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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit Are you sure i am retarded? A) dolphin's are being killed for meat B) cows are being killed for meat If you look at these dolphins alot of them are listed as least concern. (conservation status) I am playing devil's advocate here but clearly it seems you are nit picking between mammals. This is analogous to eugenics in a way.

No I'm not. It's really simple, IDK why you don't get it. When we kill a cow, it's OK by me, because we just breed another one.

With dolphins, when one dies, we have no way to determine if another will be born in its place. It's the same with many seaborne creatures.

It's not a matter of being ok or not ok with animal slaughter in general. It's a question of sustainability, and also respect for nature and the environment.

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Originally posted by Adam420 It's not a matter of being ok or not ok with animal slaughter in general. It's a question of sustainability, and also respect for nature and the environment.

wow thats very pompus of you to determine that. Did you see how i mentioned that most of the dolphins were listed as "lease concern in the conservation status?"

How are we respecting nature if we are essentially domesticating animals for controlled slaughter?

Watch a video of a kosher cow being killed (look on youtube) and tell me how its any different.

If anything cows are more closely related to humans on a divergence scale lol.

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Originally posted by Adam420 Or arabs?

yes why not. (clearly i was making reference to hitler's ideologies).

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit wow thats very pompus of you to determine that. Did you see how i mentioned that most of the dolphins were listed as "lease concern in the conservation status?" How are we respecting nature if we are essentially domesticating animals for controlled slaughter? Watch a video of a kosher cow being killed (look on youtube) and tell me how its any different. If anything cows are more closely related to humans on a divergence scale lol.

There are various ways to look at this. Yes slaughter in general is cruel but that is not the point I am contesting. Perhaps you look at this issue and see slaughter of animals in general as the problem, and if that's the case, clearly we're not on the same page.

As disgusting as the slaughter of animals is, it has been going on for thousands of years and is only going to continue. But don't you think it's at least better if we only slaughtered animals whose population we can actually control?

But I really think we're barking up a different tree here.

I judge all this by whether the animal is aware of its immanent death.

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Originally posted by Adam420 There are various ways to look at this. Yes slaughter in general is cruel but that is not the point I am contesting. Perhaps you look at this issue and see slaughter of animals in general as the problem, and if that's the case, clearly we're not on the same page. As disgusting as the slaughter of animals is, it has been going on for thousands of years and is only going to continue. But don't you think it's at least better if we only slaughtered animals whose population we can actually control? But I really think we're barking up a different tree here.

we can control the population of dolphins though. Right now most of them are listed as least concern (not threatened or endangered) This would be the equivalent of squirells. The method they are using in killing is rather archaeic and if they do want to turn this into a somewhat humane industry it should be managed better. (similar to the way they harvest salmon but lead cows in major plants etc.

I hate to hear the argument though that these animals are more intelligent thus they should be conserved where as the other animals are domestic and should be eaten. Domestic animals are simply wild animals that have been slectively bread. Their intelligence isnt reduced, their brains are the same and so forth.

Animals are intelligent with respect to the environment in which they live. A dolphin is intelligent since it can utilize echolocation navigate teh sea's as well as communicate with eachother. Bats are similar yet use echolocation to a higher degree of precision in hunting insects.

Cows (domestic oxen) have their own degree of intelligence that deals with herd mentality, migration and predator evasion.

Slaughtering dolphins is no different than killing whales or elephants. It just shouldn't be done whether they are endangered or not.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit we can control the population of dolphins though. Right now most of them are listed as least concern (not threatened or endangered) This would be the equivalent of squirells. The method they are using in killing is rather archaeic and if they do want to turn this into a somewhat humane industry it should be managed better. (similar to the way they harvest salmon but lead cows in major plants etc. I hate to hear the argument though that these animals are more intelligent thus they should be conserved where as the other animals are domestic and should be eaten. Domestic animals are simply wild animals that have been slectively bread. Their intelligence isnt reduced, their brains are the same and so forth. Animals are intelligent with respect to the environment in which they live. A dolphin is intelligent since it can utilize echolocation navigate teh sea's as well as communicate with eachother. Bats are similar yet use echolocation to a higher degree of precision in hunting insects. Cows (domestic oxen) have their own degree of intelligence that deals with herd mentality, migration and predator evasion.

you don't seem to grasp that dolphins and related mammals do not need to be a part of a diet in order to survive, and they should not...especially by the thousands. It's like supporting the use of chinchilla fur for clothing now days. It's poaching and it should be illegal.

