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-- What is making this kick so thumpy? =]
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quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I don't know how people can blow 10 grand on synths and not spend a single penny on treatment.

Agreed. I think a lot of the reason is because synths and effects are a much more sexy purchase than new monitors, room treatment or a new audio interface. It's easy to impress your friends with a "Look at my new keyboard" rather than a "look at my new monitors" or "look at my new audio interface, sitting in that rack over there". The average non producer person doesn't understand the value of those items, but they can look at a big keyboard and go "Oh, Cool!"

The problem is that you get so much bang for your buck with things like proper treatment, monitors and interfaces. If you are an EDM producer, you can have a JP8 sitting in your room, but if you can't use it properly in the context of a finished product, then what's the point?

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c i was kinda thinkin that poor guy cant post a thread without being flamed to hell lol.

Yeah, I agree. The amount of piling on that happens in his threads is really disproportionate and unnecessary, if you ask me (which, nobody did, so maybe I'll just shut my piehole now ).

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i think the only thing you can do is listen to music and compare and figure out why yours doesn't sound the way you want it to. Maybe pay for the trance class offered by point blank.

Are you in a bit of a mood tonight? i mean like im not trying to fight just maybe it would help if you let it all out?

*pats lap* come ere you tell uncle sonic whats up

Edit: sorry maybe i been in the cor too long this is not the place for that type of humour *makes that zippy mouth sign*

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c *pats lap* come ere you tell uncle sonic whats up

i changed it to uncle sonic cause his name is richie and my names richard so it would get a bit confusing

Edit: man im doing lots of edits anyhoot im drunk so if i offend anyone or talk shite then ill apoligise tomorrow. my intention is not to offend merely have some fun on me forum =)

Gracefully declined to respond, I salute you RichieV sir I salute you!

Just to see one person speak on my behalf really means a lot honestly. And there was more then that so thanks whoever stuck up for me.

Kit: I hear you loud and clear. But my simple question to you is "WHAT IS THE BIG EFFN DEAL if I complain?".

I wasn't even really complaining, I asked a pretty simple question and got some useful feedback. The process of learning and experimenting is not the same from person to person. I come here and post when I'm having issues with specific things, maybe you don't need to do that, but the simple fact that you are bitching about ME BITCHING just capitalizes on the fact that you have nothing else better to do.

You're doing the SAME EXACT thing I am in the end, you are bitching. Everyone does it, and I cant understand why it even bothers you that much that someone else has problems producing. It should make you FEEL BETTER if anything, seriously. And so what if I do it every week? I usually mix everyday so one question a week is not a big deal to me. I could ask 10 new questions an hour realistically but I don't.

In reference to proper treatment (think sonic mentioned that), no I do not have any treatment. That doesn't mean I'm ignorant to the concept though (before people jump on me for that too). 2 weeks ago I was watching a youtube tut on homemade bass traps. I do realize the importance of treatment (beyond just youtube & bass traps lol), but obviously not to the degree as someone who already has and uses them. And believe it or not that was going to be ANOTHER THREAD I wanted to make here, but I didn't. I just wanted to see if you guys thought they were truely affective, but reading through the comments on youtube made me believe its a perfectly legit way of doing it.

The thing that I CAN NOT understand for the life of me, is how retarded some people must be here who get on me all the time.

I'm not even sure some of you guys understand how much I ultimately LOOK UP TO YOU people in the end. Thats what saddens me. When I have a question that genuinely confuses me, I think "well this will prob be like learning abcs for the crazy bastards over at TA", (smart crazy bastards) and I come here almost like a student to his teachers. If you don't want the role of a teacher, thats understandable. But whats not understandable is some of the attitudes I get to deal with.

I continually get into it with Richie V at least once a week, but he still KNOWS I look up to him, (which is why I think he still helps me cause he does realize that fact) AND Digi, AND Cryo, ..Sonic .. Beatflux, Eric J, DJ Rann, and even sometimes Kit =] (I'm just kidding man I know you know your shit as good as anyone else). But before I gay out this thread anymore with ass kissing, all I want to say is thanks.
Perhaps I DO ask too many questions. Its cool, there was many years I produced perfectly fine before I ever joined here. So its no issue either way. If I bother you that much Kit what can I really say? "Sorry for asking questions"? Idk, if I need to go crawl under a rock for a few months and just produce its not a big deal.. I'll manage.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Yeah, I agree. The amount of piling on that happens in his threads is really disproportionate and unnecessary, if you ask me

I agree, quite frankly.

