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-- Acorn At Its Best
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| Originally posted by The17sss I did read it. If you are trying to have a pissing contest over what political party spends more excessively and wastes more taxpayer money on failed programs and policies, take a look at your voter registraion card. |
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| It's quite laughable you are using the Iraq war spending as a benchmark to absolve ACORN's taxpayer funding... becuase it's not about that; it's about the culture of corruption that exists within that organization, |
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| and is obviously pervasive and has been tracked as being so for over 10 years. I highly doubt YOU read the article showing the corrupt money tree of the ACORN organization. If you did, you wouldn't have written a 10,000 word rebuttal. |
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| Basically, all you need to know is that on their literature, they say: ACORN is a non-profit, non-partisan social justice organization with national headquarters in New York, New Orleans and Washington, D.C. |
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| Again with the "tax dollars down the drain" argument. I should remind you that (just to name a few) Social Security, the "war on poverty", the "great society", ... |
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| shit, how about Cash for Clunkers? |
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| the current stimulus debacle |
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| All Democrat ideas which have evolved into total overpriced boondoggles. |
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| You seem to think that because certain programs used with taxpayer dollars are enlised with "good intentions", the consequences don't matter. |
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| A Brief List of criminal, civil, political and ethical transgressions 1949 General Electric deliberately released radioactive material to see how far downwind it would travel. 1986 the United States and General Electric had conducted experiments on hundreds of United States citizens. One of GE�s most gruesome experiments � disclosed in the Markey hearings � was performed on inmates at a prison in Walla Walla, Washington, near Hanford. Starting in 1963, 64 prisoners had their scrotums and testes irradiated to determine the effects of radiation on human reproductive organs. GE is wholly or partially liable for at least 78 federal Superfund sites. + On September 29, 1998, General Electric agreed to a $200 million settlement in principle of environmental claims resulting from pollution of the Housatonic River and other areas by chemical releases from GE�s plant in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. The claims result from a long history of GE�s use and disposal of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) and other hazardous substances at the plant, which GE no longer uses for manufacturing. + On March 26, 1998, General Electric agreed to pay a $92,000 fine for previous violations of environmental reporting requirements for toxic releases at its silicone manufacturing plant in Waterford, New York, + On September 15, 1995, General Electric agreed to pay $137,000 in fines and expenses and to clean up a hazardous waste dump at a former plant where it repaired and rebuilt transformers. + October 1993, investigators swooped down on the GE Apparatus Service Center in Brandon, Florida with search warrants to take soil samples and confiscate computer records and files. Inspectors found 30 violations, GE closed the facility in December 1993. + On March 13, 1992, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) issued a $20,000 fine against General Electric for violations of regulations at the fuel fabrication plant in Wilmington, North Carolina. +On May 29, 1991, GE personnel accidentally moved about 320 pounds of uranium to a waste treatment tank. The danger of the mistake was that the size and shape of the waste container caused unsafe concentrations of uranium, which could have led to a nuclear accident. The NRC dispatched a special incident investigation team the same day and an inspection began two days later. The NRC found that the mistake was the result of lax safety controls. +At an April 22, 1998 shareholder meeting, GE CEO Jack Welch claimed: �PCBs do not pose adverse health risks.� Testifying in Albany on July 9, 1998, EPA Administrator Carol Browner stated: �GE tells us this contamination is not a problem. GE would have people of the Hudson River believe, and I quote: �living in a PCB-laden area is not dangerous.� But the science tells us the opposite is true ... And concern about PCBs goes beyond cancer ... The science has spoken: PCBs are a serious threat...� Defense Contracting Fraud + On July 23, 1992, GE pled guilty in federal court to civil and criminal charges of defrauding the Pentagon and agreed to pay $69 million to the U.S. government in fines � one of the largest defense contracting fines ever. General Electric said in a statement that it took responsibility for the actions of a former marketing employee who, along with an Israeli Air Force General, diverted Pentagon funds to their own bank accounts and to fund Israeli military programs not authorized by the United States.Under the settlement with the Justice Department over violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, GE paid $59.5 million in civil fraud claims and $9.5 million in criminal fines. + GE is a repeat offender when it comes to Defense Department fraud. The company has repeatedly violated the False Claims Act � a measure originally proposed by Lincoln to protect federal coffers. When the Project on Government Oversight surveyed defense contractors, it found that General Electric was responsible for 15 instances of fraudulent activity in just a four year period (1990-1994) � more than any other defense contractor. GE: 1. Paid $7.1 million to settle a qui tam suit alleging that the company failed to satisfy electrical bonding requirements for its jet engine contracts, thereby creating a safety risk. 2. Paid $5.87 million (along with Martin Marietta) to settle a qui tam suit associated with improper sales of radar systems to Egypt. 3. Paid fines between 1990 and 1994 ranging from a $20,000 criminal fine to a $24.6 million civil fine for a variety of defense contracting frauds, including: misrepresentation, money laundering, defective pricing (2 incidents), cost mischarging (3 incidents), false claims, product substitution, conspiracy/conversion of classified documents, procurement fraud and mail fraud. 4. Was convicted on February 3, 1990 in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia of defrauding the government out of $10 million for a battlefield computer system. 5. Pled guilty on May 19, 1985 to charges of fraud and falsifying 108 claims on a missile contract. 6. Was convicted of defrauding the Air Force out of $800,000 on the Minuteman Missile Project. 7. Was convicted of bribing the Puerto Rico Water Resources Authority. artial rebates to buy new GE dishwashers. Recidivistic GE What distinguishes General Electric is not merely the number of crimes committed � or the dollar amount of the crimes � but a consistent pattern of violating criminal and civil laws over many years. Exacerbating the situation, General Electric has been a leader in using political influence to attempt to overturn the environmental and defense contracting laws that it persistently violates. http://www.multinationalmonitor.org...aug01corp4.html |
