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-- Some times i have doubts about this whole DVS setup..
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Stick with dvs, the vinyl feel is not the same with cdjs

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Originally posted by DJ RANN nice tip - hadn't though about using the TDM like that. Great post stu - I feel the same but the only thing I'll add is that I found (and said it here many times) that laptop sets just don't cut it like CDJ or TT sets. I won't go in to the reasons again, but I stand by what I've written since the technology came up and I gave it a fair shake and I still prefer to see/hear a DJ set by a DJ not looking at a screen, one where the DJ enjoys a atctile relationship with the kit they're using. I'm sure some people disagree but everytime time I see the difference it just reaffirms my feelings about the subject. I still don't think laptops will completely take over and if anything the CDJ is still on the rise in terms of numbers as TT's are phaesed out - I see the obvious disadvantage of vinyl (getting tracks on viyl is near impossible these days) but apart from having to burn a (10cent ) CD the CDJ has little to no disadvantges compared to the laptop (danger of breaking a thousand dollars/euros/quid plus worth of computer, stability, hard drive failure, interface failure, software failure, etc.). With CDJ's the club just have to make sure they work and have a mixer hooked up and all the DJ has to do is bring a wallet of CD's (which a laptop DJ has to also do in case the kit freaks out etc).

I agree that most laptop DJs are boring. My theory on this is that focussing on a high-res screen like that stops you from being able to nod your head or really get into the music in the same way - you very very rarely see a laptop DJ having a rave around in the booth.

And I agree that you don't go to a club to see the DJ having a good time, but if you go and you see a DJ not look like he's having a good time, it can take a lot of atmosphere out but more importantly I think the lack of energy comes across in the tracks that DJ chooses and the way he mixes it.


So the laptop setups I've been playing around with are entirely designed to counter this dunno if I'll ever play in the club with it, at the moment I'm just trying to see what works, but I think the way I'm working will mean I get the benefit of laptop DJing without losing the energy... hopefully!

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I think it's because you don't know how many time this has been discussd on here that you think I'm off base, and you haven't been privy to all those discussions, hence why I said I didn't want to get in to it.

See dude there is the problem. It doesn't matter how many times something is discussed if the discussion involves flawed logic. I don't need to be privy to any discussion because all of the anti DVS arguments are the same.

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Let me preface those old quotes with: I've been mixing/djing for 15 years, got my first CDJ 10 years ago (the original CDJ 500 that was the size of a turntable), currently own CDJ800s and have seen all the fads come and go, so I'm not new to this but at the same time I'm a person that emobraces new technology (when I feel it's valid) and use friends DVS (serato) when we do house parties in tandem with decks (vinyl) and CDJs.

Ok so first of all you don't even own the current cdj standard (either 1000's or 2000's) so you have no ability to comment on the quality of them over a long period of time. Second of all you have used Serato which to my knowledge is an ancient system as far as dvs is concerned and they have not come even close to keeping up with Traktor. So far your argument would be valid...if it were 2005. But it's 2010 and all of the systems you just listed are archaic and essentially extinct. I thought you said you embraced new technology???

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Personally I think laptop sets (ableton or otherwise) just don;t stand up to CDJ's (or especially vinyl)

That sounds dangerously alike to a purist opinion. You list ableton as the main form of laptop set which couldn't be further from the current technology at present. And then you basically imply that nothing stands up to vinyl. Understandably this isn't a present day thread so I will cut you some slack as technology has advanced since but nonetheless, purist mentality for sure.

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About 2/3 years ago when the whole DVS thing exploded, I posted in various threads about how the use of the laptop detracted from the DJ'ing performance, and how I feel that from laptops sets that I've done and witnessed vs CDJ sets, the night, the music , the mixing (etc.) was so much better. Loads of people argued saying laptops don't detract from the performance and how there are so much more possibilities with laptop (blah blah blah) and now people seem to be saying the same thing.

