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How the hell is this "keeping things on topic?" It's a shameless plug, exactly as the title suggests, and has nothing to do with production techniques or equipment. I've also never seen you contribute anything to this area of the forum.
I'm removing your SPAM from the original post and keeping this thread around only as a warning (and for the interesting side discussion). Don't do it again.
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| Originally posted by DigiNut How the hell is this "keeping things on topic?" It's a shameless plug, exactly as the title suggests, and has nothing to do with production techniques or equipment. I've also never seen you contribute anything to this area of the forum. I'm removing your SPAM from the original post and keeping this thread around only as a warning (and for the interesting side discussion). Don't do it again. |
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| Originally posted by Mad for Brad This scene needs more people that give, not take. And he is a taker. |
for film no. Orchestrators are always credited although I wasn't credited for many things as I wasn't part of the union and I didn't have a green card so that is really just a matter of protecting themselves and doing me a favour at the same time as I was working under the actual orchestrator technically a paid intern. None of the people I worked for would deny the work I did and would give me a reference. Ghost writing doesn't really exist in film. There are rumours such as Danny Elfman but I don't believe it and I think it is generated by disgruntled composes that are jealous. He is quite consistent and his style is quite clear. People said the same of Hans. Hans is not the greatest classical writer and does collaborate with other artists but he never fails to give credit where credit is due. there are just too many people involved in soundtracks to hide behind a guise. The process involves so many people from the orchestrators, to the conductors , to the contractors , directors, producers. If you don't know what you are doing and you are really just a mediator between the ghost writer , it just won't work because the nature of film scoring is very on the spot sometimes. Film scoring is also something you don't just fall into by luck. It is populated by some of the most talented musicians, composers on the planet. You don't just start making scores. It is a demanding job that would only appeal to someone that loves music and what they do as the workload is ridiculous and doesn't pay off until you are 50. People looking for fast money and fast success don't make soundtracks.
Almost every major score i've worked on has had revisions on the spot and a composer that didn't know what he was doing would be figured out extremely quick. You can't fake it in hollywood. It is just too intense and competitive.
Well I'm actually glad it is that way. You're basically saying Oakey isn't going to be able to hire others to get him some of the top scoring films. You think swordfish was his peak in film and he'll never get any further? If so, he's stuck with dance and pop. With little amounts of money being generated there, and everybody fighting over it, seems Paul might be DJ'ing for a long time if he wants to continue to live in Hollywood. That's really the only place to get paid right now for EDM and he has no pop music success to speak of at the moment.
Not at all, he can be a producer for film music b(music supervisor) but you don't hide behind ghost writers. You credit them because you aren't trying to secure your credibility as an artist but rather your ability as a producer to finish a soundtrack. There is no reason for a film composer/producer to fake your ability as it will show very quick. If your skill is the ability to decide what works and what doesn't without being a composer, you can make a good living, The point is that you don't have to lie about it because that skill is recognized. With ever film is a music director that sort of acts as a producer. Perhaps that is more what he is geared towards, Again , film music is not simple, there is alot of competition and you have to be really good and very aware of current trends. If he can do that, he can make a living. But he won't be fooling anyone pretending to compose.
My personal opinion is that most making film music are way out of their league and do not understand the link between music and motion film and end up using learned cliches that are insulting to the trained ear and competent movie critic. To be a good film composer , you have to not only have a good understand of music and theatre/Opera from the time of Wagner but also an understanding of current trends and everything in-between which most seem to not possess. I just think that Oakenfold is completely out of his element and surrounded by people that have been spending the last 20 years perfecting the craft he things he can somehow absorb in a matter of years.
I can see him doing advertisement, but feature films, well I just think that is something he just does not have the training and experience to do.
any idea how he landed such good scores with no experience a while back??
(swordfish, planet of the apes, collateral)
swordfish was in 2001 at the peak of his career working with Christopher young who has worked on countless movies. He probably got the gig from his tidle wave of fame and had to call in a composer once he realized he didn't know what he was doing. I haven't seen the film so I can't comment but I know there were a staggering amount of orchestrators that worked on the film. Odd no ? I just went to IDMB to be sure and there were 7. That is a lot.
planet of the apes was Elfmann
Colaterall was James Newton Howard
Perhaps he made a track for those films but he definitely has no hand in the composition.