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| No- I'm not saying those banking institutions are off the hook... but you are trying to argue that because it's "not just ACORN" involved in shady dealings that they are off the hook. They are equally responsible for fostering that illegal activity. |
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| Dude... have you ever heard the phrase "where there's smoke, there's fire"?? It doesn't mean anything to you that ACORN has been routinely been indicted in several states in several election cycles for illegal voting activity? |
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| It's just one of many examples of the types of people that work for the organization... |
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| like establishing a pattern of behavior in a person vs. them flying off the hinges one time. |
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| HAHA! Oh, they said it was "an oversight" and therefore should be absolved? Well shit... if I ever kill someone I'll just tell the cops it was an oversight. I'm sure they'll understand. |
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| I think you didn't read this section of the linked article, because you're response is weak: That's just a little more than fishy, isn't it? Or maybe just an oversight  |
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| Mr. Davis contended that the original filing was an effort to �hide the fact� that money was paid to Acorn. But F.E.C. officials have said such amended filings are common. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/u...acorn.html?_r=1 |
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| lol... I have to admit, I'm actually thickening up my skin and enjoying reading responses like this because A) they really are funny and it makes me think, "Shit... despite this political nonsense, I bet MisterOpus would be cool to hang out with," |
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| and B) because even after saying that, you go on to acknowledge that: and ...which is all I'm saying; ACORN is at least complicit in all of this. They are not acting alone; I never insinuated this. But they are actively involved in shady illegal shit using taxpayer money to do so, and that is my problem. |
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| oops... you're right. I meant to say "Policies". I read the link you posted about them. I don't see the problem... checks and balances are necessary. So what if they are affiliated with the GOP? A Democrat front group sure as shit wouldn't take the time to investigate ACORN or expose embezzlement. The investigation produced factual illegal practices, not partisan opinions. |
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| EPI deliberately attempted to create confusion in the eyes of journalists and the general public by adopting a name which closely resembles the Economic Policy Institute, a much older, progressive think tank with ties to organized labor. In addition to imitating the name and acronym of the Economic Policy Institute, Berman's outfit even used the same typeface for its logo. In reality, the two groups have dramatically different public policy agendas. The Economic Policy supports a living wage and mandated health benefits for workers. Berman's organization opposes both and in fact opposes any minimum wage whatsoever. In 1992, Los Angeles Times business columnist Harry Bernstein noted that EPI was using "misleading studies" to help put a positive spin on rising unemployment. "The conservative EPI, financed mostly by low-wage companies such as hotels and restaurants, is issuing reports the titles of which alone could help put a bright face on the miserable job scene," Bernstein wrote. "The latest one is 'The Value of Part-Time Workers to the American Economy.' It hails as a great thing the distressing growth of part-time jobs because they offer 'flexibility' in economic planning for both workers and companies, and say that flexibility is vital 'in the growing and increasingly competitive global economy.' Tell that nonsense to the more than 6.5 million workers forced to take part-time jobs because nothing else is available. That is an increase of more than 1.5 million involuntary part-timers since 1990, the Bureau of Labor Statistics says." EPI has been doing more or less the same thing ever since, sponsoring cooked studies and issuing tendentious sound bytes whenever attempts are made to establish healthcare or better wages for workers. Then, as now, fast-food employees were the largest group of low-paid workers in the United States. One-quarter of the workers in the restaurant industry are estimated to earn the minimum wage--a higher proportion than in any other U.S. industry. This is the real reason why EPI appears on the scene whenever federal or local governments consider a proposal to increase the minimum wage. Its standard tactic is to trot out a study using contrived statistics designed to show that hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost if the wage is raised. (In reality, studies by labor economists show that the job-loss effect of increasing the minimum wage is either small or nonexistent and that its benefits to low-wage workers and their families far outweigh the costs. Even the Food Institute Report, an industry trade publication, admitted in 1995 that "the weight of the empirical evidence suggests that the effects [on the number of available jobs] of a moderate raise from its current level are likely to be negligible.") (snip)In 1995, EPI lashed out at Princeton University professors David Card and Alan Krueger, after they published a survey of fast-food restaurants which found no loss in the number of jobs in New Jersey after implementing an increase in the state's minimum wage. Berman accused Card and Krueger of using bad data, citing contrary figures that his own institute had collected from some of the same restaurants. But whereas Card and Krueger had surveyed 410 restaurants, Berman's outfit only collected data from 71 restaurants and has refused to make its data publicly available so that other researchers can assess whether it "cherry-picked" restaurants to create a sample that would support its predetermined conclusions. The Employment Policies Institute, in a 1994 R.J. Reynolds-drafted press release, predicted the loss of 2-3 million jobs if the Clinton Healthcare plan was enacted. The Clinton plan was to be funded through an additional federal tax on cigarettes.[3] A 1997 internal Philip Morris presentation called indicates PM planned to "sponsor and participate" in the Employment Policies Institute to gain the organization's help in promoting PM's Accommodation Program, a strategy the company designed to fight smoking bans and preserve smoking in public places.[4] http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...icies_Institute |
