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-- What goes into a "professional" track?
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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I think the answers given thus far, while certainly valid, also exemplify the biggest problem with EDM and what really separates the amateurs from the pros in my opinion - too much emphasis on production techniques and not enough emphasis on: THE MUSIC!!! I've said it a million times and I probably sound like a broken record...errr...scratched CD by now, but the people listening to, reacting to, and buying music aren't impressed that you know how to use an EQ or a multi-band compressor if you can't write a hook to save your life.

Yes

and also

But


your music is VERY heavily focused on melody, vocals and instrumental performances. This is a good thing.

The other side of EDM is very much about the production and mixing. I know a lot of people moan about the loudness war etc etc blah blah but I actually like the in your face sound in certain genres. It suits it well.

I think both are equally important in EDM

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord I think both are equally important in EDM

You are also right man, because idea and quality goes together.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord your music is VERY heavily focused on melody, vocals and instrumental performances. This is a good thing.

While that may be true, I wasn't really referring to myself. And, yes, I agree that both production and musicality are both important but that's exactly where the problem lies IMO - the ability and gear/software required to make a technically sound production has become so readily available that there is often very little difference in quality between a professionally produced track and a very good hobbyist track.

The same can't be said for the musical aspect of it, though. Spend an hour listening to ASOT or something, then go listen to songs posted by hobbyists and you'll probably hear a huge difference in the quality of the music - most pro tracks have hooks that are catchy and memorable, employ a lot of expression, have good arrangements, etc. (complemented by killer productions), whereas most amateur tracks are lacking in the composition/arrangement department. That's largely reflected in exactly what is going on in these forums and in this very thread (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!) - everybody wants to talk about synths, gear, software, DAWs, techniques, etc., but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony and, when they do, the thread typically dissolves into a discussion of whether or not music theory is necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik While that may be true, I wasn't really referring to myself. And, yes, I agree that both production and musicality are both important but that's exactly where the problem lies IMO - the ability and gear/software required to make a technically sound production has become so readily available that there is often very little difference in quality between a professionally produced track and a very good hobbyist track. The same can't be said for the musical aspect of it, though. Spend an hour listening to ASOT or something, then go listen to songs posted by hobbyists and you'll probably hear a huge difference in the quality of the music - most pro tracks have hooks that are catchy and memorable, employ a lot of expression, have good arrangements, etc. (complemented by killer productions), whereas most amateur tracks are lacking in the composition/arrangement department. That's largely reflected in exactly what is going on in these forums and in this very thread (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!) - everybody wants to talk about synths, gear, software, DAWs, techniques, etc., but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony and, when they do, the thread typically dissolves into a discussion of whether or not music theory is necessary.

you are spot on.


Just incase you're wondering, i'm not just disagreeing with everything you say for the heck of it at the moment

I'm in a wierd position with music theory. I played piano up to grade 8 about 20 years ago then forgot everything I knew. I now claim that for me at least musical theory isn't that important and I tend to just play, or program what I hear in my head. The question I now ask myself is how much of that theory that was drummed into my head still remains and guides the notes that appear in my head as if from nowhere?

My other love is cooking (having been a chef for a while)

The similarity between the two hobbies is astounding sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony

So do you have any insight or tips on how to do this? I've been trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can in learning EDM production, and I've actually been able to learn quite a bit recently from forums, videos, and books/mags.

But I haven't heard that much about hooks/melody/harmony besides the question/answer thing.

Cheers!

side-chained white noise, apparently

quote:

Originally posted by cammaxwell So do you have any insight or tips on how to do this?

Well, that's easily a semester's worth of question there and without completely derailing the thread, I'd say that having a good sense of scales/modes certainly helps, as does chord progressions and understanding harmonic vs. non-harmonic notes, etc. Also, listen to melodies that you like and decipher what makes them great. Listen to much more than just the notes - listen for expression, dynamics, etc. Look for variations on that theme (or create your own for your own song). Also, listen to what's going on around the melody (e.g., harmony, rhythms).

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Well, that's easily a semester's worth of question there and without completely derailing the thread, I'd say that having a good sense of scales/modes certainly helps, as does chord progressions and understanding harmonic vs. non-harmonic notes, etc. Also, listen to melodies that you like and decipher what makes them great. Listen to much more than just the notes - listen for expression, dynamics, etc. Look for variations on that theme (or create your own for your own song). Also, listen to what's going on around the melody (e.g., harmony, rhythms).

This time i'll agree completely.

The very basics I was taught when I learned the piano are still what I think I draw on now. Glancing at the keyboard looking for a next potential chord if I don't just hear it often brings up a winner, or the inspiration for a winner.

I'm not so convinced that the theory behind it all is necessary.

