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Originally posted by Clovis We want to increase and facilitate access to healthcare for people in this country, the fucking horror!! You can talk all the shit you want and pull any number of bullshit quotes from our joke of a political discourse in this country up, it doesn't change the bottom line. We need healthcare reform, whether or not half this country was brainwashed into thinking this is a communist trojan horse, or that they're gonna pull the plug on grandma, or this is part of Obama's Nazi agenda. The rest of the civilized world is doing just fine providing a basic level of care to ALL citizens.

Don't get testy Clovis. You and I both agree that: A) we need reform of the industry bigtime, and B) increasing access to healthcare for people is the right thing to do.

We just disagree on the form (and process) that this bill has taken. And, evidently you are ok with elected officials not representing their constituents.... which to me is even more foreboding.

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Originally posted by The17sss We just disagree on the form (and process) that this bill has taken.

How would you suggest the process was carried?

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Originally posted by wotyzoid How would you suggest the process was carried?

lol... good lord. I don't have time to rehash this conversation. It's been going on for a year.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN don't be sad champ, you're an awesome bloke til politics crops up in conversation.

Bahaha so true!
I like the guy but as soon as he starts talking anything political, I want to take a sledge hammer to my face and his.

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Originally posted by The17sss ... for the first time in U.S. history, major legislation was passed that undermined a vast majority of the people's wishes...

Show me some numbers. I'm not doubting you, I just want to make sure that you have hard data readily available to back up your claims.

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... those Americans on here that believe it's fine for the politicians that WE elect to not actually represent those who elected them...

Yeah, because everybody knowing that Obama wanted to revamp health care and then electing him into office means that the majority was misrepresented. Sure, I guess that seems logical enough... doesn't it?

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Originally posted by Fledz I want to take a sledge hammer to my face and his.

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Originally posted by The17sss lol... good lord. I don't have time to rehash this conversation. It's been going on for a year.

If you can't summarize something as a preferable way you would have liked the reform of heath care carried it comes off to me as you not having any thoughts of your own. Maybe that's why you are seen as a clueless hag when it comes to political discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Don't get testy Clovis. You and I both agree that: A) we need reform of the industry bigtime, and B) increasing access to healthcare for people is the right thing to do. We just disagree on the form (and process) that this bill has taken. And, evidently you are ok with elected officials not representing their constituents.... which to me is even more foreboding.

If you agreed, you would have fixed it already.

I am no expert on health care platforms, or what the situation is in the U.S. with this reform but...

Change has to start somewhere. People hate change and will do anything and everything to stop change from happening, even when it's really needed. With that being said, perhaps the reform is not perfect, and maybe it wont work as well as it could, but at least it is a step in the right direction. The U.S. desperately needs a health care reform and maybe this will be the catalyst that gets the U.S. to a place it needs to be. It's better than doing nothing at all and saying that change is too hard or whatever and staying with what doesn't work.

Personally, I am happy for the U.S. that at least in terms of better health care, the ball is now rolling.

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Originally posted by idoru Show me some numbers. I'm not doubting you, I just want to make sure that you have hard data readily available to back up your claims.

Just google Rasmussen, Gallup, PPP, etc. and it will show. There's no ambiguity.

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Yeah, because everybody knowing that Obama wanted to revamp health care and then electing him into office means that the majority was misrepresented. Sure, I guess that seems logical enough... doesn't it?

Well, yes... because in the beginning they did support him. But as the process went on, and more of the bill's content became available, buyer's remorse among the population began to set in; they didn't know "this" is what they were going to get. But even after support plummeted, they still marched on, defying the wishes of the people. This is the difference between Obama and Clinton; in 1994 when the GOP took over the House and Congress, he finally listened to his top advisor Dick Morris and realized he had to become more centrist or lose his 1996 re-election. This time, the Dems are willing to blow up their political careers to pass this. Crazy IMO, but they've been dreaming of this for 100 years; they can relax now because short term losses don't matter. From here on out, it's just going to be a matter of which party that happens to be in power can better manage it.

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Originally posted by wotyzoid If you can't summarize something as a preferable way you would have liked the reform of heath care carried it comes off to me as you not having any thoughts of your own. Maybe that's why you are seen as a clueless hag when it comes to political discussion.

STFU. Can you not read? I've been discussing this subject for a year on and off around here. You asked a general question that would take forever for me to re-write because there are plenty of specifics. Comb through the TA archives if you want to know.

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Originally posted by Clovis If you agreed, you would have fixed it already.

If I had the personal power to do so, I would man.

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Originally posted by The17sss Just google Rasmussen, Gallup, PPP, etc. and it will show. There's no ambiguity. Well, yes... because in the beginning they did support him. But as the process went on, and more of the bill's content became available, buyer's remorse among the population began to set it; they didn't know "this" is what they were going to get. But even after support plummeted, they still marched on, defying the wishes of the people. This is the difference between Obama and Clinton; in 1994 when the GOP took over the House and Congress, he finally listened to his top advisor Dick Morris and realized he had to become more centrist or lose his 1996 re-election. This time, the Dems are willing to blow up their political careers to pass this. Crazy IMO, but they've been dreaming of this for 100 years; they can relax now because short term losses don't matter. From here on out, it's just going to be a matter of which party that happens to be in power can better manage it.

Dick Morris is a motherfucking moron and Clinton listening to him may be the reason why it has taken us another 15 fucking years to fix something that should have been fixed 40 years ago.

