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-- Do any of you guys with pro gear....
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If you think any of those tracks have even the slightest bit of originality you need to expand your tastes & do some research

yes they used good techniques to maybe make their tracks stand out, but original? no.

plus you need to realize that alot of it comes down to taste because i for one think that stuart price remix of that lady gaga (lol) track is quite boring and nothing special.

this one is much better IMO - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUJ6...feature=related

Dude who the fuck cares? You know for a fact most of these gearheads buy because they can and because it makes them happy. For 99% of the people who have incessant amounts of gear on here it has ZERO to do with their productions. Some people just like to play with synths, or fool around making a new sound. Music can be a hobby for some. It's not so cut and dry as you're attempting to make it.

Buying and using gear has nothing to do with the end products in this day and age. I have bought a lot of software but I could easily spend a little bit more time and use all of the bundled software that came with Ableton.

In the end music is not a job for most of us. So you have no right to criticize people for how they go about one of their hobbies. You're just jealous some people on here are more fortunate than you.

And fyi this is coming from the biggest anti hardware person on this forum. With that said your argument is pure shat.

Why does it affect you what other people do with their money anyways? There are thousands of ways to make money in this world maybe you're just not creative enough to think outside the box? (which could also be why you're making this post)

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Originally posted by cryophonik Sorry, but that's one of the funniest things I've read around in here in quite some time. Using trance/EDM producers/DJs as your benchmark for musicality and originality is quite hilarious really. No offense to my fellow tranceheads, but if you want sheer musicality and originality, you'll be hard-pressed to find it in trance/EDM, which is highly formulaic and repetitive by design and leaves relatively little room for creativity, performance, expression, etc. compared to most genres. Look around a little and you'll see that it's a widespread problem for many newbie trance producers like yourself to think that they are creating something completely new, when in fact, the vast majority of EDM producers are just following the same old tried-and-true formulas that everyone else is following. That's not to say that there aren't some true pioneers out there in EDM, but you aren't one of them, so get off your high horse already and quit crying about what other people are doing with their time and money. How's that for ruffling some feathers? Oh, and welcome to tranceaddicts!

Cryo I really think if you weren't so upset at the op's comments you'd realize what a foolish and incorrect statement this is to make. I only am familiar with Schossow out of the producers he listed and I'm a big fan of his tracks because he is very very original. You're falling into his trap and mirroring exactly what he did by generalizing trance productions.

It's also horseshit to think that any idea has been used and abused. There are still loads of creative ideas and sounds that have not been used yet.

I know you wouldn't have said this if he hadn't personally attacked you but you're better than to fall into his games.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 Cryo I really think if you weren't so upset at the op's comments you'd realize what a foolish and incorrect statement this is to make... I know you wouldn't have said this if he hadn't personally attacked you but you're better than to fall into his games.

Why would I be upset? We're just having a discussion and he used me as an example - in other words, this thread isn't about me, even though I am a good example of the OP's point. I think the overall tone of the thread and other people's more "dramatic" responses probably cast a more negative light on my responses than are intended. Regardless, he didn't tell me anything that I don't already know and I don't strive to be seen as the most creative innovator out there - if you were to read my relevant posts here and on other forums over the past several years, you'd see that from me very consistently. Besides, I'm much more critical of myself than anybody on this forum is, including the OP.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 You're falling into his trap and mirroring exactly what he did by generalizing trance productions. It's also horseshit to think that any idea has been used and abused. There are still loads of creative ideas and sounds that have not been used yet.

His point wasn't to generalize trance productions, it was to call out the producers who have more gear than talent. That said, I stand by my comments, but don't take it personally and please don't misinterpret them - I like trance, house, etc. as much as the next guy, but it's not the most creative music out there, nor is it intended to be - that's what avant garde music is for, but have you ever seen someone try to dance to it?

