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Originally posted by Mad for Brad it was about 2 and a half years ago for me so my entry into the industry was quite recent. Not much has changed. You've just heard from 2 people that work in these environments. We aren't lying to you. We aren't trying to discourage you. it is just the way it is. I don't know what else I can say. Everything I say is concerning these days as in today. And tomorrow. And probably next week. Were do you get this overarching idea that things work differently ? Do you realize what the placement percentage for these schools are ? Pretty much approaching the asymptote. Last time I checked, I am living in 2010. I'm pretty sure djRann is also living in the same year but until I confirm the type of car he drives, I can't rule out he is a time traveller.

you're one case. there are more modern cases for what i'm suggesting than the disney fairytale you are selling. and it makes no logical sense for person A who just has drive + nice smile to get a job in a studio over person B who has drive + nice smile + recording degree.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Its no fucking shit that if you put dog like slave like work into something, you will eventually get some sort of good result. But these days, people are getting Recording School degrees + doing that. So just doing the "put your all into it" is a thing of the past, that might have worked for you guys, but its out of touch thinking in modern times. And maybe you guys should think forward instead of thinking about the past, of how you did it. Space has gone down, competition and interest in being part of a studio has gone up, and in turn credentials are needed on top of that slave work. Stop misleading people that if they become a great door stop they will get a studio gig, you need more than that.

You: an industry outsider who wants in.

Them: Inside the industry, currently, telling you how to get in.

Again, you're either an idiot or a troll.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker You: an industry outsider who wants in. Them: Inside the industry, currently, telling you how to get in. Again, you're either an idiot or a troll.

You : poor reasoning / professional forum troll

It is rat

like I said before, many engineers will actually hold your little 2 year degree against you. Knowledge counts , your degree doesn't. And while you are getting a degree, individual A is interning learning how things really work and is already ahead by 2 years. Learning is not a waste of time but you need to understand those degrees , except what you might learn, do not yield much in terms of work. It is rather ironic that you called me someone that bangs his head on a wall when here you are ignoring all the advice assuming you know how it works. You are the one banging your head and the wall is made of MadForBrad abs!!! solid rock.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad like I said before, many engineers will actually hold your little 2 year degree against you. Knowledge counts , your degree doesn't. And while you are getting a degree, individual A is interning learning how things really work and is already ahead by 2 years. Learning is not a waste of time but you need to understand those degrees , except what you might learn, do not yield much in terms of work.

What your delusions are holding you back from realizing is we are talking about GREEN PEAS that want a START in the industry. How is individual A ahead of B when he is starting with nothing besides Drive? You are adding experience to individual A when there should be no experience or knowledge added. Because we are talking about how things get started, not an experienced engineer finding a job, thats not even what the discussion was about. Its about how things get started...which is why you guys are failing at your argument.

And when were talking about starting, there are many with recording degrees at the starting gate looking for gigs (ie there are more without jobs than with jobs), in competition with green peas that are looking for positions that would have to start from scratch. Why do forum users often suck at simple logic?

what i am saying is that you learn more interning than you do at school. Yes you need to have knowledge but you can always do homework read and ask questions when appropriate. Drive and attitude really is what they are looking for. I'm just trying to save you money man.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad what i am saying is that you learn more interning than you do at school. Yes you need to have knowledge but that isn't stuff you can do homework on and read about. Drive and attitude really is what they are looking for.

Right...but whose going to give you the opportunity to intern in the first place? When there is a kid that shows up after you with a nice recording school education? With same drive and same smile you have. You're talking about small probability and poor rationale and judgement on the part of the studio owner to choose person A over person B. This is like 9th grade logic stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 What your delusions are holding you back from realizing is we are talking about GREEN PEAS that want a START in the industry. How is individual A ahead of B when he is starting with nothing besides Drive? You are adding experience to individual A when there should be no experience or knowledge added. Because we are talking about how things get started, not an experienced engineer finding a job, thats not even what the discussion was about. Its about how things get started...which is why you guys are failing at your argument. And when were talking about starting, there are many with recording degrees at the starting gate looking for gigs (ie there are more without jobs than with jobs), in competition with green peas that are looking for positions that would have to start from scratch. Why do forum users often suck at simple logic?

They're failing because they believe you to be reasonable and are using logical argument to convince you; not because they're wrong about the topic.

they don't care about the degree. It says absolutely nothing regarding what you know. They aren't hiring you to do anything audio related when you start. Anyone can talk themselves up to be the best engineer on the planet so yes, they do make decisions that often come down to how you compose yourself. They will find out soon enough whether you know anything.

