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-- My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)
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did u buy 40 quarter pounders a day when macdonalds first arrived?

Are you certain - truly certain - that this is because people aren't buying their music?

Or, could it possibly be because (a) the market has become saturated, and (b) the scene itself is simply shrinking as the scenesters grow older?

The cash flow is naturally going to dwindle when you're suddenly competing against 38,214 "me-too" labels while the customer base has shrunk by 50%.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut (a) the market has become saturated

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Are you certain - truly certain - that this is because people aren't buying their music? Or, could it possibly be because (a) the market has become saturated, and (b) the scene itself is simply shrinking as the scenesters grow older? The cash flow is naturally going to dwindle when you're suddenly competing against 38,214 "me-too" labels while the customer base has shrunk by 50%.

Saturation was already discussed, and makes almost no sense at all. Its almost as bad as the "piracy hurts teh salez" lie.

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Originally posted by orTof�nChiLd after reading this i concur, analogue is better than digital

Unless you use analogue saturation VST's.

Yeah... And sorry, Steven. You and I are on the same page, a bit, but I'm pretty much giving my shit away. I doubt, highly, that I'm lowering scarcity of the top-notch, quality beats out there by offering free, full down-loads of my music, but to say that it's not the economy seems dubious.

For starters, I have been pretty unemployed for the past three years. I won't get into the details but I will say that I've been on several job interviews; have been told, outright, that my resume' over-qualifies me for the part-time, minimum wage jobs to which I have been reduced to applying for - even with the three-year gap in my employment history (although I suspect that does discourage being heaped with the yes pile). In short, even though I still apply for the jobs which I know, full-well, I am capable of, I'm also applying for jobs I've done years ago - stuff that I absolutely swore I would never do, again. And still - nothing.

What that means for me is that I don't have the funds to purchase equipment - even software - that would make my work as a producer easier and also fundamentally better. It might be a poor workman who blames his tools, but let me tell you that, having upgraded from Project 5 to Sonar, has been like turning on a light in the area of quality, in-so-far as music production is concerned. Having upgraded my computer and DAW have shaved what must have been hours off of my work-flow and has eliminated many of the steps I used to have to take in order to obtain the quality I thought should be offered. My current upgrade, notwithstanding, the difference between what I can do, right now, and what I'd like to be able to do has a lot to do with procuring more hardware to include a computer strictly dedicated as a DAW - more robust and expensive than this cross-trainer I'm currently using.

I am far from the arrogant American Idol contestant vainly attempting to tell Simon Cowel (prospected label owners, distributors, or the general public for that matter) that, I am the next Paul van Dyke, and he is making a serious mistake for not supporting me. Fact is that I take risks in adopting the style I've adopted; that even without my unflinching preference for break-beat, I tend to be somewhat more unorthodox than most producers, and that it's been difficult bringing it to a receptive market, all things considered. There are also mistakes, I'm sure I'm making (both in marketing and in music), that unaddressed hinder the quality of material I make available - even considering my meager kit.

All told, however, I'm very much the self-contained operation. When I'm not working on music, I'm working on graphics for album covers or trying to figure out how to develop my currently appalling face-book page (and, of course, filling out applications and doing job-interviews for part-time post-renter, apartment cleaning and gas-station-attendant - among the jobs I have applied for the week before last). I have listened to several reports by NPR's On the Media that music industry is suck and then heard just as many reviews of music on NPR, among other media, which were absolutely glowing about music I (like to think I) could have done better, using Project 5 and my old Pentium 4 computer. It is irksome when Rolling Stone Magazine refers to a face-book page where some ass-hole's player is chock full of shit it would take me ten minutes, from start to finish, to make - and better than that ass-hole did.

This must be the second thread, this week, where someone has posted a complaint from the industry perspective, griping about the state of things. It's either a lack of talent or a lack of funds or a lack of something and, while I find several areas of my life lacking, I also don't complain about them and can easily realize that about 90% of it is within my dominion to do something about.

