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Listening to the mixdown now...

Your bass range is too muddy. The bassline itself sounds great on its own but it does cover a wide range of frequencies, why you'll have to be extra careful selecting a kick. And indeed I don't find the kick sample that great. It builds on the same bass as the bassline so you're getting a muddy drone that isn't complimented with an equally bright treble. It's hard to tell what I would do to change it other than changing the sample or approaching the EQ from a different angle. It might pay to look at EQing the bass, like cutting it around 110 Hz to make room for the kick here. Then turn anything but the kick and bass up (or the kick and bass down) as your bass range is too loud. Especially the open hat could do with more volume, and the snare is hardly audible. The crash level at 0:55 is pretty much spot on, so try basing things on that. Then work on clarifying your mid-range instruments. Some, especially leads, could do with more upper mid presence. Also consider compression to thicken things up. But the first step would be to get the kick and bass sorted in terms of level and EQ, as the rest of the mix is so dependent on it.

Now, switching over to the master...

0:27 definitely sounds too distorted, like the master limiter is working too hard.

I don't notice much of the multi-band compression you mentioned. Also the kick and bass still stick out at the forefront of the track, though definitely not as much in comparison.

Your treble and snare levels are certainly improved.

But overall your master does sound better, and you've targeted most of the mix issues, only I find the master limiter is doing too much damage.

As has been said though, there's no need to be mastering. Better improve your mixing skills first.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad no it isn't. Mastering Engineers have never tried to make all the tracks have the same rms level. More or less the same but never a target value which you stated. You also edited your post to explain your myth. They try and make the cd have a dynamic progression that makes sense, not make things equal. And if they did, they were shit engineers. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Mastering if anything is preparing something for a certain media format. They do sometimes have to do extra work because of weak mixes but really, that is all mastering every was and should be. Taking out garbage and artifacts ? that is something you fix in the recording process or at least in the mixing stage.

Quoted for Emphasis.

So after 3 pages and 9 seperate individuals responding...only 2 actually give critical advice on the topic stated in the thread...

Interesting. (I think they're just trying to look cool, while not actually contributing anything...) And with google and youtube at my disposal, don't I know everything? All I have to do is search. But it's not like I can upload my tracks onto google and ask it's opinion...(yet? dun dun dun)

That said...I absolutely 100% appreciate the feedback from nortek and Atlantis. (And beatflux, yes 10 years of cello instruction, but no hardcore musical theory, and thank you for the compliment)

I'm more than happy to take the advice into account on the mixdown and try to work it out, this wasn't entirely a troll post. (But I do know that people get super bent about "mastering") It was very simple actually, which sounds better, 1 or 2? The goal was to improve it without going into the mix itself.

_____________

Safe to say I had a general idea what was already wrong too, but what's wrong with second opinions?

The master sounds better to me on fresh ears, as it at least adds some clarity to the mix and adds some depth to the hats, crashes and snare. So if I could rework the master where it didn't trash the meds, and fixed my bass/kick, the track would be in good shape.

Consider this as a discussion of a proper mixdown vs. trying to correct a bad mix in the mastering process. We are trained as a society that mistakes are bad, but the best way to learn is to make them. Make them blatantly, make them proudly, you learn 100% faster by simply making mistakes. (Unless your mistake kills you)

And why did I want to try and fix a track without going into the mix in the first place?

Because we live in a free world I can. It was a fun attempt, and I can simply drop the mastered track in my recyling bin if I don't like it, as everything was done outside FL-studio.

listened and here is my 2cts: There is nothing to "fix" in the master that could not be fixed in the mix.

would focus on cleaning up the "mud" (300<>500hz area)
remove the harsh highs
forget what Nortek said about RTA, a perfect master does not look flat.
cut down on additive EQ and try to cut only
Be 100% happy with your mix (if you still tell yourself, i'll fix that when the levels come up, then there is still room for improvement)
then master

regarding mastering
- read about the K system, calibrate your speakers
- know your room
- no EQ (if you need to EQ go back to the mix)
- decent compression, read about attack / decay times, how you calculate them and how they affect your mix
- limit with a physics based limiter (not brickwall)
- dither properly

once you master above, you can tell yourself what's currently wrong with your master

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie listened and here is my 2cts: There is nothing to "fix" in the master that could not be fixed in the mix. would focus on cleaning up the "mud" (300<>500hz area) remove the harsh highs forget what Nortek said about RTA, a perfect master does not look flat. cut down on additive EQ and try to cut only Be 100% happy with your mix (if you still tell yourself, i'll fix that when the levels come up, then there is still room for improvement) then master regarding mastering - read about the K system, calibrate your speakers - know your room - no EQ (if you need to EQ go back to the mix) - decent compression, read about attack / decay times, how you calculate them and how they affect your mix - limit with a physics based limiter (not brickwall) - dither properly once you master above, you can tell yourself what's currently wrong with your master

<3, thanks much.

and some more perspective:

- most mastering advises online are from people who are mastering other people's tracks, they often come with tips, ideas and thoughts to "fix" stuff because they don't have access to individual tracks or notes of the song. Don't get distracted by that and try to implement all those tricks, while you still have access to the mix.