A few piano/guitar/whatever lessons would be invaluable.

learn to play piano. it will help u make better melodies and chord-transitions, and also get a better idea on how a song can be devided into different parts and how they interact, piano is the most solid stand alone instrument imo and its about the only instrument i know about which can make a whole track alone without getting boring. and if u somehow get tired of edm u can still use your piano-skills the rest of your life for great things. while making the perfect kick will only get you that far.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!)

A bit off topic, but the page numbers are dependant on the setting you have in your profile (edit options - Default posts per thread). You can set it to as many as 40 posts per page, so you don't have to click backwards and forwards in threads.

On topic, I'd like to reiterate what Cryo said about focussing on the music. When I was a kid I loved music, and didn't have any idea about "production values". In truth, production values didn't matter to me back then, and today the song still matters more to me than the production. Sounds change with the times, but great melodies will last a lot longer.

Obviously, production is very important. You want to do the best you can in bringing your music across to the listener. On this point, I'd recommend always focussing on what you need to improve - constantly compare your songs to songs you think sound fantastic - compare the kick, the bass, pads, leads, percs, delays, reverb, effectiveness of buildups, and on and on.

Always look to improve the areas that are holding your music back the most.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik but the people listening to, reacting to, and buying music aren't impressed that you know how to use an EQ or a multi-band compressor if you can't write a hook to save your life.

i really really wish you were right. but you're not that's why the whole scene fcking sux.

if you DJ, mix your track with some professional ones in a set, you will better see what you should see in yours that are not equal to the other ones. You'll hear some pros say this, and i really agree. You will also find this relates in what really good producers tell you off the bat thats wrong with your track. just my two cents.

Some good replies in here, which I'm happy to see. I also see that some people did NOT read the rules! Now normally I'm not inclined to mod threads, but as the point of this one was to make it into a hybrid tutorial/FAQ topic, I will be cleaning up a lot of the idle chatter in here. Just giving fair warning.

Now for one of my own:


"Mastering" does not mean "Awesomizing"

Like so many other budding producers, I once used to rely on this excuse for mediocre (or just plain awful) mixing quality. It's a terrible obsession that afflicts many producers in the "intermediate" stage and your progress will just grind to a halt unless and until you cast off those shackles of ignorance.

Mastering can improve a track, but in subtle ways. If a track is dull or muddy or discordant, forget it. In most cases, your track shouldn't need to be mastered at all to be listenable - you should only start worrying about that if it's getting pressed to CD or vinyl or maybe (I repeat, maybe) if you want to use it as a demo and whore the track everywhere you go.

If you're unhappy with a track, and find yourself saying or thinking the phrase, "it's basically done, it just needs to be mastered", or investing a lot of time/money into mastering tools only to find that you can't seem to achieve the right balance - stop. Put it away. Go back to your mix. If it doesn't sound crystal clear to you then it is way too early to even be thinking about mastering.

For one, it seems to me that a professional track has all of its instruments EQed properly. This means not only that unwanted frequencies have been removed (e.g. cutting the low-end on nearly any sound that is not the bass, kick, or sub-bass) but that 'troubling' frequencies have been cut (e.g. mid and/or high-pitched 'whirring'/'humming' sounds) and other frequencies have been boosted slightly (e.g. bringing out the 'airy-ness' of vocals). It has taken me a couple of years to train my ears to recognize which frequencies need to be removed from my sounds; and now that I seem to have acquired such a skill I can immediately recognize when something sounds 'off'.

Edit: as for why I mention the above, in addition to the fact that proper EQing is necessary to make instruments sound 'good', EQing is crucial also because it helps one attain proper volume levels.

Well thanks Nick, I don't want to make it seem like we're just running through parameters but I DO want to genuinely talk about volume alone and its importance.

LOWER THE GOSHDARN MUSIC!!!

This is my tip of the day. If you ever feel a "need" to raise the volume of your track hi, your track most likely does not sound great. A good track sounds good at ANY volume almost, except fairly low. (and extremely high) But FOCUS on lowering your sounds as low as you can possibly bear. Torture yourself with temptation to raise the sound but do NOT succumb to it.

Then this is what you do, change the sound in w/e manner possible so THAT individual sound has PRESENCE at a low volume. In a well produced track, each sound is chosen and manipulated in great desire for this quality. Some sounds really just are THERE, either more due to the mere nature of the sample/patch, or more by the effort of your tweaking abilities. What ever the case, practice mixing at the lowest volume you can bear, then overcome this limitation NOT by raising the volume, but building a track based on *present* sounds.

Then watch how "phat, thick, or deep" your music gets.

woops, double post.

Something else that I always do in my music that I learned from, I believe a "Master Class" with Darren Tate. Basically, music that people like doesn't surprise us when we listen. That is, always warn the listener that you're about to do something. Put in a fill before a lead comes in, cut the kick a couple beats before everything else when cutting out the percussion, etc.

