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quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue hell no dude. you may be able to manipulate the sound a bit more with a guitar (ie vibrato, bends, etc) but piano is far more complex. prime example: piano music = master clef. guitar music = treble clef. piano = your left hand is playing in a separate clef than your right hand at many times. guitar = your left hand is fingering the notes, your right is performing the rhythm. and intricate finger placement my ass. guitar finger placement is all patterns that never change regardless of the position on the fret board. you will never be able to mimic note-for-note the most complex piano pieces with a guitar; conversely, the piano can come pretty damn close to emulating anything the guitar can play (sans certain types of sound manipulation such as bends like i mentioned earlier). you're wrong, william.

Nah I think guitar especially string manipulation - wire manipulation is more demanding than pressing ivory.

Also you need to hold the guitar, you are only positioning with a piano.

Also the electric guitar adds a whole new dimension with pedaling as well as potentially feedback. Also guitar uses much more sustain, and far more sensitivity than a piano.

The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number.

The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords)

Fact is guitar is a more complex instrument to play intricately.

Guitar is more of a sequential instrument composed of chords and runs. piano while able to do the same thing allows chords to be played with one hand - not two. Although both can do this in opposite piano with two hands, chords with one -- it is more common the other way.


The scale of play (by that i mean size and positioning requirements) are more demanding for guitar also - and this is a major factor in terms of precision. Also some guitars are fretless, in terms partial tone capacities, as well as fret retuning (by altering the length of the string) these are elements you are neglecting from the capacities of the instrument. With piano retuning in that manner is far more limited, dangerous, and rare.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Nah I think guitar especially string manipulation - wire manipulation is more demanding than pressing ivory. Also you need to hold the guitar, you are only positioning with a piano. Also the electric guitar adds a whole new dimension with pedaling as well as potentially feedback. Also guitar uses much more sustain, and far more sensitivity than a piano. The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number. The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords) Fact is guitar is a more complex instrument to play intricately. Guitar is more of a sequential instrument composed of chords and runs. piano while able to do the same thing allows chords to be played with one hand - not two. Although both can do this in opposite piano with two hands, chords with one -- it is more common the other way. The scale of play (by that i mean size and positioning requirements) are more demanding for guitar also - and this is a major factor in terms of precision. Also some guitars are fretless, in terms partial tone capacities, as well as fret retuning (by altering the length of the string) these are elements you are neglecting from the capacities fo the instrument. With piano retuning in that manner is far more limited, dangerous, and rare.

You are a fool and you have no idea what you're talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker You are a fool and you have no idea what you're talking about.

ad hominem eddie, rise above your pettyness.

Make a point or STFU.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** ad hominem eddie, rise above your pettyness. Make a point or STFU.

Make a point against an ultimately meaningless wall of text used to support a hypothesis for which you've not demonstrated any meaningful expertise? You already made my point.

ZING!

Jamtime by Le Freak

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik I played the Mandolin for about 10 years

reminds me of


Back to what I was saying before... Its not that I want to be a perfectionist its more about be able to enjoy playing where you can rise above repetitive chore like note for note playing. The more I think about it I would love to be able to play jazz/blues because it affords more creativity and fun with the freedom of improvisation. I also get that if you struggle with the technical aspects its impossible to enjoy playing. I was never able to rise to that level when I played the guitar and as a consequence it wasn't fun.

Played saxophone for 8 years. Sadly, it's been collecting dust in the closet for a while now...

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow Back to what I was saying before... Its not that I want to be a perfectionist its more about be able to enjoy playing where you can rise above repetitive chore like note for note playing. The more I think about it I would love to be able to play jazz/blues because it affords more creativity and fun with the freedom of improvisation. I also get that if you struggle with the technical aspects its impossible to enjoy playing. I was never able to rise to that level when I played the guitar and as a consequence it wasn't fun.

Recently, I got to the point in my keyboard playing where I'll put off getting a track down in the sequencer because I'm having fun playing it and screwing around with all of the different permutations and improvisations. It took a little while to get to that point, though, and a lot of the un-fun, technical stuff that I still have to resort to, in order to warm up to a part.

Lira plays the saxophone, the recorder, the piano, and the talking in the 3rd person character

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Lira plays the saxophone, the recorder, the piano, and the talking in the 3rd person character

ever thought about joining a Peruvian flute band? God I thought every kid was force to pay that stupid recorder in elementary school. I still hate it to this day.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow ever thought about joining a Peruvian flute band? God I thought every kid was force to pay that stupid recorder in elementary school. I still hate it to this day.

Hah, it's not obligatory where I live, but yeah, I didn't really "choose" to play it. I had to learn how to play it before moving up to the saxophone

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Lira didn't choose to play the recorder. The recorder chose him - and ever since he has been packing venues all over the world, playing along-side renown DJs and musicians from Paul Oakenfold to The Beach Boys.