I hear a lot about unemployed people who just do nothing, at all, because they have given up. They do nothing about their situation, because they have nothing they think they can do. I am not that man. Pretty much every waking hour, I am up to something and I am still squirming financially - but at least I don't complain about it.

You complain about the industry being in dire shape, but I'll submit, just by virtue of the Rolling Stone article pointing to a sub-par producer, that those at the reigns of the industry aren't exactly doing all the right things. Never-minding poor, little, old me, there are people here, posting on this board and in this thread, no less, who should have easily been the subject(s) of that article - and yet those connections aren't being made.

If you want to know the reasons for your troubles, I'll submit my opinion that they are poor taste in conjunction with an acceptable level of mediocrity. Scott Hardkiss, even though I don't blame you, specifically, is an excellent example of that. Assholes like him don't exactly raise the bar for the rest of us. Now, I haven't heard you spin and I haven't heard your productions, but you're in here, complaining about a sorry state of affairs.

It's a competition and I freely admit that I am, somewhat humbly, at the bottom of the food chain. That said, I have no schadenfreude for you at the top, middle, or wherever you are, even though you seem to be bleating about your revenue projections and there's blood in the water. I also don't really care, lest you turn yourself into the hiring manager I've been looking for, that you succeed.

What's safe to say is that I think that label owners, in some measure, are part of the problem. Another part of the problem is that, while it takes a monumental effort to make a really good song, it takes a very minimal effort to make music which is as disposable as it is danceable to by the club goers who drink themselves imbecilic, every weekend.

I'll submit that I'm a little ticked off to find you bitching in this forum when I try pretty hard at what I do and don't. I'm not saying that you don't try hard, either. Luck is the residue of effort, after-all. But please, don't advertise that you're part of the problem you've been profiting off of for quite a while and then, as things seem to be heading south, come and bitch about the net result.

http://www.beatportal.com/feed/item...eatport-mobile/

Looks like EDM sales are going to get a nice bump. Put this in the absolute growth pile that keeps rising.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Saturation was already discussed, and makes almost no sense at all. Its actually worse than the "piracy hurts teh salez" lie.

If by "discussed" you mean your claim to the effect of "sure, there are a lot of labels/producers but most of them suck", then I would say that (a) you have no facts to support your claim, and (b) it's ultimately a red herring anyway because the consumers need to know the difference.

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Originally posted by DigiNut If by "discussed" you mean your claim to the effect of "sure, there are a lot of labels/producers but most of them suck", then I would say that (a) you have no facts to support your claim, and (b) it's ultimately a red herring anyway because the consumers need to know the difference.

...I dont think I said something so vague.

A)Are you sure you read what I said about saturation in my chef analogy?
B)Did you understand what was said about saturation?
C)Make a decent economic impact case for 'saturation' in relation to EDM and factors involved around EDM and its consumers.

How does joe blow label affect the sales of Planet E? IF it does at all, to what amount? How does 7000th joe blow label affect the sales of Cocoon?

I'll do C for you, a buncha labels sitting on a server dont really saturate the market, they just hold up easily skippable and forgetable space. Labels and Artists become big enough brands that the consumer...who buys the most music follows those labels and brands, due to their quality of product and marketing. 70,000 shit labels wont dip into those sales. But i'd love to hear how saturation affects digital distribution of good labels + music, and somehow changes the psychology and needs of the consumer.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 I'll do C for you, a buncha labels sitting on a server dont really saturate the market, they just hold up easily skippable and forgetable space. Labels and Artists become big enough brands that the consumer...who buys the most music follows those labels and brands, due to their quality of product and marketing. 70,000 shit labels wont dip into those sales. But i'd love to hear how saturation affects digital distribution of good labels + music, and somehow changes the psychology and needs of the consumer.

Again, where's your evidence for this claim? Your assumption seems to be predicated on some sort of loyalty concept, but DJs and listeners in this scene are fleeting.

If I'm standing in front of a supermarket shelf looking for, I don't know, breakfast cereal, and I've never bought any before, or maybe I've only ever bought one or two different kinds before, how do I choose one of the 300 boxes sitting in front of me? The answer is: Randomly.

