitted communist and marxist, a militant, and a paranoid racist getting to that high of a level within the government and become one of the president's closest advisors?

I don't know how much more scared you want me to be, I already said I just shit my pants.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov And yes, I'm pissed at the inability of the Administration to vet people properly. This is something we can agree on - but for you to rant and rave about how Obama missed so much after you yourself voted for McCain/Palin is awfully hypocritical - after all, not vetting a potential Vice President is an awfully lot worse than a policy wonk that works for the bureaucracy.

I've told you several times.... I did not vote in the election because I could not bring myself to compromise my values for a pandering fool like McCain. Forget the Palin stuff; once Romney and Thompson were gone I told myself to forget about Huckabee and McCain.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss haha no... I'm not saying that. But it's ass backwards for them to have power over those who do have to go through the confirmation process, especially if they are being paid by federal tax dollars.

Again, czars don't make policy. They don't need to be confirmed.

quote:

Yeah... sure they didn't know. It took someone about 30 minutes on google to find it out. And even if they didn't, his association with STORM is frightening enough. But I digress: from Time Magazine 2 weeks after the election on Obama's rigorous vetting process: http://www.time.com/time/politics/a...1859954,00.html guess Van Jones' application accidently got lost.

So you'r going on about a questionnaire not revealing he signed a 911truth petition. Wow, dude, sometimes you have the most trivial arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton So you'r going on about a questionnaire not revealing he signed a 911truth petition. Wow, dude, sometimes you have the most trivial arguments.

I'm talking about this line from the article:

quote:

The questionnaire leaves no stone unturned in its 63-part effort to excavate any personal or professional transgressions in a candidate�s past. Sample indiscretions run the gamut from criminal convictions and tax fraud to text messages or personal diary entries that could be a �possible source of embarrassment� to the President-elect if made public.

no stone unturned eh? plus he had a couple of criminal convictions already. Plus he was investigated by the FBI. lol dude you will do/say anything to carry Obama's water.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Wow, dude, sometimes you have the most trivial arguments.

sometimes? i can't remember the last time i saw 17sss come up with an argument that was both valid AND substantial. as far as im concerned he is emblematic of everything that is wrong with political discourse in the US (at least at a public level).

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