The only reason it is political suicide in this country is because we have people like Glen Beck and the Tea Party going around screaming bloody murder and pretending this is the beginning of the end of this country.

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Originally posted by The17sss This time, the Dems are willing to blow up their political careers to pass this.

and I personally welcomed that. Can you imagine a Rep. do that for the sake of the American people?!?!


you righties might want to learn a thing or two.

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Originally posted by DjWhooCares and I personally welcomed that. Can you imagine a Rep. do that for the sake of the American people?!?! you righties might want to learn a thing or two.

So, then you support abolishing our country as a representative republic? Or, just when the Democrats are in power. I shudder to think how Democrats would react if the Republicans used this kind of sweeping power.

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Originally posted by Clovis Dick Morris is a motherfucking moron and Clinton listening to him may be the reason why it has taken us another 15 fucking years to fix something that should have been fixed 40 years ago. The only reason it is political suicide in this country is because we have people like Glen Beck and the Tea Party going around screaming bloody murder and pretending this is the beginning of the end of this country.

lol... I don't know man, Dick got Clinton elected again so I'm sure Billy-Jeff doesn't think he's too much of a moron.

It's not political suicide because of Beck or Tea Partiers... it's simply because the people are not being listened to by government, and are sick of it. They are elected to serve the people, not to rule.

Imo it says a lot about them, willing to put their morals above their jobs

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Originally posted by Lews Imo it says a lot about them, willing to put their morals above their jobs

What makes them the stalwart of moral tutelage, over the people they are supposed to represent? Are we to think politicians know what's best for us by virtue of being politicians?

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Originally posted by The17sss STFU. Can you not read? I've been discussing this subject for a year on and off around here. You asked a general question that would take forever for me to re-write because there are plenty of specifics. Comb through the TA archives if you want to know.

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Originally posted by The17sss History was indeed made today... for the first time in U.S. history, major legislation was passed that undermined a vast majority of the people's wishes. 234 years as a representative republic is over- and I'm not being melodramatic; those Americans on here that believe it's fine for the politicians that WE elect to not actually represent those who elected them... well, you know the rest.

By your train of thought, if the vast majority of the people they represent wanted to legalize public stoning as an alternative to monetary fines for misdemeanors then that is what they should legislate.

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Originally posted by The17sss What makes them the stalwart of moral tutelage, over the people they are supposed to represent? Are we to think politicians know what's best for us by virtue of being politicians?

What makes the people they represent?

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Originally posted by Lews What makes the people they represent?

It doesn't... I'm just making the point that elected officials are supposed to represent the people who elect them. Once they start deciding they know better than the people, and vote how THEY see fit, damn their constituents, then they undercut the very foundation of what we're about.

see you're a republican, so i'm expecting you to cry foul.
We won this battle, but we have not won the war.

...now, if a republican ever has a good piece of legislation but is being held back by dems, id march right next to him to try and get that passed.

So please don't distort what I was trying to say.

lol

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Originally posted by The17sss It doesn't... I'm just making the point that elected officials are supposed to represent the people who elect them. Once they start deciding they know better than the people, and vote how THEY see fit, damn their constituents, then they undercut the very foundation of what we're about.

Yes, because everyone is always represented exactly as they want by the government. When the fuck has this ever been the case or mattered to you before?

We get to chose a side to make decisions, thats the only representation any of us TRULY has. You don't like it, don't vote for them again.

Also:

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"Today is the death of freedom as a cause for celebration," Rep. Marsha Blackburn just said as she opened the House Republicans' argument against the health-care bill. Her stem-winder was quick and clean. This bill, she argued, will make Americas less free. There is a tendency to think this sort of inane hyperbole an innovation of our polarized age. But it isn't. When Medicare was being considered, the American Medical Association hired Ronald Reagan to record a record housewives could play for their friends. It was called Operation: Coffee Cup, and you can listen to it in the clip atop this post, or read the text here. Reagan was a more graceful speaker than Blackburn, but his point was much the same. Kill the bill. "If you don�t do this and if I don�t do it," he said, "one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children�s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.� Well, the bill passed. And moments ago, Rep. Paul Ryan was on the floor of the House, bellowing against Democrats who would dare propose "across-the-board cuts to Medicare." This is breathless opportunism from Ryan -- he has proposed far deeper across-the-board cuts to Medicare, and is making arguments against the Democrats' bill that would be far more potent and accurate if aimed at his own -- but leave that aside for a moment. The GOP's embrace of the program that Ronald Reagan fought, and that Newt Gingrich sought to let "whither on the vine," is based on the lived experience seniors have had with the bill: It has made them more, rather than less, free. Blackburn's introduction aside, people do not "celebrate" the freedom to not be able to afford lifesaving medical care. They don't want the freedom to weigh whether to pay rent or take their feverish child to the emergency room. They don't like the freedom to lose their job and then be told by insurers that they're ineligible for coverage because they were born with a heart arrhythmia. When faced with the passage of programs that would deliver people from these awful circumstances, the Republicans adopt a very narrow and cruel definition of the word "freedom." But when faced with the existence of programs like Medicare, and the recognition that their constituents depend on those programs to live lives free of unnecessary fear and illness, they abandon their earlier beliefs, forget their dire warnings and, when convenient, defend these government protections aggressively. There's nothing much to be done about that. It is, after all, a free country. But Americans should feel free to ignore these discredited hysterics. By Ezra Klein | March 21, 2010; 3:02 PM ET

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