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean you don't seem to grasp that dolphins and related mammals do not need to be a part of a diet in order to survive, and they should not...especially by the thousands. It's like supporting the use of chinchilla fur for clothing now days. It's poaching and it should be illegal.

I think that's a very dodgy argument. Many meats don't "NEED" to be part of the diet to survive. In fact I know a lot of vegetarians and even vegans that seem to survive just fine. Japan might run the same argument about europeans eating lamb (which isn't a major part of their food culture), or Australians eating kangaroo meat.

I have no problem with fur either.. if you've ever been to a truly cold country where it drops below -30C you'll know nothing is quite as good as natural fur.. it breathes and keeps you warm at the same time.

I think cruelty to animals (both in terms of captivity conditions and slaughter methods) needs to be minimised and we need to ensure any animals we use are not hunted to extinction. Beyond that any arguments about unnecessary killing of animals that don't happen to be a part of your food culture are hypocritical.

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Originally posted by astroboy I think that's a very dodgy argument. Many meats don't "NEED" to be part of the diet to survive. In fact I know a lot of vegetarians and even vegans that seem to survive just fine. Japan might run the same argument about europeans eating lamb (which isn't a major part of their food culture), or Australians eating kangaroo meat. I have no problem with fur either.. if you've ever been to a truly cold country where it drops below -30C you'll know nothing is quite as good as natural fur.. it breathes and keeps you warm at the same time. I think cruelty to animals (both in terms of captivity conditions and slaughter methods) needs to be minimised and we need to ensure any animals we use are not hunted to extinction. Beyond that any arguments about unnecessary killing of animals that don't happen to be a part of your food culture are hypocritical.

i was specifying the dolphin specie as a meat that is not needed, and highly full on toxins which can be extremely harmful due to the high levels of mercury in the meat, which i previously stated, making the massacres of these animals completely unnecessary, it has nothing to do with food culture, just basic logic. Lamb and Kangoroo ( which i'm sure is very abundant in AU) are well controlled species as well, and they are not being exploited in this inhumane manner.Im sure lambs and kangoroos are being raised as well for the use of their meat and skin, i don't see anyone breeding dolphins or whales for food.

Also seen what the procedure that is done to the animals in order to get the fur that will keep you warm in countries with that temperature? I know it is good quality material for the use coats and they look great, but that is not the point. I am positive you can find material that is not fur to help you endure harsh conditions in the cold.

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean i was specifying the dolphin specie as a meat that is not needed, and highly full on toxins which can be extremely harmful due to the high levels of mercury in the meat, which i previously stated, making the massacres of these animals completely unnecessary, it has nothing to do with food culture, just basic logic. Lamb and Kangoroo ( which i'm sure is very abundant in AU) are well controlled species as well, and they are not being exploited in this inhumane manner.Im sure lambs and kangoroos are being raised as well for the use of their meat and skin, i don't see anyone breeding dolphins or whales for food.

With regards to Kangaroos, wild populations are rounded up and shot humanely. The populations of various roo species are pretty well known so there is no danger of endangering the species. The mercury problem is also a universal one with many wild fish these days... an argument not to pollute the water if anything. Again necessity is no argument for me. If we only decided which animals to kill based on which particular meat is "needed" we would be stuck with one variety of meat, if any at all. As long as there is no cruelty and the species is not in danger of extinction I have no issue.

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Also seen what the procedure that is done to the animals in order to get the fur that will keep you warm in countries with that temperature? I know it is good quality material for the use coats and they look great, but that is not the point. I am positive you can find material that is not fur to help you endure harsh conditions in the cold.

I have seen footage of skin being torn off live animals which IMO is unnecessary and as far as I know not the standard procedure. If this was the only way to do it I'd be against it.