Ok so I agree laptop sets can give off that feeling; ONLY if the dj allows it. They can do the same thing with cdj sets; some people are just really passive when they play. It has nothing to do with the equipment and everything to do with the personality of the person using it. This also comes across in their sets. Some people mix aggressively and some people mix really passively. This is my entire point. You're harping on things that have nothing to do with the setup and everything to do with the dj's personality (or lack there of). I know from experience I actually spend much longer looking at and setting up tracks on my cdjs. With Traktor I make sure the beat grid is set correctly; set my volume accordingly on the track I'm about to mix and then i'm mixing the new track in. I can also pull any track in my collection up in seconds. I can understand your argument if you like watching a djs ass as he digs through three crates trying to find the track he wants to play. On CDJS you're checking things multiple times because there is far more of a human element and much more room for error. It's much more difficult to find the track you want as you have to scroll numerically through tracks instead of going through a list where everything is already all laid out right in front of you. This isn't even including the multiple minutes spent digging through crates. In fact that summarized the advantages of DVS (especially Traktor because thats what I know best). Everything is all laid out in front of the dj. I don't think people realize how valuable the Traktor waveform is as well as the ability to scroll/search through an entire collection in seconds. This allows massively more technical sets and MORE TIME INTERACTING WITH THE CROWD. In the past there was the knock of stability issues. However like I said though; my cdj1000's have been to the shop 5 times in almost 2 years (having never been removed from my house) and I have never once had a crash using my laptop (which is an HP). Proof is in the pudding bro.

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Granted, they let you have a much larger library of tracks at your figertips and some of the features are nice but I have still never seen a laptop set that was better than even a mediocre CDJ ot Vinyl set.

I apologize for you must see some untalented djs. Inferior talent can not outproduce ANYTHING PERIOD.

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I've always noticed that gigs l've witnessed or done with a laptop (not out of choice) are sub par compared to cdj or vinyl sets.

Maybe because you're not familiar or prepared for the medium. There is a lot more preparation in a laptop set than there is with cdjs. Thus it also allows a superior product to be pumped out. I can't believe you'd ever even consider playing on a setup you weren't prepared to play on prior. That's just ludicrous. But then again maybe you do this strictly for fun. Me personally if something will damage my end product; it can gtfo. If that means I don't play I'd rather not play than be surprised and unprepared.

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There is something about a dj having to look at a computer screen that destroys the dj performance part of it and detracts from the feeling of the set, and again, therefore the performance. For the dj's that are incredibly passive when djing, it doesn't matter as much but is still noticeable. That staring at the screen just removes them from the crowd, and it shows.

Ok really starting to lose respect now. As a guy who frequently talks up Carl Cox (for good reason dude is amazing) this is fucking hilarious. A guy known for driving techno and you're bitching about dj performance???? It's supposed to be about the music; that IS the performance. People are supposed to be DANCING. If it were a perfect world a dj would never even be visible to the clubbers. This is not a circus and we are not paid actors. In fact many people I have seen have blown their reps (imo)because they try to act when if they just let the music speak for them they would be far better off. Like I've said numerous times though this throwing off the performance you speak of is based on DJ PERSONALITY; not the equipment. You yourself correctly mentioned that there are people who are passive when playing and vice versa. If you have any qualms at all it should be about boring dj's; not the systems they play on.

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Also, on another note, I WOULD NEVER just bring a laptop and DVS system for a gig - you always have to take CD's anyway in case there is a problem so why bother with a laptop in the first place. Yeah don't get me wrong, dvs have their benefits but even serato isn't stable 100% of the time and when you're getting paid to play you just can't take that risk IMO. The only system I've used intesively is serato and even that has gone down ocasionally. Combine that with the extra performance aspects of CD's and that's why I prefer (along with many others now it seems) tactile CD or vinyl djing.

It's very funny you say this because while I have much more fun playing on cdjs I've witnessed first hand that they are far less stable than Traktor. I'm planning on picking up cdj2000s soon but as it stands currently I never would plan on bringing cdjs to a gig. That would imply you don't trust your system. Like I said i've never had a crash.

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It's not about the "visual impact" at all, it's the fact that I feel and have witnessed that when a DJ that is looking at a screen, rather than just working the decks/mixer, they are not as connected to music or crowds as one who isn't. It's not about how they look to a crowd but how they interact with the music, and therefore how that music affects the crowd. That's all that matters as far as I'm concerned. It;s the fact that as a dj, you have to look at a screen, which completely disconnects you from the club, the crowd - everything else.