I've made many posts on this forum in many different threads, including Robby's, to the effect of "you need to rethink your overall approach / change your perspective" without turning the discussion into a complete shitshow. I don't think it's so much to ask for a little tact. Posts such as "STFU with your crap" or "retarded Robby thread" really don't add anything to the discussion - there's such a thing as constructive criticism.

Robby didn't say what kind of monitors he had - or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Either way, if he does have garbage monitors it could very well be part of the problem. One time I didn't realize I had accidentally turned my sub off, and finished about 3/4 of a track that turned out like absolute shit; I had to redo the whole thing when I realized my mistake. I'm not saying everybody needs a pair of $5000 monitors, but at the cheapest end of the spectrum, like say, a laptop speaker, it can really hinder your ability to make a track sound halfway decent.


Now can we please get back to talking about claps.

i don't get it . I said something nice. Why is my name mentioned here.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV i don't get it . I said something nice. Why is my name mentioned here.

No you did, I was gonna mention that I was confused myself about that comment but I think he really is just that drunk atm.

lol it all makes sense now

the alcohol
the thread with the kick

And I don't mind Robby . He is a regular so as far as i'm concerned he is allowed his say. And I can be a dick when it comes to music.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I agree, quite frankly. I've made many posts on this forum in many different threads, including Robby's, to the effect of "you need to rethink your overall approach / change your perspective" without turning the discussion into a complete shitshow. I don't think it's so much to ask for a little tact. Posts such as "STFU with your crap" or "retarded Robby thread" really don't add anything to the discussion - there's such a thing as constructive criticism. Robby didn't say what kind of monitors he had - or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Either way, if he does have garbage monitors it could very well be part of the problem. One time I didn't realize I had accidentally turned my sub off, and finished about 3/4 of a track that turned out like absolute shit; I had to redo the whole thing when I realized my mistake. I'm not saying everybody needs a pair of $5000 monitors, but at the cheapest end of the spectrum, like say, a laptop speaker, it can really hinder your ability to make a track sound halfway decent. Now can we please get back to talking about claps.

You're right I just said Alesis, they're the MK2.http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1MK2

I've read a lot of complaints about the low end in particular, but if the low end was under represented, (which is the main complaint) I should technically be having issues with my bass regions being too loud on other systems.
I'm actually having the opposite problem which is why I'm really confused. But would rather not get into it again.

I obviously just need more experience but I do feel like I've tried everything and mixes still don't translate like they should so idk.

They're fine.. start A/B'ing your tunes with pro tracks to see where yours lacks.. eventually you won't have to anymore.. Are these new monitors? Mine took me a while to get used to, but now I feel like I know 'em well.

If your music is coming out too low, they must be colouring that in particular.. learn the beast. Tame it Robby Tame it.. slide it in there mate

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox You're right I just said Alesis, they're the MK2.http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1MK2 I've read a lot of complaints about the low end in particular, but if the low end was under represented, (which is the main complaint) I should technically be having issues with my bass regions being too loud on other systems. I'm actually having the opposite problem which is why I'm really confused. But would rather not get into it again. I obviously just need more experience but I do feel like I've tried everything and mixes still don't translate like they should so idk.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox You're right I just said Alesis, they're the MK2.http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1MK2

Yay, same as mine, used them for about 5 years now. Really like them, although i dont know any better.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux You guys need to give Robbie a break. If he doesn't have treatment, then that can really fuck up his listening experience. I don't know how people can blow 10 grand on synths and not spend a single penny on treatment.

Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me.

Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me. Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience.

I thought he only spent 1k on it.

I think he knows better now...

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me. Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience.

Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools).

So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools). So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks.

I mean I can't argue with him but room wise I'm working in EXTREMELY limited circumstances.
The shape of the room itself is half cathedral, and I can't place my speakers on the down slope so its technically on the wrong side of the room which I heard is bad enough.

And to add, its so tiny and narrow my monitors can't be placed a proper distance apart. So I do accept responsiblity, but theres only so much I can do as I have no bigger rooms to put my shit.

Is there anyway to test a room just to see what kind of artifacts are being added to a sound? I imagine I'd have to place the speakers a specific way and use a mic to record some sort of calibrated sample from the center of the room or something? If anyone knows where I can get more info on this it would help. I just remember when I was reading about room treatment a while ago I came to the conclusion I was basically fvcked and there wasn't much I could do. I am rather curious though if theres anyway to test my room just to see how bad it is.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools). So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks.