Anyways, i've said my bit. Do what you must.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad they don't care about the degree. It says absolutely nothing regarding what you know. They aren't hiring you to do anything audio related when you start. Anyone can talk themselves up to be the best engineer on the planet so yes, they do make decisions that often come down to how you compose yourself. They will find out soon enough whether you know anything.

Yes...a recording degree student that shows his skills during interview...will be overlooked for a green pea, because green pea will wave his magic wand, little mermaid coffee mugs will fill up with coffee, and have the studio mary poppin in no time. And i'm doneee : )

how will a recording degree show your tea pouring technique ? They will probably go with the green pea because your attitude stinks. I don't know why I having this polemic discussion but you are quite the troll.

Let me put it this way. They assume everyone is talented and everyone starts off as a runner. Some people seem to shine and other don't. That is how they chose. Your paper is absolutely meaningless. They aren't looking for engineers. They are looking for interns to do menial tasks. You do that to open the door. The rest well you know what I mean.

Maybe even intern at a small studio that will gladly accept your help and give you more berth and possibly a reference.

I think perhaps you should contact some of the engineers offer to treat them to a nice steak dinner in exchange for some questions regarding their career. Maybe once you've heard it enough times, it will sink in. The question has probably been asked on gearslutz and they will all say the same thing but will make it sound even more demeaning.

From what you describe, it seems like the attitude of the hiring engineer might be something like, "Oh, he has a recording degree, so I bet he has a sense of entitlement about what kind of jobs are appropriate for him and will turn up his nose at menial stuff." Does that sound accurate?

Just wondering, because I've noticed that some people also have that attitude about hiring college graduates for "low level" jobs in general.

[Edit to add that I am speaking entirely from an industry outsider perspective.]

pretty much

They didn't go to school and they sort of view those that did with contempt. These sort of irrationalities are in every industry, For example, when my sister was doing her residency as a doctor, they made her work insane hours because the doctors before worked insane hours and it is just a sort of psychological projection. I had to go thru the shit so everyone else has to.

I mean it all depends. If you start the interview by saying, I've graduated from my 9 month degree and i'm ready to engineer. They will just roll their eyes. It just isn't something you brag about. They aren't so callous to the point of being complete assholes but you have to understand that pretty much all the engineers had to pay their dues and any little kid with a degree and sense of entitlement will really piss them off. Especially considering the fact that they probably haven't slept well in the last month and are on lots and lots of coffee. The senior engineers can get very cranky very quick. They all pretty much wish things were like they were 20 years ago and have this inherent dislike for the ITB reason producer that thinks he is an engineer.

im surprised you're feeding the troll that is kismet. put him on ignore. but hey, atleast you're giving a lot of info, cheers big industry mans.

Kisemet - I'm sorry but you're talking out of your arse and not from a place of knowledge about this.

I only got my studio job two years ago so my experience is very valid and not some relic of the the way things used to be as you seem to think.

Sorry but this is how it is - they honestly don't give a shit about a degree and if anything (as others have said) they get worried as they think you'll have some air of entitlement or are not prepared to learn it from the bottom up.

And I wasn't some green pea - I graduated from Audio engineering school nearly 9 years before, started out in audio retail, moved to trade broadcast sales, then engineering consultancy and audio installation work, then up to producing live broadcasts, jingles and radio segments for the PR industry.

And I gave it up to get cups of tea as that really is the only way to get in to a professional studio - be it here in the USA or in London.

I do not know a single person who came out of Audio Engineering school and landed a Engineering position straight off - absolutely no-one.

The only person I have know who got in to the audio field of the back of school alone was a friend who did their PHD in DSP technology, and even then they only got a job doing things for yamaha that they were doing in their first year of uni (5 years prior).


1st or Senior Engineers in a studio won't give any priority to someone with a degree over someone else, and neither will studio managers. Don't get me wrong, it's great that you've got it but I've watched guys with 6 month AE certificates get runner positions over guys that have degrees as they were more enthusiastic.

Here's the secret: Fuck your qualifications.....

.....It's not about your grades: The whole point of running is to test you; to see if you fit in; to see if you learn fast; to see if you react well when they push you; to see if you can survive without sleep; to see if you have a thick skin and a sense of humor. No studio is going to take a chance in a high pressure environment based off your resume. PERIOD.