Simply saying these things that you say does not make them true. In virtually every market, a surfeit of supply hurts average profitability, irrespective of differences in quality or even cost (although the smaller the difference, the more the effect is magnified, obviously). Consumers have a limited spending pool, and when you bombard them with choices, it will eventually erode revenue for the big guys.

It's the reason why big suppliers always like to negotiate long-term, high-volume, exclusive or semi-exclusive contracts with distributors and retailers; they don't want their products to be on the shelf with 50 other versions of the same thing. The economics of big business are broken with digital distribution because anybody can get their wares onto the shelf.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Stephenwiley...you see that? Can you take your cheap credibilty and lacking knowledge about EDM industry, and dunk it into a recycle bin. And Sonic, your right there are more chefs in the kitchen now, but there are still only a select group of good chefs...and people still want to eat the best food they can for their money. Why would they buy food made by the shit chefs when they can buy the best food for the same price from the best chefs? So those good chefs still make great food and in turn great sales, even though there are many more chefs in the kitchen. There is exactly NO reason for sales to stretch like you say they stretch. Bad product gets ignored no matter how many chefs are in the kitchen, because the price margin between good music and bad music, is very minimal, so the best product put out by the best makers (label+artist) should and will keep selling. While you're theory is reasonable, it does not account for real world results when there are more choices. There are dozens of shoe makers, most people just buy from 2 or 3 shoe companies, because those 2 or 3 put out the best product and best marketing. The lesser companies dont. Sames goes for EDM, labels run by StephenWiley dont sell because...they're in NO position to. The best indie labels, with the best product, result in the bigggest following. Like I said before, EDM industry is like comic books, people become religous fans of artists or labels and buy their product when its available. The absolute idea that EDM does not sell, is absolute propaganda.

You really do have no clue :/ Always funny to see somebody with such a strong opinion who knows nothing about what they're speaking of. Perhaps you should try talking to somebody who actually sells dance music (artist or label owner), that is, if you know anyone who does.


Continue.

quote:

Originally posted by owien i think story teller is right people want more bang for their buck and this meens writing and making better tunes.

More bang for the buck?

Were you around when you had to buy vinyl and new needles on the regular?

Being a DJ used to actually mean something (Hard to believe, I know)

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Are you certain - truly certain - that this is because people aren't buying their music? Or, could it possibly be because (a) the market has become saturated, and (b) the scene itself is simply shrinking as the scenesters grow older? The cash flow is naturally going to dwindle when you're suddenly competing against 38,214 "me-too" labels while the customer base has shrunk by 50%.

Yes, I'm certain. The reason as to why is debatable, but it doesn't change the fact that less and less money is being generated by EDM. And that ISN'T debatable. Not only is volume lower, but the mediums in which music used to sell (vinyl, cd) yielded a much larger profit for everybody involved.

Am I the only person who remembers how much $ was paid for the rights to Iio's "Rapture"? For those of you who actually have a brain you know there is no way another EDM track will ever top that. Won't even come close. I could go on all day with examples. Deadmouse has sold a little over 100,000 tunes on Beatport. I can name you 1 CD from 2001 that has sold over 500,000 copies in the United States alone.

Kismet7, you were saying?

The amount of money is probably less in the EDM scene, but also a lot more spread.

I think saturation is definately a factor. It hard to rise to the top when you get buried under the pile of great tunes and mediocre tunes. I think the longer you crank out good tunes, the further you rise up in the pile. I would hope that's the case.

Another thing about EDM, who is actually buying the tracks? I would say it's mostly DJs, and a portion (I bet a good portion) of them download tracks illegally. Why do EDM fans need to buy music? There are endless amounts of free DJ sets on the net. For the most part, no one gets any royalties from DJ sets. Perhaps fans buy compilation CD's, but I wouldn't know.