Other than cruelty and environmental concerns I simply have no moral qualms with killing animals. Synthetic fur exists, just like synthetic leather exists but neither are as good as the originals. As long as the originals can be procured without endangering a species or ecosystem and without being cruel then I have no issues with using them - the fact that it's a luxury rather than a necessity doesn't sway me really.

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Originally posted by astroboy With regards to Kangaroos, wild populations are rounded up and shot humanely. The populations of various roo species are pretty well known so there is no danger of endangering the species. The mercury problem is also a universal one with many wild fish these days... an argument not to pollute the water if anything. Again necessity is no argument for me. If we only decided which animals to kill based on which particular meat is "needed" we would be stuck with one variety of meat, if any at all. As long as there is no cruelty and the species is not in danger of extinction I have no issue.

Do you think the mercury level of a tuna is the same as that of a whale or dolphin that feeds on it on a regular basis? And by now we should know what animals NOT to kill, and im sure we would not be stuck with one variety of meat.
In any case, you see no problem with the killing of dolphins and whales specifically? you're okay with it? if the answer is yes, fair enough, no need to keep on discussing the morality of the issue.

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I have seen footage of skin being torn off live animals which IMO is unnecessary and as far as I know not the standard procedure. If this was the only way to do it I'd be against it. Other than cruelty and environmental concerns I simply have no moral qualms with killing animals. Synthetic fur exists, just like synthetic leather exists but neither are as good as the originals. As long as the originals can be procured without endangering a species or ecosystem and without being cruel then I have no issues with using them - the fact that it's a luxury rather than a necessity doesn't sway me really.

I know how great original fur is since i was given as a gift, a coat with inside rabbit fur lining, so i know how it feels and it certainly is warm and comfy. But like you said, it's a luxury and most of these furs end up for just that, designer tailoring material sold at high prices. Obviously, if someone lives in a poor village or Russia and animal fur is what you need, i won't judge someone against it. If dolphin and whale were the only animals that are available for your diet, what can i say, don't starve..but this is not the case..in the end, my opinion is that these animals are being exploited for bullshit reasons and i see nothing positive coming out of it.

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean Do you think the mercury level of a tuna is the same as that of a whale or dolphin that feeds on it on a regular basis? And by now we should know what animals NOT to kill, and im sure we would not be stuck with one variety of meat.

Sure we would. Once you decide to farm and slaughter one animal, that animal's meat provides enough protein and iron for you and that makes killing another animal simply for flavour variety a luxury doesn't it?

There are hundreds of animal species people around the world regularly eat.. whether farmed or caught in the wild definitely more than could be justified by pure nutritional need.

If we took PURE NEED of nutrient content as the sole criterion on which the killing of an animal could be justified then probably one red meat and one fish species would probably be all that would be needed.. any others would be being killed for the taste, not the need.

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In any case, you see no problem with the killing of dolphins and whales specifically? you're okay with it? if the answer is yes, fair enough, no need to keep on discussing the morality of the issue.

Many whale species hunted by the Japanese are endangered and not a major part of their diet/culture. I think the continued hunting of endangered animals for largely political motives is unacceptible. Other than that I have no problem with it as long as the methods used aren't cruel.
Nor do I have a problem with people eating wild venison, dog meat, cat meat, porcupine meat, monkey meat etc.. as long as the species isn't in danger of becoming extinct or the slaughter methods aren't cruel I see no difference between that and any of the various popular meats we eat for the sheer variety of flavour.

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I know how great original fur is since i was given as a gift, a coat with inside rabbit fur lining, so i know how it feels and it certainly is warm and comfy. But like you said, it's a luxury and most of these furs end up for just that, designer tailoring material sold at high prices. Obviously, if someone lives in a poor village or Russia and animal fur is what you need, i won't judge someone against it. If dolphin and whale were the only animals that are available for your diet, what can i say, don't starve..but this is not the case..in the end, my opinion is that these animals are being exploited for bullshit reasons and i see nothing positive coming out of it.