- A mix will NEVER be perfect, moods change, perception changes, I want to hear that hihat ride... I want that clap louder.
next day, too much noise, that clap is way too loud. recognize the feeling? > Settle with consensus, something that sounds awesome on good days, and you don't really know what to change if anything on bad days (those are often the days that you overengineer/screw-up a good thing!!!)

- commit to the mix: once you have consensus in your head > do a mixdown on 32bit if oyur daw allows (otherwise 24bit) and work from there. don't stay in an accessable arrangement too long. It's like sharing the bed with your ex-girlfiend, you fuck her just becuase you can, for old times sake.

- put a limiter on your mix, just to get a feel where it's going. don't mix into a limiter full time, but it might help to get and overall feel of what oyu can expect once the levels go up.
also already put that limiter aiming towards roughly -8db rms on a K12 level.

- also bright is bad, dull is good. aim for a smooth silky sound rather than a hard piercing one. If you want something that sounds good to stand out more > dull the rest.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie and some more perspective: - most mastering advises online are from people who are mastering other people's tracks, they often come with tips, ideas and thoughts to "fix" stuff because they don't have access to individual tracks or notes of the song. Don't get distracted by that and try to implement all those tricks, while you still have access to the mix. - A mix will NEVER be perfect, moods change, perception changes, I want to hear that hihat ride... I want that clap louder. next day, too much noise, that clap is way too loud. recognize the feeling? > Settle with consensus, something that sounds awesome on good days, and you don't really know what to change if anything on bad days (those are often the days that you overengineer/screw-up a good thing!!!) - commit to the mix: once you have consensus in your head > do a mixdown on 32bit if oyur daw allows (otherwise 24bit) and work from there. don't stay in an accessable arrangement too long. It's like sharing the bed with your ex-girlfiend, you fuck her just becuase you can, for old times sake. - put a limiter on your mix, just to get a feel where it's going. don't mix into a limiter full time, but it might help to get and overall feel of what oyu can expect once the levels go up. also already put that limiter aiming towards roughly -8db rms on a K12 level. - also bright is bad, dull is good. aim for a smooth silky sound rather than a hard piercing one. If you want something that sounds good to stand out more > dull the rest. Good luck!

Also needed to get my hands on some better softsynths, as analogue is still outta da question atm. (Which I've just done with Sylenth1 and Massive)

I was using Poizone/Sytrus/Toxic Biohazard and a bit of Nexus + an old Roland analogue synth for anything phat. I tried my best to make due with what I had...

I do find it really hard working with sound that already starts out rough in the first place, so starting with nice phat sound that doesn't need alot of work has been a plus.

I have been indeed learning since Track2 though, and I've actually been getting alot more positive feedback on more recent mixes.

And why k12 over k14?

quote:

Originally posted by theterran And why k12 over k14?

I use K-14 myself.

K-14 will not bring you commercial loudness unless you go into the reds on that scale. It's more like audiophile CD type loudness, leaving room for huge dynamics, but i guess it depends on what your goal is.
K14 is fine for a mix, leaves headroom to master towards -8dbrms @Mastering against K-14 would deliver tracks less loud than other commercial tracks IN THIS GENRE, so it's really where do yuo want to play in the loudness war. Where the trick is to get as loud as possible without any noticable artifacts from compression / distortion

quote:

Also needed to get my hands on some better softsynths, as analogue is still outta da question atm. (Which I've just done with Sylenth1 and Massive) I was using Poizone/Sytrus/Toxic Biohazard and a bit of Nexus + an old Roland analogue synth for anything phat. I tried my best to make due with what I had... I do find it really hard working with sound that already starts out rough in the first place, so starting with nice phat sound that doesn't need alot of work has been a plus. I have been indeed learning since Track2 though, and I've actually been getting alot more positive feedback on more recent mixes.

Also a little tip, learn have to do your own sounds/presets.
There is a really good free ebook on this subject does anyone remember what the name is?

there is some really good books on Mixing and Mastering to
Here are two:

http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Audio-...86989094&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Aud...pd_bxgy_b_img_c

/M

what the hell is k12/k14???