You've now lost all credibility with this statement. You realize that cdjs have SCREENS as well correct? You also realize that they are needed to be looked at much more than a laptop screen, correct? So wtf is your beef? Are you just a jealous purist or a confused moron? I think it's the first but arguments for both can be made after reading some of these quotes. If people love the music they are going to be connected with it the entire time. Me personally my head and body is vibing with the music pretty much the entire time I play; but I also don't play weak ass shit like some djs. There are tracks to play in clubs and there are other tracks to play for radio sets and such not heard in a club environment. Too many people don't understand the difference and this imo is where your beef SHOULD be aimed at; not at the means of the music going into the mixer.

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What I'm saying is, It's got nothing to do with how they look when using a laptop, it's that using a laptop detracts from their performance as a DJ and negatively affects the musical performance.

Quoted for hilarity. Please re-read this and realize how dumb you sound. A cdj is a medium; and a laptop is a medium. You look at both, so unless the person watching is a jaded purist as you come off; they're identical in that regard.

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I'm not slamming anyone who uses a DVS - sometimes it's useful and sounds great, but I'd prefer to play with CD's or vinyl anyday, and whenever I do it's a better performance. Something about that tactile relationship while DJing makes the mixing, the music and my connection to the music better. I'm just saying I've noticed this for a long time in other people and have even done blind tests - it's always the CDJ or Vinyl sets I prefer.

Now see I can respect this quote because you've stated your OPINION; instead of making claims. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

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I'll give you an exact example - everytime I've ever heard Carl Cox play, he plays so much better when he leaves the laptop out. I've got at least 5 points of references for this in 3 different countries/clubs. So maybe that's just one DJ that gives a better performance (not visually but musically), but again seeing a lot of DJ's over the years, the "hands on" sets are always better and as I speak to more people about this I get more people concurring.

You have no idea the circumstances/context in which he played on the laptop; or what he prefers and is more adept at. You also don't know WHICH dvs he was using. They are NOT created equally. Mixmeister doesn't equal Serato and Serato doesn't touch Traktor. Catch the point? If I went to go play on my Traktor setup as usual and they say nah you have to use Serato obviously this is going to effect my performance as I am not prepared. Thats a theoretical because if they ever told me that I'd pull out my cock and tell them to suck it and walk out of the club.

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I've seen it time and time again. That second or so looking at the screen removes the DJ from the crowd and that IMO, however small, seems to make a big difference in what they do and how they perform. Some of the life is gone. I can't say it any other way becuase I've seen it. With CDJ's/Truntables and a wallet, it's all tactile and hands on.

Only if you allow it to my friend. The only thing that this entire argument comes down to is psychology. You can't see/understand what a dj is doing in a laptop set while in a cdj set you can see them scrolling through tracks; cueing up their track and bringing it in. You know because of experience. If you had never used a cdj or a laptop (say you played live music only) you would be clueless to any difference; which proves my entire point and settles the argument. It's all about the psychology of this bs and people not giving other systems a fair shake. People in the industry pay far too much attention to technicality that makes them unable to enjoy the music. SAD!

As someone who has studied psychology profusely and use it in all of my music (both dj'ing and production) the mantras all the anti dvs people hold make me ROFFL.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 stuff

I can't be arsed to pick out all of the points I disagree with above, but just generally want to say I think you've missed his point and seem to just be arguing with every point for the sake of it.

Yes, a laptop is just another medium to play music. Yes, you can theoretically make a laptop set IDENTICAL to a CDJ set. But the point is that the way you work with a laptop just happens to encourage people to play sets in a way which ends up being more boring.


And re. the "you've never owned a 1000" thing - I've never owned a 1000 but I know them absolutely inside out, I know how long they last under heavy use, how often they go wrong and all the rest of it, so that's hardly something you can bring him up on. I'm still yet to be convinced that laptops are as reliable myself.

And I'm not against laptop DJing - I'm having a mix with a laptop right now in fact haha - but I think it's important to make sure you don't fall into a trap with it.

+1 to that mr cox

RANN made a very well thought out argument and your reply felt very defensive and a little personal without actually adressing the main point which is there appears to be something about a laptop that affects the way that people play. I can only speak from personal experience but having been a user of DVS for many years since the original release of Final Scratch I know that there is something in what RANN says.