I think the digital explosion, and the death of vinyl are huge factors for the loss of income. Who can deny that? The digital explosion is also the greatest thing that ever happened to music. I'm convinced that's it's very hard, or impossible, to make a living producing EDM alone. You won't make anything more than a little beer money. You have to DJ if you want to make even a part time living from EDM. Use your productions to promote your DJ gigs. Untill things change, it's a hobby. Keep your day job.

Live acts are where the money is now days, in all genres of music. I'm too reclusive to do a live act or DJ, so I'll just stick to my hobby and hope I get a little beer money now and then I'm hoping that one day my EDM production experience will lead to greater things, media production work, publishing deals.

Don't shit on anyone that wants to make a living from music. It isn't about being "money hungry". It's about wanting to live your dreams. Those who make a living from music can devote all their time to it, and the quality of the music goes way up. Stop paying musicians, see how shitty the music gets.

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Yes, I'm certain. The reason as to why is debatable, but it doesn't change the fact that less and less money is being generated by EDM. And that ISN'T debatable. Not only is volume lower, but the mediums in which music used to sell (vinyl, cd) yielded a much larger profit for everybody involved.

Colour me unconvinced. iTunes sales have been growing exponentially. I couldn't find a similar chart for Beatport, but I have a strong suspicion that it would look at least similar.

It's interesting to see the two extremes of this debate - on the one hand, it must be due to people stealing music. On the other, it must be that only the crap labels don't make enough money. In reality, it's not so black-and-white. Consumer appetites and total sales are higher than ever, but competition is also fiercer than ever and electronic music especially is becoming a lot more diverse (creating deeper genre divides).

There's a lot of demand out there, but you're competing with 50,000 other suppliers; and unfortunately, even if they suck and you don't, they're still going to take away some of your business, because their operating margin is virtually nil. They can hold on forever without closing shop even if they only get a tiny trickle of customers.

These are the people you should be blaming. Not the listeners, not your current and future customers.

There will always be good music, there will always be good club nights, there will always be good labels, there will always be quality producers around, there will always be something new and fresh, and there will certainly always be big money in it for those who can find it.
Ever heard the term "the cream rises to the top"? Sure, it may not be your perfect type of cream but there's certainly no need for all the doom and gloom that exists in certain sections of the EDM community.
Boo hoo, so you missed the golden ages. Are you going to cry about it or do something about it?
There's plenty of people that are disappointed that they missed the golden age of tourism back in the 70s and 80s but you don't see most of the having a whinge about it.

Life goes on. Those who have a positive outlook on life and a keen eye for business will always get ahead in life and that includes with EDM, whether its producing, DJing, running a label etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 The biggest problem EDM faces is Digital Distributors/Retailers stealing sales (aided by soulless shills ; )...from artists and labels...this is the single biggest problem.

Good point. How do labels know if Beatport(for example) is telling them the truth about how many times a certain song was purchased? If Beatport sends a check to a label for 50 tracks allegedly purchased how do we know it wasn't really 500? Is there any way for labels to audit these Digital Distributors/Retailers?

For all we know producing EDM could be WAAAY more lucrative than we think...

This shall henceforth be known as the thread of teh long post. Carry on.

PS
tl;dr.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips This shall henceforth be known as the thread of teh long post. Carry on. PS tl;dr.

And you henceforth shall be known as teh person who smokes too much crack. Carry on.

ps.
wxyz

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Again, where's your evidence for this claim? Your assumption seems to be predicated on some sort of loyalty concept, but DJs and listeners in this scene are fleeting. If I'm standing in front of a supermarket shelf looking for, I don't know, breakfast cereal, and I've never bought any before, or maybe I've only ever bought one or two different kinds before, how do I choose one of the 300 boxes sitting in front of me? The answer is: Randomly. Simply saying these things that you say does not make them true. In virtually every market, a surfeit of supply hurts average profitability, irrespective of differences in quality or even cost (although the smaller the difference, the more the effect is magnified, obviously). Consumers have a limited spending pool, and when you bombard them with choices, it will eventually erode revenue for the big guys. It's the reason why big suppliers always like to negotiate long-term, high-volume, exclusive or semi-exclusive contracts with distributors and retailers; they don't want their products to be on the shelf with 50 other versions of the same thing. The economics of big business are broken with digital distribution because anybody can get their wares onto the shelf.