I'm saying if you had more experience you'd know better where to allocate your money.
As it is, you have more money than sense, and you don't spend any time at all considering what you really need, you just see some pretty box adn say "That will make my music better!" and buy it on a whim.
Why don't you make a resolution to buy nothing at all for a year, and spend all the time you spend on the internet GASing producing instead.

OK, look, here is the deal. What they are trying to tell you is that there is a certain order of importance when it comes to purchasing gear. When you are starting out, it is advisable to sink your money into the things that will benefit you the most. Outboard hardware is about 5th on that list, so when you sink a grand into the Virus, you are essentially diminishing the impact of such a piece because you are ignoring the other 4, more important, pieces of gear considered "essential".

So, in order of importance, here are the things you should be sinking your money into:

1. Good Computer. Most producers, especially in the beginning are producing entirely inside their computer. So it is important to have a good, fast, reliable machine that you can produce on with a minimum of problems.
   
   In addition, do not use your production environment as a place to try out new technologies. Don't upgrade to the latest OS the minute it comes out, don't install beta drivers or questionable software, and don't use that machine for anything other than producing. Keep it lean and mean. Get a system up that is stable, fast and works well, then leave it be until there is a compelling reason to upgrade.
   
   
2. Good Monitors. This is essential because without good monitoring, nothing else matters. If you can't properly hear what you are doing, how can you know what is wrong? It doesn't matter how much outboard hardware or other gadgets you have if you cannot use it in the context of a finished product.
   
   You need decent monitors, especially in the beginning, because they will allow you to hear what is going on with your mix, thereby improving the overall product. As you get better and your ears get trained, then you can start to hear problems even on substandard monitoring, but it is essential to get your ears trained properly first.
   
   
3. Good Audio Interface. This goes hand in hand with good monitors. The audio interface needs to be able to translate the digital 1's and 0's out of your computer into an analog signal that you can hear, and it needs to do this reliably and with a minimum of coloration.
   
   Cheaper audio interfaces use crappy components which introduce artifacts into the audio and do not give you a clear picture of what you are actually hearing. This becomes doubly important when you start recording outboard instruments and the converters nee to be able to convert the analog signals coming out of your hardware into digital bits as accurately as possible.
   
   
4. Acoustic Treatment. This is important because most rooms in houses and apartments are acoustically bad. Sure you may get used to it after some time, but what happens here is that sound waves bounce around your room in such a way that it makes certain areas of the frequency spectrum seem louder or quieter than they actually are. You, in turn, will compensate for this by raising or lowering the volume of such frequencies. Often this is done without you being conscious of it. Then you go and listen to your mix in a car or on another stereo and you notice the bass is too loud or quiet, or the highs are too harsh. it sounded fine in your studio, so why does it sound like crap in my car? Because your room is boosting or cutting certain frequencies simply by virtue of its acoustic properties.
   
   Room treatment is designed to make your rom as acoustically "flat" as possible, so that what you hear coming our of yor monitors in your studio is "true". Then when you mix in your studio, you can take it to your car or stereo and it sounds pretty much the same as it did in your studio. That is the ultimate goal. The problem is that it can be hard to see how treatment can make a difference until you experience it, however, once you work in a treated room, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
   
   This one can be tricky because every room is different and many factors go into the "sound" of a room including shape, size and the materials used in constructing your walls, ceilings and floors. Proper treatment requires that you consult with someone who knows acoustics and you'll need to provide measurements of your room so they can design a proper solution. One size does not fit all. The good news is that you can usually get really good treatment for less than $1,000. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference it can make. I'd take $1,000 monitors in a properly treatment room over $3,000 monitors in an untreated room any day. It can make decent monitors sound good and good monitors sound great.
   
   
5. Other stuff. Once you have the above items covered, you can then turn your attention to things like outboard hardware and such. The good news is that if you have the above items covered, then purchases like outboard synths actually provide much more bang for the buck because you can use them more effectively.
   