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| Almost, but not quite as funny, as ACORN's representatives saying the actions of the people on video are reprehensible, and ACORN will provide an independant council to investigate. Here is how independant the team is: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...orn-reacts.html If you check out those people, you'll find Cisneros worked regularly with ACORN as HUD Secretary and would later plead guilty to lying to the FBI to cover up a political embarrassment. Stern heads the SEIU which has several chapters of its organization run by ACORN. Podesta runs the Soros-funded Center for American Progress, which has been coordinating the public defense of ACORN this summer. |
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| First, let me remind you that all of your Congressional Democrats voted to move ahead and finance that war. |
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| I know it's an inconvenient fact, but still. Stop trying to make the war part of this subject- it just isn't, and has nothing to do with internal corruption in ACORN. |
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| My argument is simple - you are mad about wasteful spending on a program like ACORN, a program that has taken a pittance of taxpayer money compared to other government-funded programs and contracts, and I am simply demonstrating your anger is misplaced when a comparison in full context to other programs is made. |
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| Secondly, I can't demonstrate that Obama is tied to ACORN? Are you forgetting that he represented them as their attorney in 1995? |
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| Obama represented ACORN in a voter registration case, but he was not a staff attorney. Obama worked for the civil rights firm Miner, Barnhill and Galland. He represented ACORN along with other plaintiffs in a case against the governor of Illinois, demanding that the state better enforce a new federal law known as "motor voter," which allowed people to register to vote when they got their driver's license. We rated this statement Half True. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...th-obama-acorn/ |
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| Are you forgetting his words from December 1st, 2007 when he said this at a speech in Des Moines---> Snap... telling ACORN they will be helping shape the agenda. The examples are too plentiful to list. If you think the community organizer in chief is not tied to a major community organization group he represented as an attorney, and helped train in voter registration techniques, you need professional help. |
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| You mean like, how Halliburton had to compete (wink wink nudge nudge)? But here- it's demonstrated for you (a simple google search could have done the trick if you really wanted to find out). |
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| http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...333241444242458 The article has plenty of other interesting illegal activities perpetuated by this, as you believe, corrupt free organization with just a few bad apples. |
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| Let's first look at how they arrived at that number. It includes, of course, the same $2.2 billion that Boehner cited from the stimulus package. Vadum also adds $1 billion in the stimulus for Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) funds. ACORN could potentially tap into that, he said. The remaining $5.5 billion comes from the Obama administration's proposed 2010 budget, specifically the budget for Housing and Urban Development. The budget plan includes $1 billion for an Affordable Housing Trust Fund, plus $4.5 billion more for CDBGs. CDBGs have been around since 1974. Obama is seeking to increase the CDBG budget from about $3.6 billion in 2009 to $4.2 billion next year. And then there's the additional $1 billion for CDBGs in the stimulus. But the point is, this isn't some new pot of money that hasn't been available in years past. To the extent ACORN has been eligible for CDBG money for decades, it is available to ACORN now. But the fact is, ACORN isn't eligible for CDBG funding. At least not for the controversial voter registration efforts that Republican leaders claim are a willful effort to forward the group's liberal agenda. ACORN has a complex corporate structure. It's actually a network of affiliates. The ACORN that Republicans love to hate gets involved in political activity like voter registration. But there are other entities, like the sister company, ACORN Housing Corporation, a nonprofit that provides free housing counseling to low and moderate income homebuyers. Some of the ACORN Housing affiliates have also dabbled in affordable housing projects and have received federal funding. But ACORN Housing doesn't get involved in voter registration activities. CDBG money is given to local governments and states to use as they see fit for community development projects. But there are strings attached. CDBG rules list eligible uses of the money, including such things as building sidewalks, sewers and affordable housing, mostly. Specifically ineligible: "political activities." In other words, ACORN can't use the money for voter registration. According to the Washington Examiner 's report, ACORN and its affiliates have received $53 million from the federal government since 1994. Most of that federal money went to the ACORN Housing Corporation, which by law could not be used for voter registration. We checked, and there is no money in the stimulus package or the budget for voter registration programs. So if ACORN Housing was to apply for and receive CDBG money, it would be for a very specific project. And legally, it could not be transferred to other ACORN affiliates to perform political activities like voter registration. But some ACORN opponents allege that's exactly what would happen. "ACORN is constantly shifting funding," Vadum said. If ACORN Housing were to get federal funding, "we don't know where it would go. The problem is that ACORN transfers vast sums of money around in its network all the time. We don't know whether the money would be spent on voter registration or other activities." According to a July 2002 report from the Employment Policies Institute called "Rotten ACORN, America's Bad Seed," tax forms show that since 1997, the ACORN Housing Corporation has paid more than $5 million in fees or grants to other ACORN entities. The report does not claim, however, that federal tax dollars were shifted into ACORN voter registration efforts. Asked what funds ACORN Housing has transferred to other ACORN affiliates, Vadum said ACORN Housing has paid over $1.5 million to Citizens Consulting Inc., which he