Again, be sure to "warn" the listener that you're going to change something.

1) Use your ears (there are no rules to making music)

2) Learn to use EQ (only to avoid clashing of sounds and to leave headroom)

3) Simplify your setup (don't be a gear-whore)

4) Get off the computer every now and then and see the world and experience different things (helps with inspiration)

5) Have fun making music (if it seems like 'work', then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing)

These are just a few things. I'm sure others can contribute to the list.

Well, I like this thread a lot, becuase it has professionalism on the topic itself.

From my experience as a producer:

Skills: Developes over time, the more you produce the more samples you'll have to play around with.

I consider skills in two ways. First, how well one uses the sound effects during a production. Second, how well one mixes with other productions.

Concept: A track built on any creative concept is an artform. If you listen to the track, and seperate all the instruments, and listen carefully how the track sounds as a band. You will understand the music and the message, as a Disk Jockey.

Technique: To make a production sound good is to make the recording as vibrant as possible. Never hesitate to playback and rerecord. To the ear, any new introduction of sound is melancholy. Spend time with a production, if you don't like it or doesn't sound yourself, move on to new production. Rework on the tracks later.

Trick: At somepoint of production, you'll realize that theres's barely any tricks to producing electronic music, it's just really simple, fun and anyone can do it. On second thought, you can do a lot with wave formats. I mean indepth analysis of sound, and configuration of key parts of your records before pressing them.

Tip: Explore and experiment with other Genres of Music.

I read it on a news paper, and it's true that when you start making you own music, you won't listen to others peoples music.

There are right off the pen, if I can think of more tips. Shall post later.

P.S. Avoid vocal trance of word play, and stop music and airwave pollution, even if it's original or pirated. Save your ears.

Hope it helps.

Do not amass lots of gear until you master what you have. Nothing's worse than having tons of gear and not knowing it inside and out. Some of the best results have been achieved by using system limitations. Think back to the days of classics - limited samplers, limited software (if any), limited polyphony, unlimited creativity.

Also, it becomes rather overwhelming managing all this gear - you spend time troubleshooting, wiring, re-wiring, moving, etc instead of focusing on music. I found myself strangely liberated with bare minimums - e.g. laptop, 1 synth, and maybe drum machine, leaving other 15+ synths in the basement. It has been strangely rewarding and liberating.

Lastly - you are your own harshest critic. Let others appreciate your "fruits" - you'd be surprised how many people may positively react to what you may consider rubbish.

My tip would be master thy canoe. If you know your gear better than anyone else, ou can be King of the studio.

Having said that I am 'sure' I need some amazing sound goodizer such as powercore, but I half suspect I could get as much clarity and punch just using my DAW?

use aesthetics as building blocks, yet fully use your senses instead of stereotypes.

quote:

Originally posted by SGL (there are no rules to making music)

Actually, there are rules for making music. Whether or not you follow them is up to you but there are rules.

rule #1: we do not talk about....

Realize there are countless different methods to employ when constructing a groove.
A groove is usually seen in the notes and how they are clustered together. Whether drums notes or leads that swing and move, I don't think a lot of amatures attempt doing this with certain effects. Or maybe they do it to a small degree, but don't incorporate envelopes as drawings. Most people I assume construct thier envelopes (and lfos) using mostly knobs, but when its drawn out in front of you as clips, you can add additional grooves to it that you can't really visualize by only using circular knobs.

When envelopes are drawn out like saw blades in a line, you can make them interact in really powerful and new ways. Take advantage of ANYTHING you can in your sequencer that can STRENGTHEN a groove. This is one thing I'm mentioning now. But even equal envelopes are smart to draw out or at least learn to incorporate visually. It really does give you a new dimension to your music because you can add a swing where there was none before. You can drop and add filter sequences in steps over a bassline. You can add swing to the sequence if you wish that would be much more difficult and sometimes impossible with knobs.

Also equal automations play a vastly deeper dynamic then filter automations. In terms of overall volume, drawing out equal envs can almost be done so certain sounds notch at the millisecond they NEED to be loudest, then dropout the millisecond another sound NEEDS to be loudest. With equalizers, you have a finer degree of intricacy drawing automations as envelopes. Peak the bass at 180hz the second the note hits then shave it out for whatever different element hits next. The next element may just be the same bass note with a bp filter lfoing up instead of a prior bass note on a lp filter lfoing down. You can draw all this out in tight little clips to create grooves.
Practice doing this and you will learn a lot of cool little ways to construct deeper grooves. Its fun because it may be different then what you normally focus on, and it is ultimately a skill worth having because of the new dimension it gives you in your mixes.

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