For a long time I didnt have a laptop so if I wanted to use FS out Id have cart the desktop along so it didnt happen very often and I would notice a difference when playing on FS and when not. Whats interesting I think is that I couldnt explain it to you or put my finger on why there was a difference, but there was. I now use Traktor and I dont notice it nearly as much, but its still there. Now I imagine that the massive improvemnts in the way the software works are responsible for the reduction in this feeeling, but the fact that its still there obviously means they aint got it quite right yet.

I understand why people get defensive when the DVS system is attacked, you feel as if your ability is being brought into question, but I dont think thats the case. I know the medium shouldnt matter, but if its possible that there is a problem arising from our choice of medium then we should be trying to identify what it is and compensating for it, rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

I hope this makes sense, trying to type and watch rugby at the same time!

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 It's very funny you say this because while I have much more fun playing on cdjs I've witnessed first hand that they are far less stable than Traktor. I'm planning on picking up cdj2000s soon but as it stands currently I never would plan on bringing cdjs to a gig. That would imply you don't trust your system. Like I said i've never had a crash.

I find this a very funny attitude, relying solely on one just seems uneccesarily risky and slightly unprofessional.

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Originally posted by Stu Cox I can't be arsed to pick out all of the points I disagree with above, but just generally want to say I think you've missed his point and seem to just be arguing with every point for the sake of it.

I most definitely was not arguing his points for the sake of it. The ONLY reason I post anything on this site is because the industry as a whole and the thought processes it employs needs to change. That doesn't happen with just one person. There is a lot of misinformation and personal vendetta when people attack dvs and yes it definitely pisses me off.

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Yes, a laptop is just another medium to play music. Yes, you can theoretically make a laptop set IDENTICAL to a CDJ set. But the point is that the way you work with a laptop just happens to encourage people to play sets in a way which ends up being more boring.

The main point is that Rann doesn't realize the psychological aspects of all of this that he is consistently employing each time he sees a laptop set. He obv goes to clubs and watches the djs intensely. While I think that's the wrong reason to go to a show/concert; to each their own. You notice I was fine with everything that he listed as OPINION. He was trying to pass off all of that bs as fact which is wrong. If he would have listed more of it as opinion instead of acting like it was decided and proven by some theorem or something I wouldn't have been as offended. What medium someone uses is strictly opinion and whatever allows them to put out the best product possible should be ENCOURAGED.

Do you even understand the thought process behind your own statement you made? Of course software is going to encourage lame boring sets because a large percent of people (that don't use timecode) use it because it's easier. Because you can sync your beats. Naturally those fuckheads are going to bore the shit out of everyone live because they don't understand the process of what they are doing. If they don't understand the process then they certainly aren't going to be able to understand or use the benefits of the system.

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And re. the "you've never owned a 1000" thing - I've never owned a 1000 but I know them absolutely inside out, I know how long they last under heavy use, how often they go wrong and all the rest of it, so that's hardly something you can bring him up on. I'm still yet to be convinced that laptops are as reliable myself.

Again; missed my point. He said he stays on the edge of technology and then referred to Serato and Ableton as the industry leaders in dvs. It's fairly consensus these days that Traktor has blown past all other companies offering DVS systems. So his argument was debunked by the fact that he hasn't tried everything that he is bashing. He also listed zero legitimate reasons for why DVS aren't as good but made plenty of comments based on psychological factors and "experience".

The problem was his "experience" listening and not enjoying laptop sets is that he is missing factors such as how long the dj has used the system; if they are fully versed and comfortable with the differences it provides, and if they are just using the software or using a controller as well. All of these make a HUGE difference especially for a "DJ watcher" as I like to refer to them.

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Originally posted by djdk I know the medium shouldnt matter, but if its possible that there is a problem arising from our choice of medium then we should be trying to identify what it is and compensating for it, rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

The medium does NOT matter. If there is a problem yes it needs to be addressed I 100% agree. However the only problem I see is with the people using it and not the system itself. If you don't use a controller then yeah it looks fucking gay. To see a dj with a mouse or using the trackpad on stage is completely fucking lame! But then again I'm not going to think less of their set because of that. I'm there for the music; if he/she can mix it up great, WHO CARES! I seriously think most of you fail to understand that the mixer/mixing is 98% of dj'ing.