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J OK, look, here is the deal. What they are trying to tell you is that there is a certain order of importance when it comes to purchasing gear. When you are starting out, it is advisable to sink your money into the things that will benefit you the most. Outboard hardware is about 5th on that list, so when you sink a grand into the Virus, you are essentially diminishing the impact of such a piece because you are ignoring the other 4, more important, pieces of gear considered "essential". So, in order of importance, here are the things you should be sinking your money into: Good Computer. Most producers, especially in the beginning are producing entirely inside their computer. So it is important to have a good, fast, reliable machine that you can produce on with a minimum of problems. In addition, do not use your production environment as a place to try out new technologies. Don't upgrade to the latest OS the minute it comes out, don't install beta drivers or questionable software, and don't use that machine for anything other than producing. Keep it lean and mean. Get a system up that is stable, fast and works well, then leave it be until there is a compelling reason to upgrade. Good Monitors. This is essential because without good monitoring, nothing else matters. If you can't properly hear what you are doing, how can you know what is wrong? It doesn't matter how much outboard hardware or other gadgets you have if you cannot use it in the context of a finished product. You need decent monitors, especially in the beginning, because they will allow you to hear what is going on with your mix, thereby improving the overall product. As you get better and your ears get trained, then you can start to hear problems even on substandard monitoring, but it is essential to get your ears trained properly first. Good Audio Interface. This goes hand in hand with good monitors. The audio interface needs to be able to translate the digital 1's and 0's out of your computer into an analog signal that you can hear, and it needs to do this reliably and with a minimum of coloration. Cheaper audio interfaces use crappy components which introduce artifacts into the audio and do not give you a clear picture of what you are actually hearing. This becomes doubly important when you start recording outboard instruments and the converters nee to be able to convert the analog signals coming out of your hardware into digital bits as accurately as possible. Acoustic Treatment. This is important because most rooms in houses and apartments are acoustically bad. Sure you may get used to it after some time, but what happens here is that sound waves bounce around your room in such a way that it makes certain areas of the frequency spectrum seem louder or quieter than they actually are. You, in turn, will compensate for this by raising or lowering the volume of such frequencies. Often this is done without you being conscious of it. Then you go and listen to your mix in a car or on another stereo and you notice the bass is too loud or quiet, or the highs are too harsh. it sounded fine in your studio, so why does it sound like crap in my car? Because your room is boosting or cutting certain frequencies simply by virtue of its acoustic properties. Room treatment is designed to make your rom as acoustically "flat" as possible, so that what you hear coming our of yor monitors in your studio is "true". Then when you mix in your studio, you can take it to your car or stereo and it sounds pretty much the same as it did in your studio. That is the ultimate goal. The problem is that it can be hard to see how treatment can make a difference until you experience it, however, once you work in a treated room, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. This one can be tricky because every room is different and many factors go into the "sound" of a room including shape, size and the materials used in constructing your walls, ceilings and floors. Proper treatment requires that you consult with someone who knows acoustics and you'll need to provide measurements of your room so they can design a proper solution. One size does not fit all. The good news is that you can usually get really good treatment for less than $1,000. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference it can make. I'd take $1,000 monitors in a properly treatment room over $3,000 monitors in an untreated room any day. It can make decent monitors sound good and good monitors sound great. Other stuff. Once you have the above items covered, you can then turn your attention to things like outboard hardware and such. The good news is that if you have the above items covered, then purchases like outboard synths actually provide much more bang for the buck because you can use them more effectively.

THIS.

I would like to add that the the need for treatment increases exponentially as the quality of the signal chain increases.

Off topic however Robby, I don't think I've ever had a go at you (and I'm not going to start), but you've got to stop this endless stream of conciousness posting. Every thread you start would be so much simpler if you just thought it out first before hitting enter. I can honestly say that is the case for 80% of your questions.

Don't get me wrong I think it;s commendable that you ask, and sometimes some good discussion comes of it, but so much is just uneccesary if you think about what you already know and then combine that with common sense.

Thanks Eric I appreciate it.

All I can say is I do absolutely intend on getting everything I need. But I still for the life of me can't understand that some of those things are as important as people here want me to believe.

If you put a truely talented pro in a shit studio, hes still going to have the ability to make a sound that 95% of avg producers with proper monitors can't. Thats because a good skillset is always going to bypass the minimal gains proper monitors and a treated room afford. You can say the gains aren't minimal, but compared to what a competent musician can accomplish alone, theres just no other way I can see it.

My whole first post was centered on the concept of technique. Kit came in here and told me to stop blaming my speakers, when my speakers were 1/100th of what my initial post was about. If I came here asking specific questions about TECHNIQUE, it should have been obvious to him that I ALREADY KNOW my technique could use work, as could anyones.