Fixed for self-aggrandizing third person DJ/producer facebook bio.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Fixed for self-aggrandizing third person DJ/producer facebook bio.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Nah I think guitar especially string manipulation - wire manipulation is more demanding than pressing ivory. Also you need to hold the guitar, you are only positioning with a piano. Also the electric guitar adds a whole new dimension with pedaling as well as potentially feedback. Also guitar uses much more sustain, and far more sensitivity than a piano. The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number. The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords) Fact is guitar is a more complex instrument to play intricately. Guitar is more of a sequential instrument composed of chords and runs. piano while able to do the same thing allows chords to be played with one hand - not two. Although both can do this in opposite piano with two hands, chords with one -- it is more common the other way. The scale of play (by that i mean size and positioning requirements) are more demanding for guitar also - and this is a major factor in terms of precision. Also some guitars are fretless, in terms partial tone capacities, as well as fret retuning (by altering the length of the string) these are elements you are neglecting from the capacities of the instrument. With piano retuning in that manner is far more limited, dangerous, and rare.

no. oh God, no. there is so much wrong with every statement there i almost don't feel like replying.

"The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number.

The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords)"

this is by far the most retarded thing i've ever read, ever. lol. i.. oh fuck. lololol

first of all, the piano has 7 distinct notes. repeated in ascending/descending octave from middle C. there are 88 keys in a standard piano. where did you get 10 from? more importantly, where did you get 97 from?? and your equation 10 x 97 is so. so. wrong. i'm not gonna bother explaining- but think about it for a minute.

you think pianos don't have multiple fingering positions?? pianos can and do have just as many weird positions and methods of playing different chords. i don't even know where to go with that. a guitar fretboard and a row of piano keys is basically the same thing dude.


now for the rest of your horrendous argument-

since when does holding the guitar make playing it more complex than a piano? it weighs like, 2 lbs dude. hey piano is more complex because you gotta reach all the way down and up to the upper and lower registers. a fretboard isn't that long. i'm a GENIUS

electric guitars DON'T have pedals. pianos do. why is sustain more important in electric guitar music? everything a pianist plays must therefore be played as staccato as possible? what do you think the pedals under the piano is for?? SUSTAIN, you.. you.. ffs. and why couldn't an individual plug an electric piano into a bunch of effects pedals like a guitar? far more sensitivity?? who told you that? you think piano pieces don't dictate dynamics?

and piano is just as sequential of an instrument as a guitar. look at a fucking piano and it's sequence of keys and tell me why a guitar is more sequential than a piano. it's the fucking definition of sequence.

the only point that even remotely makes sense is that fact that pianos, if tuned correctly, won't be able to inherently play semitones; which i've already addressed earlier by mentioning that the only difference is that guitars can manipulate tones (ie BENDING which deals with semitones). you think you can't retune a piano? do you know how a piano works? did you know that each key is a hammer for a string, much like what a guitar has?? you're a moron.

how about this, genius- a piano can play an nearly infinite combination of chords, and technically can play an 88-note chord. what's the maximum amount of notes that can be contained within a guitar chord?

here's another one- i want to play a chord in the bass clef to provide rhythm for a melody that i'm playing in the treble clef. can a guitar do that? dur durr durr dur durr

i now realize that you have probably never touched a guitar in your life, nor a piano, and that your try-hard faux-enlightened psychotic-babbling is the worst form of communicative shit that anyone on here has ever experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue no. oh God, no. there is so much wrong with every statement there i almost don't feel like replying. "The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number. The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords)" this is by far the most retarded thing i've ever read, ever. lol. i.. oh fuck. lololol first of all, the piano has 7 distinct notes. repeated in ascending/descending octave from middle C. there are 88 keys in a standard piano. where did you get 10 from? more importantly, where did you get 97 from?? and your equation 10 x 97 is so. so. wrong. i'm not gonna bother explaining- but think about it for a minute. you think pianos don't have multiple fingering positions?? pianos can and do have just as many weird positions and methods of playing different chords. i don't even know where to go with that. a guitar fretboard and a row of piano keys is basically the same thing dude. now for the rest of your horrendous argument- since when does holding the guitar make playing it more complex than a piano? it weighs like, 2 lbs dude. hey piano is more complex because you gotta reach all the way down and up to the upper and lower registers. a fretboard isn't that long. i'm a GENIUS electric guitars DON'T have pedals. pianos do. why is sustain more important in electric guitar music? everything a pianist plays must therefore be played as staccato as possible? what do you think the pedals under the piano is for?? SUSTAIN, you.. you.. ffs. and why couldn't an individual plug an electric piano into a bunch of effects pedals like a guitar? far more sensitivity?? who told you that? you think piano pieces don't dictate dynamics? and piano is just as sequential of an instrument as a guitar. look at a fucking piano and it's sequence of keys and tell me why a guitar is more sequential than a piano. it's the fucking definition of sequence. the only point that even remotely makes sense is that fact that pianos, if tuned correctly, won't be able to inherently play semitones; which i've already addressed earlier by mentioning that the only difference is that guitars can manipulate tones (ie BENDING which deals with semitones). you think you can't retune a piano? do you know how a piano works? did you know that each key is a hammer for a string, much like what a guitar has?? you're a moron. how about this, genius- a piano can play an nearly infinite combination of chords, and technically can play an 88-note chord. what's the maximum amount of notes that can be contained within a guitar chord? here's another one- i want to play a chord in the bass clef to provide rhythm for a melody that i'm playing in the treble clef. can a guitar do that? dur durr durr dur durr i now realize that you have probably never touched a guitar in your life, nor a piano, and that your try-hard faux-enlightened psychotic-babbling is the worst form of communicative shit that anyone on here has ever experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker

dude, for real.

not to mention if we're going to include effects pedals with electric guitars in the complexity argument, then we must also include synthesizers with pianos- and we both know there are literally millions of complexities and options there.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue dude, for real. not to mention if we're going to include effects pedals with electric guitars in the complexity argument, then we must also include synthesizers with pianos- and we both know there are literally millions of complexities and options there.

I completely agree and you are a more patient man than I am for explaining it. Now watch and facepalm as he completely misses the point on everything you just posted and replies with yet more inanity.

wow ob went off.

I'm not going to even try to defend Ashley. My original point is every instrument is challenging in different ways. For the guitar I found it difficult to contort my fingers to form cords. I lacked both the flexibility and strength. While I haven't played the piano I've read that its equally difficult but in different ways, some of which you pointed out. Although some instruments maybe easier to play because they use a physical trait that you have. For example, large hands I've heard are a good asset to playing the piano, although that alone won't make you a good player, just lends itself to that particular instrument.

i hear you play a mean mouth organ.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow wow ob went off.

heh, i think i was being relatively civil. i mean, one can treat anything that william ashley says with only so much politeness before... eugh.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker I completely agree and you are a more patient man than I am for explaining it. Now watch and facepalm as he completely misses the point on everything you just posted and replies with yet more inanity.

dude i was seriously not going to reply. there was just so much inanity in that counter-argument, i just.. couldn't be arsed at first. but ffs it's like i feel this moral obligation to explain it, much like the moral obligation to explain... oh, i don't know.. the fact that the world is round, or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue no. oh God, no. there is so much wrong with every statement there i almost don't feel like replying. "The piano also has a set number of notes 10 times 97 (for the a large piano) so 9700 possible finger arrangements *this is an arbitrary number. The guitar however has multiple fingering positions, and the time you have to change them is far more complicated than with piano. Since piano positions are always the same (excepting actual note differences when playing chords)" this is by far the most retarded thing i've ever read, ever. lol. i.. oh fuck. lololol

Let me guess you were looking into a mirror when you read your face?

quote:

first of all, the piano has 7 distinct notes.

Actually the piano has far more 'notes' in that it has multiple octaves, and each note has a seperate pitch.

quote:

repeated in ascending/descending octave from middle C. there are 88 keys in a standard piano.

One of the largest pianos available has 97 keys.
http://www.bosendorferlasvegas.com/...fer-difference/

quote:

where did you get 10 from? more importantly,

humans have 10 digits to play the piano with (in almost all conditions) except when when playing with the face elbows and feet. going well beyond the realm of play - this would also be applicable to guitar though.

quote:

where did you get 97 from??

The number of keys on the largest pianos normally available.

quote:

and your equation 10 x 97 is so. so. wrong. i'm not gonna bother explaining- but think about it for a minute.[qoute] 97 keys 10 fingers. you can only play one note once but there is a limited range of play for each hand. [quote]you think pianos don't have multiple fingering positions??

For unique chords they don't - by this I mean chords playing the same pitched notes. And while I said yes you can play different pitched notes that are the same letter - this is a legacy of the very poorly created western notation system though, because the notes are really nothing alike they have different pitches, they just happen to have a mathematical likeness in terms of aural sense - each note is really very much unique by pitch. The guitar allows multiple strings that allow the same pitch to be played in different finger positions. While the timbre is different the chord itself is the same - something you can't do with multiple figering positions on the piano - although true you can use different digits to play different chords on the piano you can do this with guitar also - the point was the position while playing the instrument is drastically altered on a guitar and there are multiple arangements - added more by changing tuning of each string.

quote:

pianos can and do have just as many weird positions and methods of playing different chords. i don't even know where to go with that. a guitar fretboard and a row of piano keys is basically the same thing dude.