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I find this a very funny attitude, relying solely on one just seems uneccesarily risky and slightly unprofessional.

Like I said I have never had a single crash and have had 5 times where one of the cdjs has had to go in.

I can understand why you would say risky (as dvs history has been unstable to say the least); but slightly unprofessional? I'd love to hear why you think that?

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 The medium does NOT matter. If there is a problem yes it needs to be addressed I 100% agree. However the only problem I see is with the people using it and not the system itself.

We're agreeing with you on that. But we're just saying that there seems to be a lot of evidence that the system encourages the user to be a problem

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Originally posted by djdk quote: Originally posted by mfitterer1 It's very funny you say this because while I have much more fun playing on cdjs I've witnessed first hand that they are far less stable than Traktor. I'm planning on picking up cdj2000s soon but as it stands currently I never would plan on bringing cdjs to a gig. That would imply you don't trust your system. Like I said i've never had a crash. I find this a very funny attitude, relying solely on one just seems uneccesarily risky and slightly unprofessional.

Dave, bit of a silly comment isn't it - surely when you're DJing on CDJs yourself you only take CDs along? If you really trust your laptop enough, why bother taking CDs as well?

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Originally posted by Stu Cox We're agreeing with you on that. But we're just saying that there seems to be a lot of evidence that the system encourages the user to be a problem

Now THAT I can agree with. With all of the bells and whistles a dvs offers (especially Traktor) people can get complacent or lazy; and I think it's magnified because people expect more from a laptop dj (which I have no problem with).

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Originally posted by Stu Cox Dave, bit of a silly comment isn't it - surely when you're DJing on CDJs yourself you only take CDs along? If you really trust your laptop enough, why bother taking CDs as well?

a little over the top perhaps, i was watching the rugby and getting angry so apologies for being overly judgemental, but i think the essence of what i was getting at still stands

i dont think id ever go with just a laptop, i try not go only with cds. technology has a habit of fucking up, the more complicated the technology, the more likely it is to die on you. Consider that if a CDJ or 1210 goes belly up the venue may have a spare, they are NOT going to have a spare laptop with traktor installed ready for you to use should yours decided that, 5 minutes into the biggest gig you have ever gotten, its going to stop working. Or how about when the Audio 8 starts cutting out for a reason that you cant quite work out but you have to start playing music, having some CDs or vinyl as a back up means that you can carry on the party while you work out whats going on (this has happened to me).

Fair enough.

To be honest if I do start playing out with my laptop I'll be taking CDs as well for quite a while, but I haven't taken vinyl to a gig for years, particularly not as backup. As I see it there will be a point when people have enough faith to leave the CDs at home (as is generally the case with people now leaving the vinyl at home when playing on CDJs) - if some people are at that point before others, so be it.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's unprofessional... you don't take spare CDJs along! And loads of clubs don't have spares. If it does happen to fuck up, you deal with it there and then.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1

I can't be bothered to go through that post argue, I stand by what i worte and backed it up with concise observations from years of clubbing (since the mid 90's in london) as well as being a professional engineer at a major studio, and being a service engineer in about 3 dozen brands including pioneer, technics, vestax, sony, allen and heath, numark, etc. so trust me when i say i'm someone that embraces new technology.

I Feel, by what you posted, like you come off like a traktor fanboy that's had his baby insulted. I'm not trying to bait or insult you - I just think you completely missed the point by defending the medium, which i truly couldn't give a shit about. My whole point is that I ONLY care about the music which in the case of DJing, relaies so heavily on the performance and interaction.

My technical background is also why I have some perspective and well placed scepticism about new technology "improving" things. I've seen so many things touted as the new sliced bread only for it to be outdated and the flaws realized once the hype dies down. I'm "prepared for new mediums" as long the benefits, all things considered make a positive difference, and I have to say, in my experience, I don't see laptops making DJ performances better, just more convenient for DJ's and in the vast majority of cases, another tool to make life easier for a lazy DJ.

As for the not owning 1000's or 2000's, you're just showing lack of foresight and possibly some ignorance. I didn't buy them because I get to play on them at clubs and the 800's are so close in feel couldn't justify the extra $500 per deck. Working at a studio that has literally unlimited funds in terms of buying kit (and I'm talking equipment s most people will never ever get to even see in real life), also made me a bit of a miser when it come to buying kit for home use.