He basically came in and said "the sky is blue", well no shit, if he listened to my first post he would have noticed how redundant his original statement was. So I thank you for that list, but I still genuinely believe Kit is a moron.

I didn't want to turn this into a "lets go back to our abcs" thread. There are things competent musicians are doing RIGHT NOW that a large majority of avg producers aren't. I asked questions like whether or not people thought he was using compression/limiting on the kick because it didn't look like he was.

People came in and said he may be using a sub from vengeance and that he was most likely layering. I went and started layering subs from vengeance with low cut punchier kicks, and STILL his sound was thumpier. I know those subs have decay, that gives the kick a bigger feel, but there still remains a large variance between those subs and that sound imo.

THEN I noticed if you actually just play around with the pitch env on a lot of those subs, you can increase the thumpy feel 10 fold. I realize this is how kicks are made with sine waves, but had never thought doing it to a sub from vengeance.
Whatever the case, I came here asking another specific question, got tons of speculative comments, insults, and a good deal of information I'm not even sure is relevant (not talking about Erics list, Kits off topic antics somehow warranted that being relevant). At any rate, I learned a nice little tip once again on my own, with no real help from anyone.

I just can't stand the lack of motivation people here have towards sharing tips, or maybe they just don't really know much.
How many kick threads do we get and someone says "experiment and layer". Or, "set your compressor to these magic parameters". Yet I don't see a lot of real personalized technique on these forums from guys who have been doing this 10-15 years longer then I have. I don't mean to sound ungreatful, but with how much some of you appear to know, I always see the SAME pieces of advice being given, which are often so broad and general, that they almost mean nothing.

I know my speakers are far from perfect, but when I switched from crappy computer speakers to these current monitors, I didn't notice any massive change at all. I then got use to them over time, and even though I noticed a difference, it was STILL very minimal. Thats why I know when people say shit like "treat your room is will make a MASSIVE difference", they really just mean "its a small difference, but any improvement matters imo".
I just love how Kit made this all about my technique, and like I'm not blaming it, when the majority of my OP is ABOUT TECHNIQUE.

But obviously once again someone on this forum is just in a bad mood, but I'm the ignorant one.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN THIS. Every thread you start would be so much simpler if you just thought it out first before hitting enter. I can honestly say that is the case for 80% of your questions.

If you look carefully. I spent about an hour just speculating at different things he may have done to the kick, then listed them all out to help other people generate ideas. So I'm not really getting the "think it out" comment.

quote:

[ Don't get me wrong I think it;s commendable that you ask, and sometimes some good discussion comes of it, but so much is just uneccesary if you think about what you already know and then combine that with common sense.

Honestly this is prob one of the smartest things I can hear. The real problem is I look up to a lot of you people entirely too much, and I think some of you have some secret knowledge that I don't, and that I need to pry it out of you all on a daily basis.

But realistically speaking your right. If I just took what I already knew, and combined it with that common sense, I most likely would NOT need to make these threads at all. So you got that 100%. For now on, I'll stick to making threads that are more thought provoking and entertaining then actually trying to learn anything. I'm not being sarcastic but you're right. 85% of this forum most likely comes here for mere entertainment, and not to discuss anything really important (god forbid its another boring kick thread). As much as I'm on here I should have known that by now.

For now on I'll just post pics of people smacking their foreheads while I embark on useless tirades insulting random strangers. Seems to be what is most accepted here.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox

Your original post might have not mentioned your monitors, but in the end, despite all the good advice you were given about how to make such a kick, you wound up basically saying "Ah well, I don't stand a chance until I have better monitors, so I may as well just put prouction on hold until then because I won't be able to make anything worthwhile". I'm merely pointing out that this is bullshit.

Also, you might have avoided coming across as so utterly dumb if you phrased your questions more like "How do you make a good kick?" and then left it a more open ended question rather than saying "Why is THIS kick from my friend so good when mine are so shoddy Waaaaaaa!". That way, others might have gotten something out of the thread, rather than it all just being about robby and his production issues.

In regards to your last post; most people come here to learn things they don't already know. Most of the questions you ask can't be answered online, they require pure practice. There is no secret knowledge, just experience.

Anyway, I've sunk enough time into telling how not to be a dickhead, unsubscribing.

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