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quote:

Originally posted by r5a ill smoke you

qft

system-j is on point 100%

the new shit in reach is making me depressed. its a good game but im not liking the changes yet. the DMR is an embarrassment.

also goldeneye > quake, the only quake there is is quake 3.

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone halo MP just pisses me off so much. every sensitivity setting i assign, all the hours i put i can't do shit. how in the fuck do those guys snipe so well on a controller? i mean really, it seems so ridiculous. it's rather a butthurt thread from halo mp, but seriously. it's really really aggravating mid air snipes every round off the propulsion pad on cage. come on

Then you put them together against K&M players and what happens? They get raped. Nuff said.

Console for driving/sports, PC for fps/rts.
RPG? Honestly, depends really but I think console edges ahead. Unless it's mainly a 1st person view, then PC for sure.

play quake live instagib with a controller...see how well you do..even with practice you'll never come in anything but last.



and these guys aren't even good.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Half-Life came out over a year after GoldenEye.

So what? This would put them in the same generation of games at the time.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J When GoldenEye was released, the best FPS on the PC were Duke Nukem 3D and Quake, and Quake was a fucking joke compared to GoldenEye. It's laughable that you even compare them. Quake was an obsolescent mindless maze-crawler notable entirely for having a good 3D engine, and Quake 2 was bullshit as well.

What absolute bollocks. Quake set the bar for the future of MP FPS gaming. It was also the first truly 3D shooter, and the first that required shooting up/down from the player�s viewpoint. It was the biggest competitive game of its era. only people that never played MP would call the game �mindless�.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J GoldenEye completely fucking changed the entire genre, I could write an entire post about the massive innovations it introduced that are now standard issue in every modern FPS. There is only one other FPS ever made that was as important as GoldenEye, and that is Doom.

I�m not denying GE�s place in gaming history, it was a great game. but as far as MP goes, it didn�t compare to quake or half life.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J In the pre-Internet era split-screen was the first time most people had played multiplayer FPS.

I don�t care about poor people.

and pkc why you butting heads with someone who sounds like he's been a nintendo power subscriber his whole life and never played anything without the NINTENDO SEAL OF QUALITY until halo came out?

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Originally posted by BTG and pkc why you butting heads with someone who sounds like he's been a nintendo power subscriber his whole life and never played anything without the NINTENDO SEAL OF QUALITY until halo came out?

Gotta fill in 9-5 somehow! Plus, system-j is way too smart to really think that GE was a better MP game than quake.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Gotta fill in 9-5 somehow! Plus, system-j is way too smart to really think that GE was a better MP game than quake.

it's obvious he never actually played MP quake.

talking about Quakes single player is like talking about a Porns storyline.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN So what? This would put them in the same generation of games at the time.

No it wouldn't. GoldenEye and Half-Life were both paradigm shifts that raised the bar and thus ushered in a new generation. Half-Life ended the Quake 2 and Unreal era second generation of shooters. It was released in November 1998 but didn't really pick up popularity until well into 1999, aided by the popularity of CounterStrike. GoldenEye ended the first maze-crawling generation of "Doom clones". It was released in August 1997 and suddenly FPS games stopped just being maze-crawlers and started trying to have holistic environments, objectives and pseudo-realistic AI enemies. It wasn't like today where gaming is so stagnant a flagship title can set the status quo for 3-5 years.

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What absolute bollocks. Quake set the bar for the future of MP FPS gaming. It was also the first truly 3D shooter, and the first that required shooting up/down from the player�s viewpoint. It was the biggest competitive game of its era. only people that never played MP would call the game �mindless�.

Fucking hell, you're trying to school me and you think Quake introduced freelook? CyClones and Marathon did it in '94. Dark Forces had a lot of up/down shooting in '95. And yeah Quake's multiplayer was good, but the single-player was gash. The only things the game actually introduced directly resulted from its 3D engine: bunny-hopping, grenades etc. Quake was a glorified tech demo, it was Doom redone in 3D. GoldenEye was on another planet in terms of design.

Methinks you're just another myopic "competitive" dullard.

quote:

Originally posted by BTG and pkc why you butting heads with someone who sounds like he's been a nintendo power subscriber his whole life and never played anything without the NINTENDO SEAL OF QUALITY until halo came out?

I played Doom and Doom II in '94, Heretic in '95, Quake in '96, Duke Nukem 3D in '96, Quake II in '98, Unreal in '98, Half-Life in '99, UT in '99, Quake 3 in '99. I was playing X-COM, C&C and Day Of The Tentacle on a Gateway 486 before Pentium Processors and Windows 95 existed. Halo? I remember when it was a Mac exclusive. Your strawman is bullshit, son. Insert coin to try again.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No it wouldn't. GoldenEye and Half-Life were both paradigm shifts that raised the bar and thus ushered in a new generation.