I think the trend is quite clear. He had a chance, he tried, and he could not deliver. Hollywood does not tolerate fuck ups. I did just check out his work on IDMB and they are all theme songs for second rate TV. 1 track which can easily be done by anyone with a little help. But scoring is another ball game and if you can't talk the talk and walk the walk, you will have a really hard time.If you are just a mediator to the actual composer, the director is going to wonder why he is talking to you and not the composer and the producer is going to wonder why the hell he is paying a music supervisor. You might get away with it once like it seems he did but reputations are made and broken in a matter of 1 film. You don't really get second chances.
And some people do get work with no experience just from reputation but they all had alot of help at the beginning but showed promise. Trevor Rabin was a member of Yes and a great guitarist. and was cultivated by Zimmer's MediaVentures. Danny Elfman had 2 budget movies under his belt until he did BeatleJuice and then I do believe he was hired for Batman soon after but he was the lead singer of Oingo Boingo which gave him some berth at the beginning. Danny Elfman is really the only exception I can think of. He was very lucky and that is why there are so many rumours regarding his ability.
No doubt Paul can make a living just making single tracks like alot of other successful producers in hollywood but as a composer for film ? That is another matter. Perhaps he is studying composition at this very moment and will do work in the future. I started studying in 2002 and I am now able to do anything classical related but unlike Oakenfold, I did not have to deal with fame and all that comes with fame and I had the time to spend 14 hours a day studying. I was also a rather accomplished musician with 20 years in piano, 13 years in violin , 6 years of drums and 3 years of guitar so I wasn't completely learning from scratch. I doubt Oakenfold has or would even want to put that kind of effort and his current music vocabulary is probably extremely rudimentary.
I think it is important to distinguish a producer for media and a film composer as they are 2 very different things that require different skill sets. You can be an awful film composer but still be quite successful in licensing your music to media. Consider the novelist compared to the columnist. 2 different skill sets.
Richie - your writing is freakin' awesome to read. I love reading what you write about both music and the business.
Related to what you're talking about, if someone who had relatively little experience and knowledge about music somehow got noticed by someone in Hollywood who wanted us to score a film, would your advice be to turn it down, bone up on weaknesses and hope for a future call and/or is there a strategy you'd recommend in terms of getting our ducks lined up to make it feasible without wrecking future prospects?
you sometimes only get one chance so yes, accept the job. You take it, you get help. You do everything in your arsenal to finish the job as that is all you are being graded on. People will tolerate someone that might be new , a little over their head but the right attitude and vision to see the entire process out. The worst that could happen is that the director panics, and rejects your score and you don't work as a film composer but in most cases of rejected scores ( has happened to a few big composers ) the problem wasn't talent but rather communication. Either the director could not voice what he wanted and the composer could not extract what the director wants or the composer could not listen and follow instruction. Some directors have no musical vocabulary. They might hate a cue only because of a certain instrument that can be easily taken out but you won't get that specific instruction. The really good film composers have this sort of mind reading jedi trick. In a way, it is similar to Engineers in the same industry. It is assumed you have talent and what really makes you stick out is your ability to just dive in and get the job done. The ability to deal with ridiculous deadlines and constant changes working in a volatile environment keeping your cool. The music part is especially stressful as generally, the picture is locked and you have a fixed deadline and the music part is really the only deadline that will never be extended. If the director gets the feeling you aren't going to finish in time, you will know as you will either be replaced or forced to work with someone more experienced.
Many composers that popped up in the late 80's - early 90's had little experience and lots of help but they also had a vision and lots of talent. There is a lot of on the job training. You are only a film composer once you've made music for film. Making orchestral music that sounds like film music does not make you a film composer. There are a whole bunch of skill sets including probably the biggest one , being able to communicate, that are required on top of the music stuff. Just a little pet peeve of mine when people say they are film composers when they haven't ever put their music to media.
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| Originally posted by Mad for Brad swordfish was in 2001 at the peak of his career working with Christopher young who has worked on countless movies. He probably got the gig from his tidle wave of fame and had to call in a composer once he realized he didn't know what he was doing. I haven't seen the film so I can't comment but I know there were a staggering amount of orchestrators that worked on the film. Odd no ? I just went to IDMB to be sure and there were 7. That is a lot. |
yes but if you noticed, the actual scoring was not done by him. He just made tracks and licensed them to be used in the movie. Similar to just plugging a rap song in a movie. That doesn't make you a film composer. It makes you a producer /music supervisor. And I can guarantee the tracks he did make where done with his usual henchmen of ghost writers.