Again price, luxury and need are not relevant to me. Do you wear leather shoes? There are synthetic alternatives out there so strictly speaking it's not necessary. It's just that leather is the best material for the job so why not use it?

I think our chief difference lies in the fact that you see the killing of animals for human use as something to be avoided unless it is really needed. And I see the killing of an animal as justified as long as the materials are used, regardless of luxury or necessity and whether there are viable synthetic alternatives or not.

The whole reason why i debated in this thread is to prove a simple point. People see animals as selective onto which they can kill for whatever reason.


Its reallly really silly when you think about it. What gives a dolphin presidence over an ox? What gives a Whale presidence over an octopus? Although octopus' are extremely intelligent they have evolved seperatley from us and are found in our food chain..

IS it because these animals look cute? Because they are so innocent? Have you seen a dolphin eat a fish. Do you think it cares about the fish? Or killer whales killing the seals? Or Even a lion devouring a zebra.

Animals are animals they have no sympathy for organism's outsie their specie unless there is a direct benefit towards them. This is their history of evolution. This is a world of survival of the fitest, not survival of the kindest.

A species of wasp captures a caterpiller and paralyzes each ganglion through its nervous system in order to keep it fresh for its young while they slowly eat it alive.

Now we are humans, we have evolved to be "humane" we understand pain and are very aware of unescesary cruelty and can sympathize. We are also omnivores and prefer meat for part of our diet. We are definatley spoiled when it comes down to it. How many species of animals do you know that have a diet that consists of more then 5 different food types? How many do we consume? Is it fair to kill multiple species for our diet? Do we really need oranges apples berries cows pigs chickens deer vegetables seafood in our diet?

Probably not. So before anyone goes on to say "ohhhh poor dolphins, they are killing them for food" think to yourself, how self much of a self indulgent hypocryte you are and accept it.


So let these three points sum up my opinion on the matter :


The species is of least concern in conservation status. (thus population control is not an immenant issue)

A more humane way should be found to harvest them for diet if they are to be consumed.

If you're not a vegeterian and still disagree that there is a difference between slaughtering dolphins and slaughtering cows then clearly you are hypocrytical and simply prefer to keep dolphins alive because you watched free willy too many times.




here is an orca in action. This is what free willy really does when he's free.

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean you don't seem to grasp that dolphins and related mammals do not need to be a part of a diet in order to survive, and they should not...especially by the thousands. It's like supporting the use of chinchilla fur for clothing now days. It's poaching and it should be illegal.

neither does any other animal.

We could very well survive on just tofu and vegetables. .. see my previous post above this one.

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Originally posted by astroboy [color=limegreen]Again price, luxury and need are not relevant to me. Do you wear leather shoes? There are synthetic alternatives out there so strictly speaking it's not necessary. It's just that leather is the best material for the job so why not use it? I think our chief difference lies in the fact that you see the killing of animals for human use as something to be avoided unless it is really needed. And I see the killing of an animal as justified as long as the materials are used, regardless of luxury or necessity and whether there are viable synthetic alternatives or not.

is your color font on default or you manually do it every time? just curious..anyways..i do buy leather accessories...jacket, wallet, bracelet...weather it be cow, alligator or ostrich...and i am also ok with people eating cat, dog, etc...i've lived in Asia and i know it part of the culture. But just dolphins and whales, along with other animals endangered in africa being killed for sport...im against it. The Tasmanian Tiger is my favorite animal, extinct from the AU by the colonists.
I guess i place species in different levels, depending on my preference, but i am completely against whaling and dolphin massacres as well as African sport hunting. I can't generalize animal slaughter, when it comes down to it, there are some species more valuable than others, i certainly value whales and dolphins and find no justification for the killing of these for food or other materials.

and Karim, right,? the preference of species is not because they are cute, but because they will be gone way sooner than any other animal if this keeps going the way it is. And it applies ofr many more other animals than just whales and dolphins.

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean is your color font on default or you manually do it every time? just curious..

manually.. since i randomly decided to type in limegreen it's just become a habit now.. i don;t even think about it.

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anyways..i do buy leather accessories...jacket, wallet, bracelet...weather it be cow, alligator or ostrich...and i am also ok with people eating cat, dog, etc...i've lived in Asia and i know it part of the culture.