describes as "the shadowy part of the ACORN network where money seems to disappear into." That's absurd, said ACORN executive director Steven Kest. Citizens Consulting Inc. is the accounting arm of the ACORN organization. CCI handles bookkeeping, payroll accounting and other financial management services for ACORN and its many affiliates. And ACORN Housing doesn't even use CCI anymore, as it now does its accounting in-house, Kest said. Bottom line, we don't see any evidence that ACORN Housing has transferred money to ACORN for voter registration, so we think it's incorrect for Bachmann to link federal money that ACORN Housing might receive with the more controversial voter registration activities performed by sister organization ACORN. Even more ridiculous is the suggestion that ACORN or any of its affiliates might actually get $8.5 billion in federal tax dollars. Vadum said his report has been misrepresented by many on that point. "The key word here is eligible," Vadum said. "Eligible is a pretty expansive word. I made it clear they are not going to get that full amount." Yes, he made that point in the Washington Examiner. But when Bachmann says ACORN could get that amount, it assumes the group would get every single dime in the stimulus for fixing up abandoned homes. And remember, they said they don't even have plans to apply for any of it. "We think it's a great program," Kest said. "But that's not money we are applying for." And they'd also need to get every single dollar allocated through the CDBG program. That's beyond preposterous. Those grants are allocated to thousands of organizations around the country to perform very specific community development projects. "These are competitive grants for very specific projects," Kest said."The money can only be used for the project you bid for. It can't go to voter registration. If you've ever had any experience with grant funding from the federal government, they do a good job of making sure the money is used for the purposes it was intended. You can't use the money for any other reason. You can't transfer the money to other vehicles for other purposes." Charges of voter registration fraud by members of ACORN during the 2008 elections are a serious matter. Investigators allege ACORN employees tried to fraudulently register thousands of ineligible voters. Among them, one Mickey Mouse. But Bachmann's statement is irresponsibly misleading on several levels. She says the group under indictment for voter registration fraud could tap into billions of federal dollars. In fact, none of the federal money can be used for voter registration activities. An affiliate like ACORN Housing could conceivably apply for a grant to build an affordable housing project, or to buy, fix and sell abandoned homes, but that's exactly what the money would have to be used for. Suggestions that one of the affiliates might funnel money to ACORN for political activity is, so far, unsubstantiated conjecture. And then there's the matter of trying to make a splash by throwing out the massive $8.5 billion number, suggesting ACORN "could get" it, as in all of it. That's absurd. We rule Bachmann's statement False. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...billion-federa/ |
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| Vadum said his report has been misrepresented by many on that point. "The key word here is eligible," Vadum said. "Eligible is a pretty expansive word. I made it clear they are not going to get that full amount." |
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| You need to acknowledge more than that... that there is a pervasive and systemic seed of corruption in ACORN that is germinating. All organizations have their share of fuck ups, but this is NOT the norm. |
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| In other words why are you proposing an expensive and retarded military solution to achieve a geo-political solution when any number of alternative and more effective solutions are available to us? Hey, why don't we revive a Reagan-esque star wars ABM system at the cost of TRILLIONS of dollars and base the janitorial staff in Poland not because we actually care about nuclear deterrance but ummm yea so Poland won't get attacked??? FFS no wonder why the GOP is so out of touch with reality. Talk about black and white ... it's like they have no concept of Realpolitik at all. http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...12&pagenumber=3 |
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| That is bullshit about James O'Keefe saying that in the context you are presenting... show me the exact quote on record of him saying he specifically went after ACORN because they register minorities. |
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| "Politicians are getting elected single-handedly due to this organization, |
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| That is a pathetic attempt at injecting race into this, and no doubt a paraphrased comment by Media Matters or the like in the same way Maureen Dowd said Joe Wilson was really saying, "You lie, BOY!" |
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| I watched every interview with O'Keefe and not once did he say that, and Andrew Brietbart never would stake his reputation on backing them if that were the case. |
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| And even if there was a racial context, which there isn't, it wouldn't change the facts of what was uncovered. You play the victim card for the poor and minorities almost as well ACORN does. |
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| You are heading off the cliff with the grand old GOP conspiracy theory of trying to squash the poor and minorities. You're better than that man. Yeah ACORN is basically like a missionary group, who's goal is to help those who can't help themselves out of the goodness in their heart. Fucking spare me. |
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| And if you want to talk about voter intimidation, please discuss what just happened with our wonderful Attorney General letting the Black Panther Party members off the hook for clear voter intimidation in PA during the election... carrying around a gun at the polling place, and who's myspace page said one of his hobbies was "killing whitey". Unreal. |
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 You know, it's quite interesting to me to hear rants and retorts like this. I always find it amazing how Republicans whine and complain about how bad government is, and then when they get into power it becomes their mission to defund and destroy government programs JUST TO PROVE THEIR FUCKING POINT. I'm more than happy to get into a pissing match with you on this, by all means let's compare the last 3 Republican presidents versus the last Democratic president and how much of taxpayer money was spent and thrown out the window. I'm sure you're more than aware that Clinton had the smallest government than any 3 of those last Republican Presidents despite their tax cuts and "small" government philosophies, but hey, don't let that get in your way. |
This thread is awesome.