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie and some more perspective: - most mastering advises online are from people who are mastering other people's tracks, they often come with tips, ideas and thoughts to "fix" stuff because they don't have access to individual tracks or notes of the song. Don't get distracted by that and try to implement all those tricks, while you still have access to the mix. - A mix will NEVER be perfect, moods change, perception changes, I want to hear that hihat ride... I want that clap louder. next day, too much noise, that clap is way too loud. recognize the feeling? > Settle with consensus, something that sounds awesome on good days, and you don't really know what to change if anything on bad days (those are often the days that you overengineer/screw-up a good thing!!!) - commit to the mix: once you have consensus in your head > do a mixdown on 32bit if oyur daw allows (otherwise 24bit) and work from there. don't stay in an accessable arrangement too long. It's like sharing the bed with your ex-girlfiend, you fuck her just becuase you can, for old times sake.

Great advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie - put a limiter on your mix, just to get a feel where it's going. don't mix into a limiter full time, but it might help to get and overall feel of what oyu can expect once the levels go up. also already put that limiter aiming towards roughly -8db rms on a K12 level. - also bright is bad, dull is good. aim for a smooth silky sound rather than a hard piercing one. If you want something that sounds good to stand out more > dull the rest. Good luck!

Absolutely TERRIBLE advice. Do not listen to a word of this.

Possibly one of the worst things you can suggest to a novice produce is to slap a limiter on the master. It serves no purpose as a learning tool and is incredibly bad practice in just about every circumstance I can think of apart from worst case scenario situation where you're trying to save a bad situation to begin with. Even then it would still be one of my last choices.

What the fuck is last sentence about? Too bright and too dull are both
"bad" but that's like saying "love is good and fear is bad".

Metals need to be bright for instance. Hang drums should sound dull. Don't give hard and fast rules like this to beginners. They just confuse people, especially beginners.

And mixing to k12? I mix to K18 and for commercial stuff I'd maybe go to k14. With K12 an above you're really just sacrificing dynamic range and contributing to overloud masters.

Even k14 is generally considered as the standard for "loud" commercial
masters.

Personally I would so much prefer it if everyone worked to k18, we would maybe see some dynamics back in EDM.

Palm - The K system is a calibration method for your monitoring system. You basically calibrate your signal flow to a given point of reference. It's designed as such to give you a common point of preference for monitoring, while allowing a balance of headroom for you mixes. K18 is the film and orchestral standard, while K14 is generally the highest accepted K reference for commercial releases.


If you want to know how to do it, I wrote a guide here, but please read the whole thread so you get what's actually going on:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=actually+means

I mentioned very clearly not to mix in a limiter all the time, just for getting reassurance oyu need for forcing mixing decissions, should ALWAYS mixdown without a limiter. So RAN we're in agreement on this one.

2nd point: not EVERYTHING can be bright, this means that a lot of sounds already have enough brightness and it actually helps, shelving off some highs from conflicting sounds whicc take the space, rather than boosting that lead just a tad more.. this wlll ovenbrighten your mix eventually. Also dulling some sounds, will actually create more depth in your mix as well.

about -8dbrms, this (whether you like it or not) currently is the avg loudness of a commercial EDM track, ofcourse this will affect dynamics, but it's the sound of now. NOW you don't have to mix into K14/12 directly but again raising it's doesn't hurt to see where you track ends up at those levels once mastered.

I am fighting the loudness war myself, but you don't want Armin to grab your track, having the fader of this Pioneer maxed out and still your track doesn't match the level of the previous track mixed into

My mastering tip is not to do too much. I'm pretty sure you did a better job mastering your song than one of the recent metallica albums with 0 dynamics out there.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN If you want to know how to do it, I wrote a guide here, but please read the whole thread so you get what's actually going on: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=actually+means

i remember that thread. way out of my league. but thanks anyway, i might read it all when i have some spare time some day. i dont thing its really that important to me at this very moment but i always want to learn stuff so someday.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie I mentioned very clearly not to mix in a limiter all the time, just for getting reassurance oyu need for forcing mixing decissions, should ALWAYS mixdown without a limiter. So RAN we're in agreement on this one. 2nd point: not EVERYTHING can be bright, this means that a lot of sounds already have enough brightness and it actually helps, shelving off some highs from conflicting sounds whicc take the space, rather than boosting that lead just a tad more.. this wlll ovenbrighten your mix eventually. Also dulling some sounds, will actually create more depth in your mix as well. about -8dbrms, this (whether you like it or not) currently is the avg loudness of a commercial EDM track, ofcourse this will affect dynamics, but it's the sound of now. NOW you don't have to mix into K14/12 directly but again raising it's doesn't hurt to see where you track ends up at those levels once mastered. I am fighting the loudness war myself, but you don't want Armin to grab your track, having the fader of this Pioneer maxed out and still your track doesn't match the level of the previous track mixed into

Fair enough but your first two points were misleading the way they were stated in the post.

Frankly I feel that even mentioning a limiter on a master is a bad advice when speaking to a beginner. I just think that should not come in to a conversation about mastering for someone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing. A lot of people read the advice on here and then post up questions about what settings the limiter should have etc.