I think people have got the wrong end of the stick. it was never my goal to personally attack peoples music, directing it at singular people. i wanted to voice my opinion and spark some debate on the subject of what i see as quite sad. lots of people buying gear thats not required. now i know id wouldn't have noticed this if i were less disgruntled about my own situation, but the fact is that its a point worth raising and discussing.

perfect example is another current topic where a guy is asking about labels which are more aproachable for a new artist to sign to. i suggest another approach which is probably at a complete tangent to how he has been trying (and being unsuccessful) with the bigger more preferable labels. and then a guy butts in saying i know nothing. i then proceed to check out the myspace of the person who questions me and realise he probably gave up sending to the labels he really wanted to be signed to and instead made another substandard label of his own which probably sells 5-10 copies of each release due to a complete lack of marketing/promotion knowhow.

It seems to me that the people who are arguing so hard against me are those very people who clutter the music scene with mediocre demos making the jobs of the A+R people tedious, and when their demo sending fails they just release the stuff themselves and clutter up the download stores instead.

Re: Re: Re: Do any of you guys with pro gear....

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Originally posted by DEAD_MOOSE surely someone else must see and hear what im talking about?

Of course these people know who they are and we are well aware of them as well. Who cares though? I don't care how its made as long as he end product is good. Don't think you are the only one who sees these things.

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Originally posted by cryophonik that's what avant garde music is for, but have you ever seen someone try to dance to it?

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Originally posted by cryophonik Using trance/EDM producers/DJs as your benchmark for musicality and originality is quite hilarious really. No offense to my fellow tranceheads, but if you want sheer musicality and originality, you'll be hard-pressed to find it in trance/EDM, which is highly formulaic and repetitive by design and leaves relatively little room for creativity, performance, expression, etc. compared to most genres.

Yes, dance music is quite limited in many ways, which is why it bugs me when people act like the particular variety of trance or house they like is so much more "advanced" than some other kind. Um, no, not really, they all pretty much follow the same musical form (unless you are talking about Orb 15+ minute tracks that go all over the place or something like that) and are not very high up the ladder of compositional complexity. That isn't to say they can't be good or that you can't compare them, but people should at least look around at other kinds of music and keep their opinions about the level of innovation and creativity in trance and other dance music down to earth.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Yes, dance music is quite limited in many ways, which is why it bugs me when people act like the particular variety of trance or house they like is so much more "advanced" than some other kind. Um, no, not really, they all pretty much follow the same musical form (unless you are talking about Orb 15+ minute tracks that go all over the place or something like that) and are not very high up the ladder of compositional complexity. That isn't to say they can't be good or that you can't compare them, but people should at least look around at other kinds of music and keep their opinions about the level of innovation and creativity in trance and other dance music down to earth.

Oh, but trance is the classical music of today, didn't you know?

Fuck, I couldn't even type that with a straight face

Why don't you all shut up and go make some tracks. Oh that includes me, I know.

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Originally posted by DEAD_MOOSE im happy with my old pc,and a legit copy of logic in terms of editing, arranging, recording and sequencing.

How do you run logic on a pc? That doesn't make any sense & is impossible unless you have an old version of "emagic logic'.

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Originally posted by SGL How do you run logic on a pc? That doesn't make any sense & is impossible unless you have an old version of "emagic logic'.

He did say old PC didn't he?

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Originally posted by Zild He did say old PC didn't he?

Ya, but he never said which version of Logic he has. I doubt he's still using 'Emagic Logic'. That thing is ancient.

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Originally posted by SGL Ya, but he never said which version of Logic he has. I doubt he's still using 'Emagic Logic'. That thing is ancient.

Many people do.

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Originally posted by Zild Many people do.