You'll find many people on here (Dj Woody as an example) who probably plays every week out on 1000's but owns 800s.

Anyway, all this aside, you're completely entitled to beleive that laptop sets are great.

I don't, and until you can come up with some proof that they are, to oppose my heavily researched observations that are not, I'll keep my opinion that staring at a screen detracts from the performance aspect of Djing and distracts the DJ from the crowd, meaning not as good music.

I couldn;t care if richie hawtin can play four choons at once while layer five FX over it or that Zabeila can use two EFX1000;s at once.

It still sounds like my mobile phone overdosing of digital meth.

As for cox, playing driving techno? Nver heard him do that. Every time I've heard him playing here in LA, he plays bouncy prog and house, last time I saw him pay ibiza, he played the warm up as prog then tech house for the later set.

in Toronto he played house both times I saw him and in London he mainly played Tech house or prog.

Finally, until laptop DJ's stop having to take CDs as a backup (as everyone in this thread has concurred with), you're not going to have an easy time convincing anyone, especially me, that laptop sets are more stable the CDJ sets.

Don't get me wrong, I think it has it's place, but it's a long way off (many years) replacing CDJ's as the reliabale and common standard.

We are both entitled to our opinion and the only reason I was upset by your post was that you were very adamant about making sure things were stated as facts (when they are clearly opinions).

I am not a Traktor fanboy although I do like what they are doing with the product. Stability aside (I had to do lots of mods and it only works on XP flawlessly for me) I see no benefits to cdjs and the performance aspect goes back to dj's personality.

I definitely did not mean to jump down your throat but this is something along with the hardware/softsynth argument that always gets me going. As I said I know what you do and respect your information and knowledge. I do think there is a good deal of personal bias in your statements which is fine; just please don't quote those as fact because it may set people that are on the fence the wrong way. This is my whole reasoning for involving myself in this thread/debate as much as I have. I would hate for someone not to try something solely because a lot of other djs talk shit about it. This happened to me when I was first getting into music and I want to stop it from happening to others so they can use whatever they are comfortable with.

You have to keep in mind the price points. Many people starting with dj'ing do not have the funds to spend 3500-4k on decks. I think the CDJ-2000's have closed much of the gap between software and cdjs but until I purchase those a few months down the road it'd be unfair to comment on if that has happened or not.

If someone were to buy Traktor, use the Audio 4/8 and a DJM-800 (Using as example because it's industry standard) you're looking at spending around 2500. Even if you were to buy cdj800's you're looking at 3k. If someone wanted to buy top of the line and get 1000's you're looking at 4500, and for 2000's 5k. There is no way even someone strictly against software mixing as you are; can say that it doesn't pack a better punch for the dollar.

I apologize if I upset you with my statements; I was heated. I'm not someone that goes back and retracts statements because at the time that's how I felt. I have no problems speaking my mind; even if I know it will offend others. I think now that both sides have been stated people can make their own opinions about the topic.

I think a dvs setup is actually beneficial in the situation described. Take for example having only one turntable working, in that case you can have serator on the instant doubles / play on load funtion and then play off one deck that way.

I have two complaints. Not about TT's, CDJ's, Serato, Traktor, Torq, or any of the shit. My opinion is use whatever you feel comfortable with. Don't move to another system just because everyone else is doing it. Like I've said before, I know a lot of DVS who cut it up, and I know a few who use strictly vinyl and cut it up.

Now back to my dislikes. I wish (and maybe the technology is there already) there was a way for all DVS's could work together in some fashion. My DJ partner uses Serato, and there are times I use Torq, and I really hate it when you have to strike your DVS to bring in another, and vice versa. If I'm using CDs/Vinyl only no big deal. That's why I have a four channel mixer. But it's the multiple DVS set ups. Only way I found it to work ok is if one of us goes with vinyl control and the other uses cd control.
It becomes a pain having to plug and unplug various interfaces.

My other dislike. I've been noticing that some DJ booths are getting smaller. Anyone else notice that. In other words, if you're a vinyl guy no place to put your crates. It seems that some clubs will only cater to DVS dj's.

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