The audio knowledge is secondary. One of the guys I've worked with is a major score mxing engineer. He was the receptionist and didn't know hardly anything about audio theory apart from how to plug in a guitar. But he had passion to learn, a very thick skin, took everything that they threw at him, and paid attention. His audio knowledge now vastly outstrips the vast majority of people I've ever met and he's an incredible engineer.

This sort of story is the norm, not the exception.

So when you have your qualification, better start practicing how to make a decent tea....

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Kisemet - I'm sorry but you're talking out of your arse and not from a place of knowledge about this. I only got my studio job two years ago so my experience is very valid and not some relic of the the way things used to be as you seem to think. Sorry but this is how it is - they honestly don't give a shit about a degree and if anything (as others have said) they get worried as they think you'll have some air of entitlement or are not prepared to learn it from the bottom up. And I wasn't some green pea - I graduated from Audio engineering school nearly 9 years before, started out in audio retail, moved to trade broadcast sales, then engineering consultancy and audio installation work, then up to producing live broadcasts, jingles and radio segments for the PR industry. And I gave it up to get cups of tea as that really is the only way to get in to a professional studio - be it here in the USA or in London. I do not know a single person who came out of Audio Engineering school and landed a Engineering position straight off - absolutely no-one. The only person I have know who got in to the audio field of the back of school alone was a friend who did their PHD in DSP technology, and even then they only got a job doing things for yamaha that they were doing in their first year of uni (5 years prior). 1st or Senior Engineers in a studio won't give any priority to someone with a degree over someone else, and neither will studio managers. Don't get me wrong, it's great that you've got it but I've watched guys with 6 month AE certificates get runner positions over guys that have degrees as they were more enthusiastic. Here's the secret: Fuck your qualifications..... .....It's not about your grades: The whole point of running is to test you; to see if you fit in; to see if you learn fast; to see if you react well when they push you; to see if you can survive without sleep; to see if you have a thick skin and a sense of humor. No studio is going to take a chance in a high pressure environment based off your resume. PERIOD. The audio knowledge is secondary. One of the guys I've worked with is a major score mxing engineer. He was the receptionist and didn't know hardly anything about audio theory apart from how to plug in a guitar. But he had passion to learn, a very thick skin, took everything that they threw at him, and paid attention. His audio knowledge now vastly outstrips the vast majority of people I've ever met and he's an incredible engineer. This sort of story is the norm, not the exception. So when you have your qualification, be tter start practicing how to make a decent tea....

In any professional setting, someone with a Degree/Knowledge/Drive > Green Pea(Inexperienced Person)/Drive, when it comes to getting the job.

And your example is rather terrible, because that person already had a place in the studio. Its not the same as someone green walking in (which would be the people on this forum asking how to get into a studio). That receiption has connections...a method i already discussed.

Let me remind you guys the topic. A new kid on the block wanting to get his foot into a studio. How should he go about it? This does not mean, some dude that has been mopping floors and doing favors for the studio in the past already. Of course this person has an edge and does not fit the average person here looking for a potential spot, and due to connections built up would have an edge over someone with a degree, only due the past connect. Its like you guys are completely neglecting the actual situation or potentials, and creating these cases that does not fit the average person here, who has no experience in a well equipped studio. So how are you helping anyone here with fairy tales? While my advice is something that will actually give them a chance. Basically what you guys are saying is an orange seller on the street has an equal chance at a job as someone with a BA/BS degree at a decent 4 year school. Because the orange seller has drive, passion, they might fit in. Ok thats fine, but in modern society this is far and few between compared to a kid with credentials/degree.

And not everyone with a degree has an air of entitlement, this is what the interview process and the first few weeks of hire would be able to figure out, and the next kid with credentials would be given a shot, over a kid with no experience.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker

Thats what i'm doing man, for sure. Dealing with people who are changing the case to make their fairy tale arguments true. But today, they would be rare cases. I know a kid in recording school, and he would beat anyone here in getting a gig based on his knowledge/developing credential. I'd hire him before hiring a kid asking to be let in with big lady n the tramp eyes and a pouted lip, which is what the average person would be against people with studio knowledge and a degree of accomplishing a studio based curriculum.

lol well that is great that you would hire him. Now do you own a multi million dollar studio ? You seem to not understand the difference between how things work and how you think or want them to work. You are rather annoying. I can honestly say you will never ever work in that industry until your perspective and attitude change. I can pretty much swear on djRann's first born.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Thats what i'm doing man, for sure. Dealing with people who are changing the case to make their fairy tale arguments true. But today, they would be rare cases. I know a kid in recording school, and he would beat anyone here in getting a gig based on his knowledge/developing credential. I'd hire him before hiring a kid asking to be let in with big lady n the tramp eyes and a pouted lip, which is what the average person would be against people with studio knowledge and a degree of accomplishing a studio based curriculum.