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| Originally posted by Brahman A problem relative to billions misspent on private contractors and yet nothing done about that? Not really. Never saw the government break a contract with Halliburton or KBR. |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Your examples are valid however what's that got to do with what's going on in ACORN? |
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 |
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| "It was probably, in the end, a complete waste of taxpayer money," said John Wolkonowicz, a senior auto analyst at IHS Global Insight, Lexington forecasting firm. "The dealers, who were supposed to be the primary beneficiaries, many were forced into cash flow problems because the government didn�t pay them in a timely fashion." |
Single payer universal healthcare is the way to go. The United States is the ONLY industrialized country that does not provide universal healthcare and surrenders it to greedy corrupt profiteering corporate executives whose sole purpose is to save as much money for the shareholders as possible and deny coverage to their policy holders.
Life Expectantcy:
Canada: 81.23
Israel: 80.73
Japan: 82.12
Germany: 79.26
UK: 79.01
USA: 78.11
Instead of paying exorbitantly high premiums for crappy coverage from insurance companies making hundreds of millions in profit, we should pay into a cooperative or government run insurance fund which covers everyone. Nobody should pay ONE CENT for primary medical care. Not one fucking cent. We have money to bomb the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but can't make sure that our citizens have healthcare. Conservatives boil my blood on this one. Afghanistan, they need they'r freedom! But fuck our own country, fuck the least among us who can't help themselves, who work and do everything right, but just can't afford to pay for catastrophic losses due to healthcare.
Societies are judged by how they treat the least among them. Well, in America, we sure as hell aren't at the top of that list. The richest country in the world, choosing bombs over medicine. For fuck's sake, when is this country going to wake the fuck up!?
Countries like Germany, the UK, and France not only have universal healthcare, but free college education, among other things. If countries far lower on the economy bracket can afford these things and successfully at that, why the hell can't the richest country on earth do it? America is morally bankrupt.
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| Originally posted by Communist Single payer universal healthcare is the way to go. |
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| The United States is the ONLY industrialized country that does not provide universal healthcare and surrenders it to greedy corrupt profiteering corporate executives whose sole purpose is to save as much money for the shareholders as possible and deny coverage to their policy holders. Life Expectantcy: Canada: 81.23 Israel: 80.73 Japan: 82.12 Germany: 79.26 UK: 79.01 USA: 78.11 |
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| Instead of paying exorbitantly high premiums for crappy coverage from insurance companies making hundreds of millions in profit, we should pay into a cooperative or government run insurance fund which covers everyone. Nobody should pay ONE CENT for primary medical care. Not one fucking cent. We have money to bomb the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but can't make sure that our citizens have healthcare. Conservatives boil my blood on this one. Afghanistan, they need they'r freedom! But fuck our own country, fuck the least among us who can't help themselves, who work and do everything right, but just can't afford to pay for catastrophic losses due to healthcare. |
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| The reason she thinks that there are more people covered under her plan than mine, is because of a mandate. It is not a mandate for the government to provide coverage to everybody. It is a mandate that every individual purchase health care. And the mailing that we put out accurately indicates that the main difference between Senator Clinton's plan and mine is the fact that she would force, in some fashion, individuals to purchase health care. |
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| Societies are judged by how they treat the least among them. Well, in America, we sure as hell aren't at the top of that list. The richest country in the world, choosing bombs over medicine. For fuck's sake, when is this country going to wake the fuck up!? |
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| Countries like Germany, the UK, and France not only have universal healthcare, but free college education, among other things. If countries far lower on the economy bracket can afford these things and successfully at that, why the hell can't the richest country on earth do it? America is morally bankrupt. |
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| Originally posted by The17sss Why... because politicians tell you this? If you are to believe the premise being used in passing Obamacare, that the public option is to create competition and "make insurance companies honest" (which we all know is bullshit), then why are you in favor of being beholden to an entity that will have no competition (since they do not have to show a profit to operate and can print their own money)? |
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| Think about this rationally man. If this is such a dire emergency, if, as the Democrats say, "We need to do this NOW... we need to pass it YESTERDAY... the suffering of the uninsured can no longer be tolerated.... we needed to pass it in August before the recess. Now we need to pass it by Thanksgiving"......... then why the fuck would it not go into effect until 2 months after the 2012 election? Take the emotion out of it and think rationally. The best answer is that Obama knows that the more people see what's in the plan, the more they realize it's filled with taxes, mandates, rationing, government control... waiting until after the next presidential election to make it effective is an admission that he knows the people wont like it once it is in effect and their wallets feel the fallout. Assuming he gets elected again, it would be too late to change that; otherwise, why such a need to hurry up and wait? |
