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- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- Rob Ford's transportation platform, more subways and buses, fewer streetcars!
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quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew seriously, stop right there you don't live here and that's the end of it.

really? so my leaving because of the BS isnt worth anything? I still have a toronto address. Just not downtown!

And id gladly take public transport if it were a serious option. I just dont see the cost effectiveness or the convenience. Id like to see that change!

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Originally posted by geroin i hate streetcars but buses cause a lot more pollution in would be for electrical buses or trolleybuses only and since the city is growing north i would be for subway extending to at least major mackenzie on young from finch station.

hybrid buses like in waterloo..although cost and maintenance will prob be higher

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew streetcars > buses leave the buses for the boonies, downtown is doing great with the 'cars

i completely agree (wtf?!) but for street cars to be effective they need their own dedicated lanes. Do that and transportation with them will be very comparable to subways. I love what they did on St Clair, even though I rarely go there anymore. Do that with College, Queen and Bathurst and we're set.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH i completely agree (wtf?!) but for street cars to be effective they need their own dedicated lanes. Do that and transportation with them will be very comparable to subways.

wtf!
quoted for history

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Originally posted by Jayx1 really? so my leaving because of the BS isnt worth anything? I still have a toronto address. Just not downtown! And id gladly take public transport if it were a serious option. I just dont see the cost effectiveness or the convenience. Id like to see that change!

why are you complaining about public transit that you don't even use?Don't you drive everywhere?

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew why are you complaining about public transit that you don't even use?Don't you drive everywhere?

because i dont use it for a reason! read what i wrote. Id gladly use it if it were a suitable option. So im posting about ways to make it a suitable option so that i would use it!

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH i completely agree (wtf?!) but for street cars to be effective they need their own dedicated lanes. Do that and transportation with them will be very comparable to subways. I love what they did on St Clair, even though I rarely go there anymore. Do that with College, Queen and Bathurst and we're set.

dedicated right of ways have proven to be disruptive and an expensive boondoggle. A lot of st clair stores have gone out of business thanks to that right of way.

Subways are faster and dont take up surface space. They truly create more capacity instead of shifting or reducing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 dedicated right of ways have proven to be disruptive and an expensive boondoggle. A lot of st clair stores have gone out of business thanks to that right of way. Subways are faster and dont take up surface space. They truly create more capacity instead of shifting or reducing it.

Subways are a massive investment though, and cause years of disruption. Agree with you but putting in a subway is a whole other project when compared to a streetcar lane or even easier, putting up a bus stop.

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew seriously, stop right there you don't live here and that's the end of it.

Fallacy. Even though he does not live in TO, does not make his point any less valid.

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Originally posted by FunkyCrew trolleybuses are essentially the same as streetcars, since they are limited to the lines they're attached too minus the tracks I love how people who don't even live downtown or use streetcars whine the most, fuck. Wanna use the bus? Take the lovely route 36 on Jane & Finch Buses are loud, hardly any faster and way more uncomfortable to ride in.

I hate the street car on King. It fucks up all of traffic during rush hour. Why would you stop TWO lanes of traffic, for only one vehicle? Now with all the construction for the king street car, if you want to go west, you have to transfer, change routes, it gets crazy. To get to work from roncy, I actually go out of the way (North) to the subway to avoid that whole mess!
I've lived at steeles, and the bus did just fine up there. Please once again, what advantages do the streetcars have over buses?

Get rid of the streetcars, and you get rid of a part of Toronto's culture that aids in tourism. Kill annoyance for some, kill pleasure for others. Ironic that some would want to go Adam Vaughn on streetcars.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie Get rid of the streetcars, and you get rid of a part of Toronto's culture that aids in tourism. Kill annoyance for some, kill pleasure for others.

I dont think people come here for the streetcars to be honest. And if they did, we will still have 3 dedicated lanes in use for them.

Every other north american city got rid of them long ago for good reason.

The penny is something else that needs to go LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Orko Fallacy. Even though he does not live in TO, does not make his point any less valid. I hate the street car on King. It fucks up all of traffic during rush hour. Why would you stop TWO lanes of traffic, for only one vehicle? Now with all the construction for the king street car, if you want to go west, you have to transfer, change routes, it gets crazy. To get to work from roncy, I actually go out of the way (North) to the subway to avoid that whole mess! I've lived at steeles, and the bus did just fine up there. Please once again, what advantages do the streetcars have over buses?

So are we arguing from a driver's point of view or from a pedestrian/public transit user? Cus personally I don't drive and this whole traffic/lanes/etc business is irrelevent to me - I get out of the subway, jump into the streetcar and of I go (I actually prefer taking streetcars to subway downtown anyway, esp. in the summer)
like I said buses are much more unpleasant to ride in - double streetcars also hold more passangers

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Every other north american city got rid of them long ago for good reason.

WRONG! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...reetcar_scandal

ttc was to follow suit, but the plans were dropped after torontonians protested

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew So are we arguing from a driver's point of view or from a pedestrian/public transit user? Cus personally I don't drive and this whole traffic/lanes/etc business is irrelevent to me - I get out of the subway, jump into the streetcar and of I go (I actually prefer taking streetcars to subway downtown anyway, esp. in the summer) like I said buses are much more unpleasant to ride in - double streetcars also hold more passangers

So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute.

http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

quote:

Originally posted by geroin So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute. http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

right back at ya - just cus you guys are driving and streetcars are irrelevent to you doesn't mean everyone is affected

so it won't be costly to purchase more buses instead and starting on the whole new subway route?