I See

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Originally posted by SGL Ya, but he never said which version of Logic he has. I doubt he's still using 'Emagic Logic'. That thing is ancient.

yikes. another great example of someone with the belief they need the most up to date equipment/software to be able to perform. just like the idiots who go straight to a apple laptop because "you need one to be a pro". we all see them. the important looking idiots who get their macbooks out on the train or tube and the moment you think they are gonna open up a copy of final cut to work on a bit of editing, they do one better and pop on a sitcom dvd and make sure everyone on the train can see they are watching it on the newest, flashest widescreen macbook you can get.

it makes me laugh the way so many of you are trying to pick holes in my music examples i gave. isnt it obvious i was listing dance tracks specifically because they apply best to the current discussion? i listed a handful of very popular dance records where a bit of thought and originality has gone into how they sound. im very aware the arrangement is strict when it comes to dance music and that you are pretty limited in terms of what you can do without moving away from what dj's/clubbers expect in a track. my point is that in these tracks they have been able to come up with something that fits within a genre but also stands out amongst so many music by numbers tracks.

I used to make traditional poppy stuff and found it way easier. Classical music allows you more freedom and less constraint and IS easier. A classical piece can wander and meander - no big deal, less discipline.

With EDM it's a real artisans craft to get repetition sounding sweet and I'd say very few get it right.

Lot of people that have'nt delivered a decent track, yet seem qualified to make pronouncements that EDM is'nt musically complex.
If it ain't so hard - post up your best track here and we'll see eh

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Originally posted by DEAD_MOOSE yikes. another great example of someone with the belief they need the most up to date equipment/software to be able to perform. .

I watch all those interviews that come with future music, and a lot of pros do not have this obsession with gear aquisition.

It tickles me when people have to constanly clutter thier computer with yet another bank of shite to add to the 1 million smaples thay already have to trawl.

I used to have a load a hardware, but I dont miss it.

One of the biggest dance tracks 'music sounds better with you' was controlled from some old ensonique workstation! No computer, no DAW, virtually no sample library and little equipment.

Claude Von stroke the master of minimal stuff onj a video I have here saying he had to send a track to his mate who knew how to set up a side chain as vonstroke didnt have a clue 'bout that sort of thing'.

Re: Re: Re: Do any of you guys with pro gear....

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Originally posted by DEAD_MOOSE Id say though that your myspace page pretty much sums up what i mean in terms of musical output. sure, the style is fluffy, happy, bouncy etc. sounds clear and well produced yes, but from reading your kit list i see an access virus, nord lead, etc, but from listening to the tracks on your player i dont hear any real milking of your equipment, or very much creativity. i just hear sounds that sound like the virus/nord presets that the bundled fl synths try to replicate. surely someone else must see and hear what im talking about?

stop being such a baby..."I'm too artistic (IE lazy) to work to afford real gear so Im going to rip on people who can actually hold down a job and don't run from responsibility"

Are far as cryo goes...his tracks are musically far more creative than 99.999% of the edm that comes out today. all you have to do is listen but maybe your too lazy to do that too.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do any of you guys with pro gear....

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Originally posted by justjabbin "I'm too artistic (IE lazy) to work to afford real gear so Im going to rip on people who can actually hold down a job and don't run from responsibility"

Cool. this sentence is just great. its like the type of thing you hear from someone who doesnt understand a mental illness but stands up and says the sufferer should "pull themselves together". you dont understand artistic minds, and i dont blame you for it.
im guessing you are one of these pen pusher types who desperately tries to be a deep thinker and a musician. problems is, you will never be one and you know it. this must be why my topic offends you so much. your avatar makes you look like a pro(with the textbook haircut to match the pro headphones), and your regular up to date purchasing of the beatport top ten would suggest to an unwitting club goer that you are a big shot, but really the main reason you do it is to try and make yourself look more attractive to the opposite sex. and when people like me are still working as an artist and musician in 20 yrs, people like you will look back and think "what did i see in it all?.. well at least i can appear like i did cool stuff to my kids"

I wonder what all these silly people, who buy Ferraris, Mclaren F1s, Koenigseggs etc, are thinking..
Unless they can drive like Schumacher, what�s the point?
Music for me is a hobby, and I�ve spend over 10 000$ through the years on stuff. It�s alot of cash,
and my tracks are amateurish at best. So there.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler I used to make traditional poppy stuff and found it way easier. Classical music allows you more freedom and less constraint and IS easier. A classical piece can wander and meander - no big deal, less discipline. With EDM it's a real artisans craft to get repetition sounding sweet and I'd say very few get it right. Lot of people that have'nt delivered a decent track, yet seem qualified to make pronouncements that EDM is'nt musically complex. If it ain't so hard - post up your best track here and we'll see eh

i think it is sort of immature to think of music in terms of what is "easier"

you are also wrong regarding classical music having a lack of form.
Classical music is stricter with form than EDM.