This does not answer the question, nor does it explain why 'saturation' in EDM industry affects digital sales to the amount you think it does. So give that another shot on explaining how 'saturation' would affect the sales of good product and limit the interest of the listener with good taste from buying that good product from the labels that put out good product, amongst the sea of those that dont.

And basically you're saying people who typically buy EDM music online, buy it randomly. Music is not a random choice, its a conscious choice. And is that your best case for saturation? People buy music randomly, and because of many choices, saturation takes its toll? lol

And nope no no...people are fleeting from other genres towards EDM, step outside.

You guys are mostly off base here. Kismet is right in that more people are buying edm. What Palm said is also 100% correct. That money has been diluted between probably 5-10k artists where as before it was closer to 500-1k. Obviously this dilutes everyones market share; especially when they play and sell the same shit or worse that everyone else is.

This is where Storytellers comment comes in. With the above mentioned climate most everybody is going after it the wrong way. Less songs more impact per song is the only way to succeed. Each artist will continue to get less and less listens and so those become more and more important.

Basically people need to start WRITING MUSIC again instead of engineering tracks. Bring something unique. Have some business sense. Know your rights. Me personally because I make enough money from my regular job I am keeping all of my content to myself. It's not worth it to sell it at present. Keeping them to myself will lose me some money right up front because I could be making very solid money releasing tracks right now. But when I bust 30 out at once all of the same high quality product; I will be garnering many life long listeners/buyers.


My label is in final development right now. It also will be doing things differently. I'll give a little heads up, we will be paying frequent advances and pay structures will be decided based on the quality of the track/release package. Artist will be getting min of 60%. Thus I will only be taking top flight product and artists. Keeping the label full of a small elite stable/catalogue. Release medium will make pirating improbable if not impossible.

Its all about making sacrifices and having a solid business plan. In any facet of the industry.

People need to realize for those 8 dollars a month they're making they are losing all of their control; rights, and things that put them ahead of others. The top is really nowhere near as hard to reach as people give it credit for being

Online music sales are growing. No doubt about it. It seems though as I'm the only one that actually thinks the labels that sell little are responsible for it themselves. Low quality releases, lack of originality, lack of promotion and/or label profiling and most of all lack of effort/investment (time and moneywise).

Lack of knowledge basically.

Seperate yourself from the bunch. Build your own identity, be more than just a label with a name that puts out music. For some it's enough to put out great music (unreleased digital would be a good example for instance), but for most it isn't.

basicly, it seems people dont know shit around here. one has the wilder statement than the other. whining, complaining, argueing, without doing anything about it, that shit belongs to facebook (why i fucking canceled my facebook, worst thing i see is people complaining about their little shit problems). whats the fucking problem? if u dont earn enough on music its because u probably suck at what u do (producing+promotion) and you should do something else. i dont earn shit, but i dont complain, its my own fault not making better stuff and not promoting myself, not fucking piracy or digital era or anything. you people suck, just fucking make music and promote it, let the rest handle itself. oh and dont sign dogdy contracts lol.

edit: i forgot to say that some people really dont care about the money, its about just making music because its fun (and therapeutic ). if ur into it for the money then fuck off. basicly.

quote:

Originally posted by user19503 basicly, it seems people dont know shit around here. one has the wilder statement than the other. whining, complaining, argueing, without doing anything about it, that shit belongs to facebook (why i fucking canceled my facebook, worst thing i see is people complaining about their little shit problems). whats the fucking problem? if u dont earn enough on music its because u probably suck at what u do (producing+promotion) and you should do something else. i dont earn shit, but i dont complain, its my own fault not making better stuff and not promoting myself, not fucking piracy or digital era or anything. you people suck, just fucking make music and promote it, let the rest handle itself. oh and dont sign dogdy contracts lol.

QFT

dont forget my edit, its the most important line!
or where u QTFing me so i couldnt edit lol.

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