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| Boiler plate liberal democrat talking points, and buying hook, line, and sinker into the class warefare rhetoric. Why not open up insurance plans to compete across state lines? That would increase competition and lower costs in a heartbeat. Insurance companies currently have over 1500 mandates by the federal government on how insurers ar to operate in their states, who they can sell their plans to, what kind of plans they can sell, etc. Some insurance companies can't even sell packages their customers want! I'm not saying insurance companies are without fault, but don't be so quick to demonize them for everything. BTW- companies exist to make a profit, not work as charities. |
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| You don't get it, Jesus. When you become a budget item for the government in health care, the only way to stay "under budget" is for rationing to take place. It's a fact man. Fuck our country and the least among us who can't help themselves??? LOLOL!! We are more giving to the least among us than anywhere! What is considered "poor" in this country is considered rich in many others. People get unemployment checks for 79 fucking weeks now... FREE MONEY from the government without having to work, and that is about to get extended to 92 weeks. The people who don't get treated for catastrphohic circumstances are more frequently seen in the countries who's health care system you seem to love... but the truth is here, you can't legally be denied if you walk into an emergency room. |
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| Oh, and for the record, 80% of Americans OVERALL are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them; 61% are satisfied with the COST of their medical care. 87% of people eare happy with the care they get through private insurance, and 61% of those are satisfied with the costs. And....50% of the uninsured are satisfied with their medical care. http://www.gallup.com/poll/123149/C...-Americans.aspx |
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| And the more people are finding out about WHAT this piece of shit HR 3200 consists of, the less they want it. As of today, only 41% now favor Obamacare and 56% oppose it. Support among senior citizens has fallen to 33%. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...lth_care_reform |
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| You are following the lie like a pied piper my man. The Democrats will have to vote against the will of the people to pass this, because the majority of Americans DO NOT WANT IT. You are the one who doesn't get it. |
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| Your messiah, who ran AGAINST individual mandates during the campaign said this in a debate with Hillary: |
Still mad conservatives got their asses handed to them huh? 
I sure hope health insurance becomes a mandate and not only that, for-profit health insurance completely phased out unless they want to insure stuff like cosmetic surgeries. | quote: |
| But he is fully supporting the bill being served up which now will give a $1900 fine for not purchasing health coverage, you will be charged with a crime, AND you will face up to a year in jail or a $25,000 fine. Are you motherfucking kidding me!? That is a fantastic idea for a free nation. Possible jail time and an/or an additional $25K fine? http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0...firmation_.html |
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| It's really sad that you are so warped by the radical left's browbeating that you fail to see how much good and positive things happen in this country, and how lucky you are to live here. |
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| Yeah they have universal healthcare alright, and those systems are corroding from the inside out while their tax rates are subtantially higher. IT IS NOT FREE. The UK, Canada, and elsewhere... the wait times get longer, the rationing gets worse, and the quality of care declines. I must have at least 100 articles I could link you to describing the slow, incrementally creeping horrors of universal health care systems if you're interested; of course you're not going to get any of those from the Obama supporting media here. |
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| Canada's new surgeon general just said their universal health care system is about to go belly up, and they best way to save it is for a private health care market to develop, which is happening in British Columbia as reported in today's LA Times. Government health care is a plan for government dependency, plain and simple. |
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| Dude... this "I hate America" stuff is getting old. We are morally bankrupt? Do you have any earthly idea how much money we voluntarilly give to charity? $300 BILLION... with a B, went to charity in this country last year. Who is the first on the scene in places like Indonesia after the Tsunami (and countless other examples) offering aid? What... you think Libya is at the top of the speed dial on those calls? There is more good and optimism among the people of this country than you can imagine... it's a shame you're too wrapped up in hate to see it. |
...I find your blind nationalism counter-productive in your refusal to believe America is anything but a heaven on earth. It isn't and America isn't God's gift to the world. We have a serious problem with our healthcare system, a PUBLIC need, which our peers have successfully addressed, but unfortunately, our country won't.
Is it just me or is Krypton moving further to the left and the17sss moving further to the right with each passing day?
You guys wonder why nobody posts in the PDD anymore - it's because nearly everyone has radicalized and there's hardly any room for give and take in discussion now.
I'm kind of sick of this debate, but I will throw this in there regarding rationing. You would have to be crazy not to think there will be rationing of care at some level given current proposals. It is simply not feasible to try to bring that many tens of millions of people into the fold on any sort of limited budget and NOT have to ration care at some level. The argument is valid. It is mathematically irrational to believe otherwise with such conviction.