I use my gear to impress women. I don't know how to use any of it, but the LEDs sure look neat.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Lot of people that have'nt delivered a decent track, yet seem qualified to make pronouncements that EDM is'nt musically complex.

I can only speak for myself here, and since I seem to be the main focus of this thread, here goes. First, what constitutes a "decent track" is entirely subjective. Anyone can use the argument that the tracks produced by us hobbyists aren't "decent" to make their point, so that assertion holds little, if any, value. That said, having read many of your posts, it's obvious that your measure of what constitutes an accomplished musician is being signed to a label. I tend to disagree with that as a generality, but for the sake of addressing your point, most of us with "pro gear" on this forum are signed to labels (myself included). And, based on the overwhelmingly positive response that I receive to my tracks and the support I've gotten from some top DJs (e.g., Marcus Schossow), I'd say that counts for something. Other forum members here are doing far better than that. Does that in and of itself qualify us to proclaim the relative complexity of EDM? That depends on each person and how much experience they have with other genres.

What qualifies me to proclaim that EDM isn't complex is the fact that (a) I have a BA in Music Theory/Composition and (b) I worked as a professional musician for a large portion of my life and have experience performing and recording numerous styles and most likely have more live and studio performing experience than anyone on this forum. I'm not saying that to brag or to claim that I am the best musician in the world (or even on this forum, for that matter), but I did spend 4 years of my life learning under college professors and have a diploma tucked away in a box somewhere to show for it. It may sound arrogant, but my hard work does count for something and certainly does qualify me to have an educated opinion on the relative complexity of the many different musical styles that I have experience with.

Now, before you go away thinking "damn, that cryo is such an arrogant prick" (I already know that), consider that you made the claim above and I am just responding to your assertion that making what you perceive as a "decent" EDM track has little/no bearing on whether or not someone is qualified to understand the differences in musical forms. Also, don't think for a minute that my education and experience makes me think that I'm some great musician, performer, or producer. I know my limitations better than anyone and I also know that I'm not the best or most creative composer out there. I did very well in school (graduated with a 4.0 GPA in my music classes) because I was a very good student, not because I was a great musician. There are people that I know personally, on this and other forums, etc. who have a fraction of my experience or knowledge, but are far better at producing EDM (or many other genres) than I am and better musicians. Hell, some of my students when I was a bass instructor were technically more proficient than I am. Which brings me back on topic and back to a point I made earlier - you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, or in this case, a producer by his/her gear and their EDM tracks. This is all just my story - you'd probably be surprised to find out how much talent and musical knowledge many people on this forum have that isn't apparent from looking at their studio photos or listening to their EDM tracks.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler If it ain't so hard - post up your best track here and we'll see eh

...we'll see what, exactly? You want us to post our best EDM track to prove that it isn't complex? That makes no sense. Think about the creativity-limiting boundaries that are placed on EDM tracks (e.g., 4/floor kick drums, narrow tempo ranges, quasi-standard buildup/breakdown arrangements, etc.). How about you post your best/most complex track and we'll do a thorough harmonic/melodic analysis of it, then compare it to one of Bach's simpler piano sonatas or a Handel opera or even some jazz standards and you can see for yourself how simple EDM is in the larger context of musical forms.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Classical music allows you more freedom and less constraint and IS easier. A classical piece can wander and meander - no big deal, less discipline.

Richard, Richard, Richard...you really should consider your credibility before making such statements.

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