And the soundtrack isn't awesome. It is not cohesive and perhaps you might like some songs but to someone that appreciates the finer things in film , it would be considered the lowest form of film music. A great score has unity, is a part of the film that cannot be detached as it is so perfect together. I doubt this is the case. And I noticed for every track he "did" the name Andy Gray seems to show up.
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| Originally posted by Mad for Brad yes but if you noticed, the actual scoring was not done by him. He just made tracks and licensed them to be used in the movie. Similar to just plugging a rap song in a movie. That doesn't make you a film composer. It makes you a producer /music supervisor. And I can guarantee the tracks he did make where done with his usual henchmen of ghost writers. And the soundtrack isn't awesome. It is not cohesive and perhaps you might like some songs but to someone that appreciates the finer things in film , it would be considered the lowest form of film music. A great score has unity, is a part of the film that cannot be detached as it is so perfect together. I doubt this is the case. And I noticed for every track he "did" the name Andy Gray. |
a good cd doesn't make a good soundtrack. Good music doesn't make a good soundtrack. You obviously know little about the topic so just give it a rest. I am not debating the quality of music but rather his ability as a film composer. If you can't see the difference between someone that scores a unique work for film and someone that makes a collection of songs to force into a movie, then you won't understand the points i'm making.
Don't take my word for it
http://www.soundtrack.net/albums/database/?id=2775
To sum it up, he just made a bunch of songs that did not support the drama in any way and forced them in. Hack work and no surprise, nobody offered him anything of that magnitude since.
I don't even understand why he wants to score for films. It is more work than he wants to commit, it is technically less money than doing a theme song for a syndicated show. He probably makes more off the big brother theme a year than many composers make a film. I think he has no idea what scoring for film even means. I think he just wants to be relevant in Hollywood at any means necessary. He is a fame whore, not an artist.
Why does every thread here eventually turn out to be about Oakenfold?
Dance music is Oakenfold. No more no less.
And lo. Oakenfold, God's prophet on Earth, did lay the needle on the record and smooth bass-tones arose and anointed his flock with delightful melodies. And they didith hear the angel sing, from betwixt the highest hats, "Calling your name, can't you hear me calling? Calling your name, calling your name." And his flock gave rose, with the greatest anticipation and shouted his glory, flipped open their cell-phones, and did wave to the rhythm.
I've got to add my 2cents to what m4b is saying.
You're absolutely right about most of it, but the ghost thing is not actually correct - MANY composers (and I'm not going to get specific for obvious self protection reasons) use sub composers to write cues, even whole sections of cues, and while they may get an IMDB credit, they are not the person on the poster or listed as the composer - it will be additional music production services or score assistant etc, and that's not the same as "score by" or "composer". Those minor credit won't get you a gig unless you've got a ton of them, and even then it will probably only yield a zero budget indie film /which is at least a start but again that itself is not really going to get you paid scoring/composing work).
In fact there is one well known "composer" I have worked on a couple of occasions with who barely writes a thing, has studio musicians often just play with a minimal bit of direction and call it his score. He's won major awards and he is the most tenious description of what I would call a producer.
As for composers giving other (often sub) composers feature film breaks, yes, they will have done so much ghost writing by that point it's virtually the last thing to keep them on board from going somewhere else and getting gigs. I actually think some of it is just to keep the available work out there in the family, essentially for nothing more than stopping the competition.
Quite a few of the composers that you're thinking of in reality broke away, rather than being gifted the chance to score - many of them patched it up later (mutual) but it's accurate to infer they were brought up through the ranks as part of a philanthropic gesture. Yes, some are because talent is spotted but it's really to make sure that talent is in house rather than competition, bidding for the same films.
I really can't say much more about the specifics of this subjects (and I'm not trying to be mysterious and he knows why) but M4B is absolutely right about the talent aspect. You have to be unbelievably talented, very well educated, both academically and in terms of musical awareness, as well as doing a ridiculous amount of dog work to even have the opportunity to get the chance to sub a bed track for a cue that *may* get in to the film. A lot of the guys I work / have worked with did so much work that it so unbeleivably below their talent and ability levels for years just to get a small chance at fixing or conforming a cue for a reedited segment.
And to touch on the other skills part - you have to realize that nearly every composer relies on a team, in some cases an army, of help to "produce" a score, and so much of the battle of being a top flight composer can also rest on things such as how good you are in a meeting, whether you can pitch your idea effectively, whether you think on your feet in terms of musical ideas, whether you can rely on the right team of people around you - it's not just about music, so much is management, and the top guys have it down to a fucking artform.