When I said �generation� I meant system generation, given that games takes 3-4 years to make, I consider half life to be in the same system generation as GE, given that it released the following year.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Fucking hell, you're trying to school me and you think Quake introduced freelook? CyClones and Marathon did it in '94. Dark Forces had a lot of up/down shooting in '95.

You�re right, I�ve never played cyclones or marathon. Can�t have been very good! I stand corrected. dark forces� up/down shooting was automatic, the mouse axis was fixed.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J And yeah Quake's multiplayer was good, but the single-player was gash. The only things the game actually introduced directly resulted from its 3D engine: bunny-hopping, grenades etc. Quake was a glorified tech demo, it was Doom redone in 3D. GoldenEye was on another planet in terms of design. Methinks you're just another myopic "competitive" dullard.

Which makes you what, an SP noob? I never claimed that quake�s SP was great. It was just a fun distraction. The MP however set the bar for every FPS game to come, and that�s not even mentioning team fortress etc. it was certainly a much better MP game than GE.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN When I said �generation� I meant system generation, given that games takes 3-4 years to make, I consider half life to be in the same system generation as GE, given that it released the following year.

If we're going on system generations, Half-Life was still next-gen because the Dreamcast was released when it was. The N64 was the PS1/Saturn system generation. And in those days, games did not take 3-4 years to make. Daikatana was slated for being extremely over-due, and that was announced in 1997 and released in 2000. As I said, things moved a lot more quickly in those days.

quote:

Which makes you what, an SP noob? I never claimed that quake�s SP was great. It was just a fun distraction. The MP however set the bar for every FPS game to come, and that�s not even mentioning team fortress etc. it was certainly a much better MP game than GE.

I'd be an "SP noob" if I were taking single-player as a synecdoche of the overall game, which I'm not. In terms of a complete package, GoldenEye was a much better, much more important game than Quake. Quake was a tech-demo, its achievement was its 3D engine and its speed. GoldenEye was a revolution, and even if its multiplayer was not a balanced and competitive experience it was never intended to be, and yet there are still elements from the multiplayer that reoccur in modern shooters. Nothing from Quake's single-player design was remotely relevant within a couple of years of its release.

The point is that the merit of a game lies within its design and its use of a control system. GoldenEye's controls had seven buttons and one analogue stick, and yet it allowed far richer and more interactive gameplay than any previous PC FPS. Halo is certainly not a perfectly balanced multiplayer experience, yet it had a set of features - the health/shield system, the dual-weapon inventory, the integrated grenades and the melee - that made it play very differently to previous shooters, something which holds true even today. If you dismiss quality of design with some misguided snobbery over control systems and an obsession with uber-precise competitve play then you're a fuckstick.

PC gamers are far too used to built-in superiority complexes and the kind of lazy condescension displayed by your man BTG to actually have their views challenged. And I say this as someone who thinks most of the best games ever made were for the PC and the PC only.

and what do games today borrow from goldeneye.

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Originally posted by BTG and don't call me son. you make it sound like you've just won a debate that has some kind of importance.

I don't consider anything you have to add to this thread of any importance. You're well known as an utter cretin around these parts, with good reason.

And although it isn't remotely relevant to your point, I played most of those games with other people. That is, the ones that actually have multiplayer modes.

lol you're such a prick.

i'm outa this thread. you can keep your nerd crown.

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone i have nhl 94 in my genesis as we speak one of the best games ever made

nigga yeah!

i loved that game. Wish i still had my nes.

PKC, you should also read this thread too while you're at it. So much misinformation being bandied about, it's borderline depressive.
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...48&pagenumber=1

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone halo MP just pisses me off so much. every sensitivity setting i assign, all the hours i put i can't do shit. how in the fuck do those guys snipe so well on a controller? i mean really, it seems so ridiculous. it's rather a butthurt thread from halo mp, but seriously. it's really really aggravating mid air snipes every round off the propulsion pad on cage. come on

exactly--it's much harder to be equally as good as you would be on a pc. whether this is a good or bad thing is entirely subjective.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J If we're going on system generations, Half-Life was still next-gen because the Dreamcast was released when it was.