Saying you'd hire someone without actually being able to do so means absolutely nothing other than demonstrating you're clearly willing to speak authoritatively concerning matters well above your pay-grade.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 In any professional setting, someone with a Degree/Knowledge/Drive > Green Pea(Inexperienced Person)/Drive, when it comes to getting the job. And your example is rather terrible, because that person already had a place in the studio. Its not the same as someone green walking in (which would be the people on this forum asking how to get into a studio). That receiption has connections...a method i already discussed. Let me remind you guys the topic. A new kid on the block wanting to get his foot into a studio. How should he go about it? This does not mean, some dude that has been mopping floors and doing favors for the studio in the past already. Of course this person has an edge and does not fit the average person here looking for a potential spot, and due to connections built up would have an edge over someone with a degree, only due the past connect. Its like you guys are completely neglecting the actual situation or potentials, and creating these cases that does not fit the average person here, who has no experience in a well equipped studio. So how are you helping anyone here with fairy tales? While my advice is something that will actually give them a chance. Basically what you guys are saying is an orange seller on the street has an equal chance at a job as someone with a BA/BS degree at a decent 4 year school. Because the orange seller has drive, passion, they might fit in. Ok thats fine, but in modern society this is far and few between compared to a kid with credentials/degree. And not everyone with a degree has an air of entitlement, this is what the interview process and the first few weeks of hire would be able to figure out, and the next kid with credentials would be given a shot, over a kid with no experience.

Which bit of this don't fucking you get. I did not have a job there. I wanted a job at ANY studio when I arrived in the states. and this is how I got it.

This is how EVERY person there on the engineering side got it. This is how every person I have known who got a job as an engineer got their position.

You can cry and moan as much as you want but your version of the truth is the fairy tale, and not mine or M4B's.

I can't say this any other way - they just don't care about your degree.

They care if you'll work hard and have a brain. Yes a degree can be an indicator of that fact but your still going to have to be runner to prove it to them.

I've watched a few guys with qualifications, real talent, and knowledge fall by the wayside becuase they couldn't hack the running and felt like "what am I doing? I've got a fucking degree!", while guys who didn't even have degrees (high school only) toughed it out and got the jobs.

they want to test you, then mold you in to shape.

In modern society degrees can help you in nearly every field, but this is one where it just doesn't really do anything (apart from for your own knowledge) as there are no shortcuts (unless you have uber connections but that's a different discussion altogether).

You may well be able to learn faster after you finally get that chance to engineer and you may shine brighter once you're there, but I'm sorry it's not going to get your foot in the door any faster than the guy who did a 3 month music production course or the guy how has been making music at home for a year and knows his basics on Protools or Logic.

please keep pissing and moaning but it's not going to change anything. This is how it is in pro studios and post production houses all over the world. I work in this field, have done in two countries and see it every single day. Just deal with it already.

So either start making serious connections or get ready to be a runner.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad lol well that is great that you would hire him. Now do you own a multi million dollar studio ? You seem to not understand the difference between how things work and how you think or want them to work. You are rather annoying.

Well why dont you do a test. Go on a forum that focuses on studios, and post two ads looking for an internship. One that says you are this great guy, you have drive, you will deliver coffee on your head like an egyptian, and you will give back rubs, and you want to learn how to work the studio. And another that says all that except the last part + you have a degree that is based on studio curriculum. Lets put fairytale method to work against my logic based method.

You will like not get any responses from the first ad.

remember kismet's snowball effect he used to talk about circa last year. lol. what a character.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Well why dont you do a test. Go on a forum that focuses on studios, and post two ads looking for an internship. One that says you are this great guy, you have drive, you will deliver coffee on your head like an egyptian, and you will give back rubs, and you want to learn how to work the studio. And another that says all that except the last part + you have a degree that is based on studio curriculum. Lets put fairytale method to work against my logic based method. You will like not get any responses from the first ad.

you won't get any replies from either you numbnuts.

Lol.

Kismet, read my last post. You have to ask them, not the other way around. You seem to think there's an abundance of studios just desperate for college grads

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