No it isn't.

quote:

now for the rest of your horrendous argument- since when does holding the guitar make playing it more complex than a piano? it weighs like, 2 lbs dude. hey piano is more complex because you gotta reach all the way down and up to the upper and lower registers. a fretboard isn't that long. i'm a GENIUS

Maybe you just have short arms? The guitar is about half the size of a piano but the arm range is about the same. And you have to fight gravity more.....

quote:

electric guitars DON'T have pedals. pianos do.

This just shows you don't use an electric guitar.

quote:

why is sustain more important in electric guitar music?

Because it is a primarily string instrument - although yes it is also percusive like piano - the sound characteristics of a guitar are better suited for sustained notes because they can ... pianos sustain is more of a reverb, not a true sustain. (with piano sustain the note continues and is plended for the period of the pedal depression - with a guitar you can actually still manipulate the note by texturing and contact with the string)

quote:

everything a pianist plays must therefore be played as staccato as possible?

most piano music is that way. up into contemporary music piano work has mostly been very vivid. Guitars have concentrated on chord repetition with exceptions of specific types of guitar play such as flemenco - the electric guitar is better suited for sustain though.

quote:

what do you think the pedals under the piano is for?? SUSTAIN, you.. you.. ffs.

see above piano pedaling is like a flat balloon.

quote:

and why couldn't an individual plug an electric piano into a bunch of effects pedals like a guitar?

Keyboard isn't piano. The keyboard as a synth will just give way to computer.... the keyboard with effects knobs etc.. is THE most complex insturment. But the piano is seen as a distinct instrument from the synth keyboard. The guitar on the other hand is often seen as common electric as accoustic - you actually ought to define accoustic or electric when using the term guitar. (acoustic and electric are subclasses of guitar -- piano is subclass of keys, keys are split between hammerded keys and non hammered - technically though keys are percusive, guitar is string (although it is a lot likethe piano but it is string, piano might be defined this way but it is more percusive becuase string manipulation isn't all possible while playing but rather a backdrop)

quote:

far more sensitivity?? who told you that? you think piano pieces don't dictate dynamics?

Classical score is extremely limited in dynamic notation. Tab isn't really any better - but the score and capabilities of the insturment are two differnet things... piano is a percussion instrument - guitar is a string istrument - string insturments have a lot more sensitivity than percussion instruments because they require more control of vibration than a percusion instrument because of the actual lenght of the instrument.

quote:

and piano is just as sequential of an instrument as a guitar. look at a fucking piano and it's sequence of keys and tell me why a guitar is more sequential than a piano. it's the fucking definition of sequence.

Guitars don't play notes at the same time they play them very shortly after one another, it is called strumming. Pianos on the other hand tend to play notes simultaniously. Thus the guitar is more sequential in mode of play. If you do the same thing with a piano the thickness of the piano sound as a effect of the size of it being a reverberated percusive instrument muddies the sound resulting in poor results in short time sequential play. Guitar is effectively designed for note plending by sequential play thus the point.

quote:

the only point that even remotely makes sense is that fact that pianos, if tuned correctly, won't be able to inherently play semitones; which i've already addressed earlier by mentioning that the only difference is that guitars can manipulate tones (ie BENDING which deals with semitones).

Guitars can do things well beyond semitones. This is why partialtones is brought into this.. piano isn't designed for being offkey. Rarely do you see people mess with the piano strings. It is too big of an instrument to do that really effectively. Also the size of the keys limits the size of the person playing somewhat so as playing the instrument like a harpsicord is reduced for even giants.

quote:

you think you can't retune a piano? do you know how a piano works? did you know that each key is a hammer for a string, much like what a guitar has?? you're a moron.

Tuning a piano is far more involved although working on the same principles - pianos arn't made to be easily retuned. Although it can be done, doing it while playing is more diffucult than doing so with a guitar. It simply isn't in the realm of play on available guitars Try tuining and playing at the same time.

quote:

how about this, genius- a piano can play an nearly infinite combination of chords, and technically can play an 88-note chord. what's the maximum amount of notes that can be contained within a guitar chord?

They cannot. Unforunately you don't understand because you don't get that pitch is different on notes and you are clinging to western musical tradition.

quote:

here's another one- i want to play a chord in the bass clef to provide rhythm for a melody that i'm playing in the treble clef. can a guitar do that? dur durr durr dur durr

If it has a string to do so, yes.

quote:

i now realize that you have probably never touched a guitar in your life, nor a piano, and that your try-hard faux-enlightened psychotic-babbling is the worst form of communicative shit that anyone on here has ever experienced.

Unfortuantely I can see you havn't ventured outside the world of western music notation. Come back to me when you actually know how music works.

lol...washedupley...you do realize that there are many configurations to guitars in regards to neck length and the number of strings right?

not to mention things like capos, pedals, and more like already mentioned.

oh dear lord what is happening to my thread.

arn't u a englesh techur?

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