You make a fair point. But, since the title came out the previous year, I am still going to compare it to HL given that GE�s influence on HL would be negligible unless you�re alleging that valve re-wrote the game mid-stream. Again, I am not doubting its quality, just that the MP did not light me on fire.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'd be an "SP noob" if I were taking single-player as a synecdoche of the overall game, which I'm not. In terms of a complete package, GoldenEye was a much better, much more important game than Quake. Quake was a tech-demo, its achievement was its 3D engine and its speed. GoldenEye was a revolution, and even if its multiplayer was not a balanced and competitive experience it was never intended to be, and yet there are still elements from the multiplayer that reoccur in modern shooters. Nothing from Quake's single-player design was remotely relevant within a couple of years of its release.

Well, I do agree that if we�re talking about the entire package GE brought more newness to the table, but as I only ever played the MP, that is all I am able to judge. And with its awkward controls, bland environments, split-screen slowdown etc, it didn�t provide ME with the same feelings of excitement that MP quake did at launch, which despite your protestations, was a massive improvement on doom, in level design, skillset required, balance, player configs etc.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Halo is certainly not a perfectly balanced multiplayer experience, yet it had a set of features - the health/shield system, the dual-weapon inventory, the integrated grenades and the melee - that made it play very differently to previous shooters, something which holds true even today. If you dismiss quality of design with some misguided snobbery over control systems and an obsession with uber-precise competitve play then you're a fuckstick.

Now now, why that level of abuse? We�re merely having a discussion and a difference of opinion, what have I said/done thus far to warrant that?

anyway, I would hardly call the dual-weapon inventory notable at all. sure, it made you choose which weapons you take on your adventure, but in the thick of it all it really meant was that you were forced to go grab another weapon if your ammo ran out. The health/shield system I agree made the game play differently, and this was a net loss to FPS everywhere. All you need to do is look at the shitness of health-recovery systems in just about any title released these days. sure, it was revolutionary, but not in a positive fashion. Melee existed from the times of wolfenstein (possibly before) and was a big part of Q3 so not sure what you�re referring to here.

Halo introduced a bunch of vehicles that were fun to pilot, the outside environments were great and I thought the AI was pretty good. other than that though it was boring, slow, simple and just a whole lot of not-very-much-fun. It provided no challenge in SP or MP and the MP was downright atrocious, at least on PC, where the controller-dumbed-down-speed of the game sucked all the life out of the title. I am surprised you could commend halo�s SP while lambasting quake�s, given that the former�s corridor shooting was fairly average.

as a gamer whose main interest in (traditional) FPS lies in competitive MP, I resent being called a fuckstick for placing greater importance in certain areas, particularly in things like precision, competitive gameplay, speed/skill ceilings etc. these are, after all, part of the fundamental aspects of FPS MP.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J PC gamers are far too used to built-in superiority complexes and the kind of lazy condescension displayed by your man BTG to actually have their views challenged. And I say this as someone who thinks most of the best games ever made were for the PC and the PC only.

Well, I�ve already accepted most of your arguments about GE, and possibly my remaining criticisms are caused by the fact I didn�t play it until 1999ish or maybe even 2000, when things had moved somewhat. However I take issue with your argument that halo really did anything new (and good) other than what I mentioned above.

quote:

Originally posted by shaw exactly--it's much harder to be equally as good as you would be on a pc. whether this is a good or bad thing is entirely subjective.

Not really true. In Halo you've got three different kinds of built-in help: auto-aim, aim-assist and larger hit boxes. That's without mentioning the slow movement speed relative to a PC shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Not really true. In Halo you've got three different kinds of built-in help: auto-aim, aim-assist and larger hit boxes. That's without mentioning the slow movement speed relative to a PC shooter.

that helps level the cross-platform playing field, so to speak, but certainly doesn't make them equal.

quote:

Originally posted by shaw that helps level the cross-platform playing field, so to speak, but certainly doesn't make them equal.

You�re only considering one side of the issue however (the �difficulty� of using a pad to shoot someone), you�re not considering the issue of the difficulty that person has in shooting you. Yes, a mouse is probably easier to aim with and its definitely more precise, which makes shooting you easier, but it also makes avoiding your enemy that much harder.

Quake was important in a number of areas which the consoles never even came close to touching, firstly- it was probably 'the' game that started competitive computer gaming against other people in deathmatch scenarios. Secondly, the private modifications of the game started a revolution in gaming, team deathmatch, rocket arena, capture the flag, team fortress etc went on and eventually spread to other platforms like Halflife (Counterstrike). No one made anything like that which was popular for console ports at the time.

Internet connectivity had a little something to do with that.

I remember playing Doom 2 in deathmatches over the net. That was actually the first place I'd heard the term.

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