Both accepted practices but certainly not strictly speaking "needed" for our survival, wouldn't you agree?

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But just dolphins and whales, along with other animals endangered in africa being killed for sport...im against it.

Indeed many of the whales hunted by Japan are endangered.. but others aren't nor are dolphins. What specific criterion separates these animals from thsoe it is acceptable to kill?

If it's endangerment then dolphins don't really fall under the category.

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The Tasmanian Tiger is my favorite animal, extinct from the AU by the colonists.

Indeed a cool animal, it is wrong to hunt species in danger of extinction. I hope one day they can clone it.

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I guess i place species in different levels, depending on my preference, but i am completely against whaling and dolphin massacres as well as African sport hunting.

Why? (Apart from the endagered species and any cruelty - which we all agree on)

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I can't generalize animal slaughter, when it comes down to it, there are some species more valuable than others, i certainly value whales and dolphins and find no justification for the killing of these for food or other materials.

Outside those that are endangered or threatened, what makes these animals more valuable?

Manually, yeah must be an auto reflex..i guess most of us lack the patience

Yes, buying those leather goods is simply for luxury and the quality of what im purchasing, but definitely not needed, however the leather comes from animals that are controlled, nothing endangered...and i will admit when it comes to cuisine i will try anything, i did try a liquor made from rhinoceros horn in Asia, because it was offered and i politely accepted the experience, as it will be once in a lifetime. But i would not personally purchase that horn, because it is endangered...i can see how it can sound hypocritical, but it was about the experience at the time, and a unique case with someone important, but i would not condone it generally.

Whales, yes definitely endangered...dolphins maybe not now, but as you can see how it is...just from one article, one clip..imagine over time, they will eventually become scare and these are great creatures that must be preserved in my opinion...like i said if these massacres continue with these species which we have no control over, and we are not breeding, they will become extinct..for what? sushi...If they were being bred and controlled my opinion on the matter would be different.

Yeah the Tasmanian Tiger,

last one from 1936, magnificent creature..there are rumors there are some out there but i doubt it...i do hope so though.

But yeah we can agree the way these dolphins are being caught is incredibly inhumane and cruelty and torture towards these creatures. What makes them valuable is that we have no control over them, and they are being killed by the thousands. And they're not fish, or chickens, or cows...they are very sensitive creatures and it does not take a research article to know this naturally. Personally i care about this issue, but protesting or debating about it will do nothing if the Japanese government does not place laws against this practice. So maybe it's just me that cares and im biased towards dolphins, but i see no flaw in arguing that these species don't need to be slaughtered and sold when we have no control over their breeding.

Not to mention the destruction of genetic diversity in the species which has taken hundreds of millions of years to evolve...

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Originally posted by Danny Ocean and i will admit when it comes to cuisine i will try anything, i did try a liquor made from rhinoceros horn in Asia, because it was offered and i politely accepted the experience, as it will be once in a lifetime. But i would not personally purchase that horn, because it is endangered...i can see how it can sound hypocritical, but it was about the experience at the time, and a unique case with someone important, but i would not condone it generally.

I'm not going to pull the "people like you are the problem" card because obviously you know the issue but don't really care... But if I were you, I'd keep very quiet about that, since minor things like that can make the shit hit the fan when told to wrong people...

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit how about us for killing cows?

the cows were born and raised to be killed by people...the dolphines were not. If they raised them to be slaughtered then I am all for it.

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Originally posted by Jackson Your basing this on....? Yes cows are killed...but in a controlled way.

Dude, thank you, I have been looking for a way of justifying the holocaust and you provided me one.

I mean as long as things are killed in a controlled way it is no more or less morally reprehensible right?

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit neither does any other animal. We could very well survive on just tofu and vegetables. .. see my previous post above this one.

Truthfully, you don't even need the tofu; however, you may want to throw some grain into the mix.

As for killing the dolphins; it definately didn't look like the most humane hunt I've ever seen.

Anybody know how much a dolphin skin briefcase would run me?

Dolphine steaks are quite good.

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