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew right back at ya - just cus you guys are driving and streetcars are irrelevent to you doesn't mean everyone is affected

what?? where did i say it is irrelevant to me?? i said a new system has to be implemented to make it easier for everyone to commute. Maybe you missed the article i just posted?????

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 dedicated right of ways have proven to be disruptive and an expensive boondoggle. A lot of st clair stores have gone out of business thanks to that right of way. Subways are faster and dont take up surface space. They truly create more capacity instead of shifting or reducing it.

How have dedicated lanes been proven to be "disruptive"? They don't cause nearly the same sort of traffic jams that they used to since cars aren't required to stop along with street cars. Stores going out of business? Please elaborate on that. I can't see how a stores livelihood is based solely on the driving community of Toronto.

Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto just to please a few people. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be in Toronto, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it more economically viable. That sort of mentality is completely narrow-minded. You said yourself that the city is bankrupt and you're promoting more subway lines? lol

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Originally posted by geroin what?? where did i say it is irrelevant to me?? i said a new system has to be implemented to make it easier for everyone to commute. Maybe you missed the article i just posted?????

I don't think it will be easier for EVERYONE to commute there are people who find streetcars efficient enough and it's not just me

our system is fairly crappy compared to most other major NA cities, so they should start at the core, instead of patching up areas which are OK for now, i.e. streetcar routes

I personally find most street car routes to be a nightmare simply because of how the system was designed in Toronto. Go to Warsaw to see what a good street car system looks like.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute. http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

driving doesn't work for the city core.. it's not a scalable transportation method.. once you reach a certain point, it just fails, and toronto is there now.. we don't need less streetcars, we need more! and they all need to have dedicated lanes imo, as it improves the service and reduced commuting time

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 WRONG! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...reetcar_scandal ttc was to follow suit, but the plans were dropped after torontonians protested

interesting how it actually got done. But its a good thing it did. Imagine places like new york today if they had a streetcar system like ours? it would be mayhem!

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it economically feasible. That sort of mindset is completely blind to whats actually going on.

dissagree, if you drive past rutherford rd on any street north of the city you will see how much the city is growing north, it is massive. New houses are being built all the way reaching aurora EVERYWHERE but no new roads/highways are being built. In a matter of few years most areas have been occupied and more people are moving north. Traffic going home is ridiculous and if another option like taking the subway was available i'd definitely take it instead of driving home for 1h+ every day.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH How have dedicated lanes been proven to be "disruptive"? They don't cause nearly the same sort of traffic jams that they used to since cars aren't required to stop along with street cars. Stores going out of business? Please elaborate on that. I can't see how a stores livelihood is based solely on the driving community of Toronto. Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto just to please a few people. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be in Toronto, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it more economically viable. That sort of mentality is completely narrow-minded. You said yourself that the city is bankrupt and you're promoting more subway lines? lol

Reduced lane capacity, difficulty making left turns, and reduced on street parking to start. Subways are tougher to build for sure. But that doesnt mean settling for half assed solutions like transit city. If we want to be a world class city we have to do some extraordinary things. We should have started this in the 60s but sadly we have dithered for 40 years. It will take a long time to catch up. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt!

The subway lines will come from already allocated money for transit city. Its cost neutral. And its a good start.

I agree that the next phase should be a downtown subway like a queen st or king st line.

Creating the right of ways cost 100s of millions each whereas buses on those routes would cost pretty much the cost of the bus and cheap to build shelters and stops.

As for the harm caused to businesses. There is currently a lawsuit about that:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc...streetcar-route

quote:

Originally posted by geroin dissagree, if you drive past rutherford rd on any street north of the city you will see how much the city is growing north, it is massive. New houses are being built all the way reaching aurora EVERYWHERE but no new roads/highways are being built. In a matter of few years most areas have been occupied and more people are moving north. Traffic going home is ridiculous and if another option like taking the subway was available i'd definitely take it instead of driving home for 1h+ every day.

for the suburbs, subways should end at transportation hubs connecting to highways, trains and buses.

We need more suburban trains like in New York. We need to overhaul the clunky wasteful GO system.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I personally find most street car routes to be a nightmare simply because of how the system was designed in Toronto. Go to Warsaw to see what a good street car system looks like.

agreed

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 driving doesn't work for the city core.. it's not a scalable transportation method.. once you reach a certain point, it just fails, and toronto is there now.. we don't need less streetcars, we need more! and they all need to have dedicated lanes imo, as it improves the service and reduced commuting time

more streetcars for what? who's going to pay to maintain them?? they are slow as fuck and they take more space than any bus,
if anything i'd rather have a bigger subway system then.

With more immigration the city is growing substantially in all directions, a bigger subbway/bus system must be built to accommodate people that are traveling from north/east/west regions to the city for work. At the moment if i want to take a subway downtown i have to get to finch station which is ridiculous to get to in the morning in the first place and then spend another 40minutes to get downtown. thats like 1.5h commute which is bullshit.

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