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-- How did you learn how to produce?
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Self taught.

Courses - I'd question the value of them now. To be able to make sonic sex takes a certain approach to the work, more than anything else.

My aim is now to refine and define my own sound which I am 100% committed to no matter how frustrating at times!

I'm trying not to mimick anjunabeats etc, because that just ain't my sound but it's taken some time for me to understand this.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Exactly how do you plan on making that correlation, particularly from this unscientifc and inadequate poll? And, what are your criteria for defining something as subjective and arguably meaningless as "good", who will be the judge, and how do you plan on ascertaining whether you're listening to a given producer's best work, worst work, or somewhere in between?

I was going to use my psychic powers

This isn't a research project i was just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Maybe it's Maybelline.

Haha

The poll isn't really worth anything but I taught myself EDM production and went to school for Audio/Broadcast/Producing.

My first forays (apart from crap casio keyboards) in anything production was probably making dubs of Dad's songs on cassette for him (around 8 years old). Now, I'm writing this I suddenly have a weird "connected the dots feeling" about maybe why I ended up as a Audio/Boraodcast engineer.

Anyway, from DJ'ing I got in attempting production on wave editors then just playing around with sequences. Went to Audio Engineering school which seriously opened my eyes and knowledge base, but as it was so oldschool (in a good way - real studio engineering, mic techniques, live sound, electronics, classic studio production techniques etc) I felt lacking for EDM production.

Couple of years later went to a London based part time course to learn software techniques. Since then, I just don't feel the need for lessons for anything technical.

However, then working in studios was another HUGE leap (as going to engineering school was) as I thought I was pretty much there, and I realised on the first day, I was clearly not even on the ladder, let alone the bottom rung, compared to the guys I had to assist. At least you learn damn fast in that environment.

So now, I'd say it was a progressive combination of school and self learning, and each one helped as the other reached a plateau.

I'll doubt I'll ever take a lesson again, unless it's for music theory.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelHaber This isn't a research project i was just curious.

You ignored the most important part of my post (i.e., regarding the all-important experience factor). But, whatever, fair enough.

As for me, I read a LOT, have had some formal training, learned my way around most audio processors and mixing through decades of work as a live audio technician, learn some more by vids/online tutorials, forums like this, etc. So, I guess my answer is "all of the above, and then some."

Regardless, my music still sucks and is considered cheesy by most trance producers.

I downloaded a cracked copy of FL Studio, opened the program, and started clicking things to see what they did. I read some stuff on the internet too. Then I switched to Ableton Live and learned a lot more stuff by clicking more buttons.

that's it really

I'd like to see more people not focus so much on learning producing, as much as learning music.

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. I'd like to see more people not focus so much on learning producing, as much as learning music.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

opportunity cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Why does it have to be one or the other?

Not so much one way, but I think too many people try to learn music producing from a producing perspective and not a music perspective.

Scales, keys, chord progressions, harmony, counterpoint, musical style, musical motifs and etc...,

vs.

compression, EQing, dynamics, sidechaining, filtering, mastering, etc...

Most producers hit a brick wall because after they master producing, they realize they have limited musical understanding

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Why does it have to be one or the other?

A jack of all trades...is master of none.

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. Not so much one way, but I think too many people try to learn music producing from a producing perspective and not a music perspective. Scales, keys, chord progressions, harmony, counterpoint, musical style, musical motifs and etc..., vs. compression, EQing, dynamics, sidechaining, filtering, mastering, etc... Most producers hit a brick wall because after they master producing, they realize they have limited musical understanding

Good point.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux A jack of all trades...is master of none.

Not always true (although it is most of the time, sadly).

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. Not so much one way, but I think too many people try to learn music producing from a producing perspective and not a music perspective. Scales, keys, chord progressions, harmony, counterpoint, musical style, musical motifs and etc..., vs. compression, EQing, dynamics, sidechaining, filtering, mastering, etc... Most producers hit a brick wall because after they master producing, they realize they have limited musical understanding

Hahaha.

For the last few years, I've been pretty much writing the same song and it's kind of a wake up call to realize that I really need to change it up and expand my skills.

Look at people like Tyas who pretty much write the same song over and over. It's no wonder producers like to switch genres.

Same hihat rhythm, same mode, same BPM, same arpeggio, same 4 to the floor pattern, same structure, pretty much the same song with a few minor tweaks and a gloss over of modern sound design....

You keep doing the same thing over and over, and your creative head will cave in...

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Same hihat rhythm, same mode, same BPM, same arpeggio, same 4 to the floor pattern, same structure, pretty much the same song with a few minor tweaks and a gloss over of modern sound design.... You keep doing the same thing over and over, and your creative head will cave in...

I know right?

Also with regards to the Musicality vs. technicality...Both should be required for success amirite? I find alot of very boorish tracks with great engineering...and alot of good tracks with shitty mixing...neither of which I'd really want to listen to.

Just like any instrument too...Musical aspect vs. technical...especially stringed instruments...

And a jack of all trades whom naturally grasps w/e they do at an average level (compared to anyone else doing said thing) can also choose to specialize into something can they not? Just have to push that one thing further instead of giving up and moving on once you're bored.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Also with regards to the Musicality vs. technicality...Both should be required for success amirite? I find alot of very boorish tracks with great engineering...and alot of good tracks with shitty mixing...neither of which I'd really want to listen to.