Now you clarified about the dull and bright thing in that you were talking about a a specific mixing method effect, which is dull certain elements so other things stand out. That's a lot more specific than dull = good, Bright = bad.

It can work great with vox: One of the best examples of this is Samantha James - Amber skies. The whole intro lead in is so dull, almost filtered and when the vocal kicks in it's so damn clean and clear. The psychological effect is very clever but in truth you can only get away with it so much because your brain begins to realise that some things are actually muffled in comparison to the bright things.

-8db RMS is a lot different to what you were orignially saying about between -6db to -12d which I and probably most people took for max PEAK, Bear in mind that -3dbfs RMS is actually 0db at PEAK (as a pure sine and slightly over simplified etc).

So here's my point: As the K system dictates that 83db SPL regardless of which K reference you're using (K14, K18, etc), why would you not mix to 0DBFS?

All you're doing is not using all the available headroom that the system is designed to give, and effectively raising the noise floor proportionately relative to your signal. Yes, it won't matter is your entire track is all synth, but if there's even one sample or rompler sound, you're not being as efficient as you could.

And remember, if you mix to 0dbfs peak, you can always just gain change the master file to suit your mastering engineer's file specs - at least you know you have mixed to your best point of reference.

@fsp - I totally agree. IMO mastering should be left up to mastering engineers in most ocases and if you do it yourself it should really be subtle and just a final polish.

I see waaaaaay to many people on here saying "what do you think about this mastering attempt", which I actually feel in 99% of cases the problems would be better solved during the mix.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I see waaaaaay to many people on here saying "what do you think about this mastering attempt", which I actually feel in 99% of cases the problems would be better solved during the mix.

Quoted for Emphasis

there is no right or wrong way to master a track.
and no i dont have a black belt.

quote:

Originally posted by MegaMan there is no right or wrong way to master a track. and no i dont have a black belt.

I disagree. Mastering is a much more technical process that involves alot less artistic decisions. There definitely is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Good mastering engineers can explain in words everything they are doing whether it be an adjustment via EQ which they will know the frequency and the Q and be able to tell you that and know why they are doing it. They will know how much limiting needs to be applied to reach the K system standard. It is very much so a technical process that involves alot of experience and patience. They really just make your track up to the proper standards for a certain format. That is all they really should have to do. Many mastering engineers say don't put anything on your master but if you have some sort of artistic compression that you want to have as part of your mix, you don't leave that to the mastering engineer. Of course most people tend to go overboard which is why mastering engineers prefer that you don't but if you know what you want in the mix, the mastering process should really not change much at all. Think of it as a second opinion by someone that has more experience in knowing how something should sound. It does happen that a mastering engineer doesn't change anything. But what you are paying for is that consultation by a second set of very good ears.

I would say the job has changed a bit due to alot of shit mixes being made and the mixing engineer thinking the mastering engineer can fix it which they can and will and bill you every hour but that isn't really what they are supposed to be doing.

you're right MfB, mastering serves a purpose, you can't just swing-dick around....

if yur a skillfull pro you just need ears and the fans to come up to your level, some got it some dont and to be a good masterer you need them ears and natral soic skills is alls

what i really mean is that it varies from one expert to another, each will master at their best, based on their own abilities and knowledge.

therefore, if you compare a tune that lets say been mastered by 10 different sound engineers, you cant really say that this is a right way or a wrong way, only if one sounds better than the other or worse, based on hour own preference, therefor each mastering is its own unique way of of interpreting the tune and making appropriate subjective adjustments, sure some of the rules are universal, but bringing your own unique flavor is what its all about, because its a school of musical science and psychoacoustic art blended together.

it is also one field which is the most often neglected in musical industry, because its the most conceptual and because it unifies all aspects of musical knowledge.

And that's the last time I try mixing with a headcold heheh.

Sneaky suspicion says that sinus pressure = mix destroyer.

Trying this again in hopes of a better outcome. (There's no master this time )

http://soundcloud.com/theterranastronaut/summer-snow

quote:

Originally posted by theterran And that's the last time I try mixing with a headcold heheh. Sneaky suspicion says that sinus pressure = mix destroyer. Trying this again in hopes of a better outcome. (There's no master this time ) http://soundcloud.com/theterranastronaut/summer-snow

Spectrically it's really well-balanced, but I still find your instruments are too low quality.

Also there's just too much compression on the piano at 2:59 for my taste.

I have a few opinions structure- and arrangement-wise, but maybe I should leave those to someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

im starting to like the track hehe. fuck. ill give some feedback on the mixdown when ive listened through my monitors, but it seems its alot better already. its still out of control though, i hear levels going up and down, and various HPF on some of the synths and drums, killing some of the energy. i think u use too much automation on levels and filters or eqs but i cant really know this, its just what it sounds like. or some compressor is out of control. its very clear if you compare 1:20 with 1:40 and then again at 3:20 with 3:40.

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