By the way Zimmer got in to by being a composers assistant in London for many years but he got the chance to do that because he was the keyboard player for The Buggles - Video Killed the Radio Star. He's actually self taught (no formal music training) which does go a long way to explaining his model of collaborating with musicians to bring something to the score.
It's funny though, through my work as a score engineer at various studios, one thing that strikes me is how major music stars or "artists" are so far out of their depth when they are on a film project. It's actually staggering how at a loss they can be and the nurturing and producing that needs to go on to get something useful.
Some can play their genre or instrument so well, even be amazing at song writing, but the sheer intellectualisation of score music is way beyond them and by the time the science (conforming, tempos, editing) portion gets involved, they are just floundering.
You have to bear in mind that for a given score or even a mid budget film, there would be obvious orchestral elements but there may well also be electronic, asian, middle eastern, folk, african, (etc), all in the same score, and you have to be able to write for them and make sure they fit and compliment the film in a cohesive manner, which is one of the single most difficult aspects of scoring.
And this is why most EDM producers suck at scoring - it's the combination of all these skills, while trying to do all these different elements or discliplines and being flexible under extreme pressure to produce something creative and working with and "handling" a large number of people (and that can inlcude everything from Assistant engineers to the Executive producer or director of the film itself).
It's so much more complex than writing some soaring chords to a slo- mo battle scene.
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| Originally posted by Subtle Whatever dude, its one of my favorites CDs. Maybe you should see the movie first before actually judging the soundtrack and I can tell you this with 100% certainty. Many of the FX found in it can only be found in his Waldorf Wave if you have any doubt. |
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| Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Not taking sides here or anything but Andy Gray wrote all the swordfish tracks. |
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| Originally posted by DJ RANN I've got to add my 2cents to what m4b is saying. ... |
rejected scores still get paid. I"m assuming Oakenfoald didn't pay and that is why you are asking. I think that says alot if that is the case. The fact that he got away with it probably had to do with a dodgy contract and inexperienced composer.
As fas as Rann's mention of additional music, yes it happens often in fact orchestrators are often used past their initial task but I suppose my point is that most of these things occur because of a lack of time, not lack of talent and the lack of credits rarely has anything to do with protecting the original composer's credibility which is not the case with Oakenfoald. It is rare for a working film composer to never actually do anything as the actual climate is just too intense that you can't fake it and if you do , you can't fake if for that long.
I think unlike pop where you need some sort of artist credibility, for films your reputation is based off your ability to finish a film and do it right. I just can't see someone faking it, keeping his magic helper a secret when there are so many people involved and the need to communicate has to be quick and clear. You might as well just say this is my partner, and bring him into the loop as otherwise , you will end up looking very stupid very often. And I suppose my point I made before, why would you want to fake it in the film business. It just makes no sense. There is as much money in TV and you are under less pressure and you can easily get someone to make themes for shows and make a nice living without ever writing a note.
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| Originally posted by Mad for Brad There is as much money in TV and you are under less pressure and you can easily get someone to make themes for shows and make a nice living without ever writing a note. |
Depends what you do. There are people that just make themes for TV shows and they get a royalty every time the show airs so imagine that being syndicated across the country and how much money you can make. There are so many types of shows with different styled musical scheme that you can't loop them all together.
In general , deadlines are quicker , your team and the budget is smaller but in a way you do have more freedom. Most TV show scoring doesn't use live orchestras and there is a closer bridge between composition and production. Unlike a film, the cues tend to be quite short and the overall form I suppose in the way the form of a show compared to a movie is just more simple. I have only done 1 TV show so far and there was alot of work up front but you kind of keep replugging the same music for different episodes so once you get the initial work out of the way, it can be quite a comfortable thing.
One doesn't really lead to the other as a form of graduation. They are different. I wouldn't really say it is the kiddie pool. You have less time, less money to work with so the results reflect that but honestly, some shows have great music but they tend to be the big network prime time shows with a fairly large budget. I've heard better music in some TV shows lately than I have in some really big films.
The trend in TV tho seems to be the plugging of actual music and cross marketing so I do see it as a declining industry for some reason.
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| Originally posted by EddieZilker Another brilliant read. You guys should collab on a book. This stuff is totally interesting. To me, at least. |
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