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| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Is it just me or is Krypton moving further to the left and the17sss moving further to the right with each passing day? You guys wonder why nobody posts in the PDD anymore - it's because nearly everyone has radicalized and there's hardly any room for give and take in discussion now. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka I'm kind of sick of this debate, but I will throw this in there regarding rationing. You would have to be crazy not to think there will be rationing of care at some level given current proposals. It is simply not feasible to try to bring that many tens of millions of people into the fold on any sort of limited budget and NOT have to ration care at some level. The argument is valid. It is mathematically irrational to believe otherwise with such conviction. |
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| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Is it just me or is Krypton moving further to the left and the17sss moving further to the right with each passing day? You guys wonder why nobody posts in the PDD anymore - it's because nearly everyone has radicalized and there's hardly any room for give and take in discussion now. |
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| Originally posted by The17sss Krypton moving further to the left, yes. It's a stunning dichotomy because in real life, he is striving to build and run a successful capitalist business endeavor based on profit to improve the life of himself and his family. |
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| He is now advocating the ultimate mistake in governmental hubris: assuming that a small group of politicians untrained in running businesses are experts over a majority of those who do... you can't subscribe to that kind of Statist thinking without believing those politicians are intellectually and ethically superior to the masses. |
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| He is now saying, forget what the people want... the majority of the population is stupid and can't make decisions for themselves, only government can; and if the masses don't subscribe to this particular form of health care legislation, we know what's best for them because we're intellectually superior and we need to hold their hands and "do what's best for them". |
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| Me moving further to the right? Not happening- my views remain unchanged. |
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| Originally posted by Comrade Stalin I am not for the government controlling the means of production of the economy. That's just one giant straw man argument. |
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| The premise of your argument is abjectly false. No one is advocating politicians running healthcare. We are advocating for a system in which the public good of healthcare is provided for by the taxpayers instead of private insurance companies. How about our tax dollars going to serving us the taxpayers instead of buying $1 million bombs destined for Ali Baba in his cave. |
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| The minute a first-world country has �free� health care, it becomes the provider of choice to anyone who can get there, particularly for any long-term ailments requiring state-of-the-art medications. In 2004, Britain�s Health Protection Agency revealed that 44 percent of HIV patients being treated by the National Health Service were not residents of the United Kingdom at all, but from southern Africa. In essence, a huge number of AIDS patients in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi, Swaziland, and Lesotho have decided to outsource their health-care needs to British taxpayers. Similar trends will manifest themselves here in nothing flat. |
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| You must be referring to those polls you posted and to which I addressed each one on how ridiculous they are. I'll say again, if 61% of Americans are satisfied with health care costs, that means they are satisfied with America spending multiple times more money on healthcare than our Western peers and their commie healthcare as a percentage of GDP. If 61% of Americans truly believe that, and I doubt they do, then yes, they are idiots. Yes 61% of Americans are idiots. There I said it. |
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| I assume you agree with 99% of the things Rush Limbaugh says, and that man is way off the center right. |
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| Originally posted by The17sss So you don't advocate 80% of AIG being owned by the government now? Or GM being owned by the government? Or 16% of the private sector economy being run by the gov... oh wait, yes you do. Politicians have more power over the banking industry than any banker, more control over the automobile industry than any private sector executive, and demand more power over medicine than any doctor. |
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| But they will if HR 3200 passes... they will have the ultimate say when they control the purse strings. What's abjectly false is the premise that a government controlled healthcare system will lead to improvements in quality of care, service, and will be "deficit netural" as Obama hilariously claims. Name 1 single government run program that can be used as a model to private sector entities, and has not gone substantially over budget. Here is a perfect example of what will happen to us here, as is happening in the UK now, pointed out by Mark Steyn: |
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| more unintended consequences from liberal policies. but the intentions are soooo good |
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| You addressed what you perceive to be rediculous because you don't see eye to eye with the majority of the people polled. You can't deny it man- a clear and large majority prefer their quality of coverage, perfer the cost of it, and a majority oppose HR 3200. |
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| I don't... do you agree with 99% of what Keith Olbermann says? |
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| Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Rationing? Obvious scare tactic. Everyone gets treated if they really need it. |
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| Originally posted by Comrade Stalin There is a limited number of resources so of course there is rationing. |
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| But healthcare is a public good which should not be in the hands of for-profit corporations. |
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| Originally posted by The17sss let's be honest- our president presented the illusion of being a centrist to win an election, and has been sprinting to the left ever since... the more his agenda, expiring promises, radical associations, and lies/hypocrices get exposed the more angry I get. |
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| Lebez, you can't possibly be satisfied with the direction we're being taken either. Despite our differences, I think you're a really smart guy- and I would bet you believe in fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility for achievement, not relying on government to provide and sustain your life, and keeping the majority of the money you earn. |
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| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I just don't see it that way. I'm pissed at Obama too for a couple of reasons, but sprinting to the left is certainly not one of them. His domestic policy proposals are in a shambles. He's taken no action on education or social equality (at least since his first week in office), and his health care position is muddled and ineffectual. So yeah, I'm not happy, but to be honest I think it's because he's too busy trying to placate both sides of the political divide to take any action on anything. |