Ignoring music professionals and snobs, people don't care about sound quality. People still go to bar to listen to live music, and people still go to raves with crappy sound systems. People rip off songs from Youtube/radio streams and play that back while they DJ.

Before I thought it was 70/30, but I think it's more like this:

Song Writing - 95%

Mixing/Mastering - 0-5%

have to disagree.

when it comes to EDM, it is all about production and groove. You can make a good career without ever having a single chord. Your time is better spent on learning how to make things groove and work on a dance floor than spending time on theory. This is from someone that knows everything there is to know about theory. It just isn't important nor salient in EDM.

I suppose what i'm saying is that all big producers that have come along haven't really known anything about theory. Deadmau5 , Wolfgang Gartner , Eric Prydz ....

There is the basics which takes a few weeks to learn. Just listen to music. Of course realize that i'm prescribing this as someone that wants to produce dance. If you decide you want to be a full time contract producer in the mainstream, you won't stand a chance as you will have to be able to do any sort of music and that requires alot of practice and time. But for EDM, waste of time.

It's all a moot point. Most EDM producers are never going to be convinced that they need to learn an instrument, or improve their music skills, or imagine that there are people who actually make music without one hand on the mouse and the other hand in their own pants.

I think a much more interesting question would be: how did you learn to reproduce?

- Self taught
- Live lessons
- Online course
- Other

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I think a much more interesting question would be: how did you learn to reproduce?

5th grade sex ed video...

I think of most things producers do as song writing:

sound/loop selection
adding delay
modulation
writing chords/melo/rhythms
ARRANGEMENT
SC Comp

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Regardless, my music still sucks and is considered cheesy by most trance producers.

Dave, I've noticed you make this same comment a few times. I once said a track of yours had some cheese sounds but from what I gather your more into a pop / dance sound?

My 2 boys listen to all commercial pop and what one might term more 'cheese' sounds are all over those tracks. At thier school disco yesterday cheese was oozing, but those tracks are very popular.

My kids and I'd say a great bulk of the 'non dance' population can engage more readily with what dance people might frame as cheese.

Perhaps some of us dance nerds are too far up our own creative arseoles!

Your quality is way better than mine for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. etc... Most producers hit a brick wall because after they master producing, they realize they have limited musical understanding

It is'nt about musical understanding, afterall there are millions of classical trained msuicians out there, so no shortage of those with that skill set, no, for me it's about original creativity just as with any art.

The number one tech house track on audio jelly has no melody. I was browsing all new tech mhouse releases there Thursday, and no one in my office noticed / reacted, but when the number 1 track came on they suddenly started nodding - THAT THERE IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, for me at least. The #1 track is very sparse with no melo but it'scombination of 'production'and grove got the office nodding - go figure!

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad have to disagree. when it comes to EDM, it is all about production and groove. You can make a good career without ever having a single chord. Your time is better spent on learning how to make things groove and work on a dance floor than spending time on theory. This is from someone that knows everything there is to know about theory. It just isn't important nor salient in EDM.

Spot on.

People who think the production side is not so important are wrong.
I'm not taling 'quality' per see, no, what I mean by prodcution is the endeavour of 'delivery'. That is to say, gift wrapping your sounds in such a way as they cause the listener to involuntary start moving or envoke some other response other than distain or apathy.

Saying people go to live music so production is low ranking completely misses the point that a live experience is a completely different entity and people go with a different set of expectations compared to browsing beatport.

Also originality is absolutely key now, where there exists an ocean of new releases. Grabbing the attention is vital.
I can make my mind up on a track in 2 seconds flat when browsing new releases - indeed many consumers make these quick decisions.

I hate just about everything I've ever made, but I am getting close to where I want to be.

Of course we should make stuff 'we' like, as people are always saying, but on the ohjter hand if you ignore your consumers you won't necessarily engage them. The chef who never bothers to talk to his diners will probably fail.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler It is'nt about musical understanding, afterall there are millions of classical trained msuicians out there, so no shortage of those with that skill set, no, for me it's about original creativity just as with any art. The number one tech house track on audio jelly has no melody. I was browsing all new tech mhouse releases there Thursday, and no one in my office noticed / reacted, but when the number 1 track came on they suddenly started nodding - THAT THERE IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, for me at least. The #1 track is very sparse with no melo but it'scombination of 'production'and grove got the office nodding - go figure!

Funny you mention that, because that reminds me of Brad's contest. I know that Brad has his own criteria, but if you judge every track on its "dancability," there was one very clear winner. I wasn't sure of myself, so I asked two of my friends, "Which one had you finger tapping or nodding?" It was the same one for all three of us. I do not know why the majority of the forum is listening for other shit. All of that other shit does not matter if the groove blows.

have to disagree there. The best groove was on the track that had the lowest votes. Of course we aren't just judging that as it is quite subjective but I suppose from my experience as a studio player, I can confidently tell which one has the better groove and why.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad when it comes to EDM, it is all about production and groove. You can make a good career without ever having a single chord. Your time is better spent on learning how to make things groove and work on a dance floor than spending time on theory. This is from someone that knows everything there is to know about theory. It just isn't important nor salient in EDM.

#Truth.

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