It makes me sick that so many people oppose Obama trying to reform health care, they think it's some kind of government takeover. Ridiculous.| quote: |
| Governments are created to provide national security and national development - we're not done with that mission yet. |
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| Originally posted by ziptnf I think health care falls under national development, doesn't it? The nation can't exactly improve if everyone is sick |
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| Originally posted by Shakka You are conflicted. |
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| Healthcare is a service provided by profit-minded individuals that have spent years of their lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars educating and preparing themselves so that they can make a comfortable living for themselves and their families. They have the exactly the same rights as you do. I've yet to read a compelling argument to the contrary which doesn't completely disregard the rights of those individuals. |
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| Originally posted by Comrade Stalin No I'm not. The argument that there will be rationing is ridiculous. Of course there will be rationing. Right now that rationing is according to one's ability to afford healthcare. This just shouldn't be. |
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| The issue is how do we provide access to healthcare in the same way everyone has free (through tax payment) access to public sidewalks and streets. It's a public good. Sorry if Dr. Johnson can't make $1 million a year. Doctors live very well in the UK, Canada, etc. Going by your logic, electricians have a right to get paid huge salaries too, but they'r being held back by the monopolized public utilities! |
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Do you want your tax dollars going to buying bombs or do you want it to actually work for the people? You'rE paying taxes and not receiving anything in return for it. Don't you have a problem with that? The reason people in the EU and Canada OVERWHELMINGLY support universal healthcare is because they know their tax dollars aren't being spent on crap, but that they actually get something in return. Rich and poor. In America, most people pay taxes, and get absolutely nothing in return. This explains how people in these countries accept their high tax rates relative to ours. They actually benefit from it. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka OK, I get it. It's a ridiculous argument that is true. Ok, buddy. In other words, it's a valid argument that you can't really debate so you'd rather call it ridiculous and sweep it under the rug. You can't have a comprehensive debate without dealing with all of the issues and consequences and the reality that there will be rationing of care is a major point of debate. |
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| This is one of the most asinine statements I have ever seen. So Doctors are now the bad guys, but it's your fundamental right to extract whatever you think you need from them with no regard for their rights? I think your doctors should have a fundamental right to any of the profits you generate in your investment business. Sorry, but your success needs to be capped. Electricians have a right to charge as much as they want for their services and the market will determine if they are charging too much money. Frankly, that argument is both irrelevant and illogical. |
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| What if I want neither? I have a problem with the massive amounts of debt that our country is buried under. I want costs cut across the board. |
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| You have no idea why those people support universal healthcare. Perhaps they like it because of the perception that it is "free." Hey, free money! I like that! Americans get nothing in return for they're taxes? You're out to lunch and your arguments are flimsy as fuck. |
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| Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Sweep it under the rug? Re-read my post. I said rationing right now is done according to one's ability to pay. That should not be the standard of rationing and isn't in countries like the UK. |
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| Where did I ever say doctor's are the bad guys? See you'r just twisting my arguments to mean something completely different. Doctors are public servants just like police or firefighters. If a doctor wants to make $1 million a year, fine, he just won't be making that within the system. That doctor will still have the freedom to make his $1 million, just not within the single-payer system. |
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| As do I. How about we start off by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? The money spent there would have been more than enough to provide universal healthcare or college education. |
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| Once again, you'v twisted the argument. No wonder you can call my misrepresented arguments as "flimsy". |
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| The billions currently paid in premiums to insurance companies should be redirected towards the single payer system. There is plenty of money to fund this system. |
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| And yes, I do know why the high tax rates in Europe are accepted. EVERYONE BENEFITS. In America, FEW BENEFIT. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka So if current rationing is based on one's ability to pay, am I to conclude that your preferred alternative is rationing based on a person's need? That falls square in the category of the "death camp" arguments as old people are going to be at the bottom of the "need" camp given their generally lower life-expectancy vs. the rest of the population. This is very much a valid point of debate, and I think that you have further validated it. |
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| With your aww shucks comment about "too bad for Dr. Johnson, he just can't make his money..." What do you mean "within the system?" Are you suggesting he mow lawns on the weekend? Since when is a doctor a public servant? Unless he specifically works for the government, he is not a public employee. Since you are advocating the single-payer system, I guess you are advocating that all doctors should be employees of the state? Shit man, you have taken a dramatic turn to the left. |
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| How about we start cutting needless entitlement programs while we're at it? I'm willing to compromise if you are. |
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| Sorry, I fail to see any relevance in your poor electrican argument and your comment that Americans are getting nothing in return for their tax dollars is beyond ignorant, it's simply irresponsible and wrong. We get the best defense in the world, we have a phenomenal highway system (though I'd like to see more investment in high-speed rail), we have bankrupt social security, we have Medicare and Medicaid, etc., etc., etc., We get plenty of benefits. I have no idea what you were trying to get at. |
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| e.g. we should just hand over more and more money to the government. Whatever money is left-over they should just keep, too. |
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| Can you even substantiate this with anything tangible? |
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| If taxes aren't benefiting many people, as you claim, wouldn't it be irresponsible to attempt to raise them even more? You're just perpetuating the notion of class warfare at the end of the day. Wouldn't a more prudent and rational argument be to make better use of the taxes currently being paid into the system as opposed to just increasing them, resulting in greater government consolidation of power? |
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