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-- Wolf + Lamb's Zev Eisenberg on ditching chemo for natural therapies
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quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie As I've already said in other threads, it's not up to health care professionals to decide for another person that their decisions are dumb or not. It's extremely unethical, lol. edit: Sorry, I misunderstood all of what you said. Either situation is unethical. Coercion of any kind, EVEN of accepted medical approaches (if it's not what the patient wants), is unethical.

you�re still not understanding what im saying. Im not advocating coercion (of any kind). Just that you shouldn�t celebrate the sincere and deep lack of nous for people to make good and reasonable choices. Because it�s a rare day indeed when they can. I wonder how many idiots will read something like the OP and think �awesome, my cancer will go away if I just cut out the bad things in my life�, lol. this is the kind of decision-making that your average person is capable of making.

So, celebrate the right of the patient to make their own decisions all you want, but don�t champion the fact that they will make the right one (and no, making a decision for themselves is not a priori the �right one�).

Being in the medical field, do you really think its wise to ignore a doctor and subscribe to something completely untested that you read online?

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 Being in the medical field, do you really think its wise to ignore a doctor and subscribe to something completely untested that you read online?

It's not my job to subscribe to anything. It's my job to assess the risks and benefits of interventions and provide the client with that information so that they can choose how they want to proceed (it's called informed choice). With regard to alternative/complementary therapies, no - I don't have to do anything I feel is unsafe/harmful or that I don't feel comfortable doing. Furthermore, nurses don't just blindly do what doctors say. Doctors make mistakes too. Our job is to advocate for the client's best interests. So yeah, if through my own research I discovered that a doctor was doing something stupid, I would speak up about it.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you�re still not understanding what im saying. Im not advocating coercion (of any kind). Just that you shouldn�t celebrate the sincere and deep lack of nous for people to make good and reasonable choices. Because it�s a rare day indeed when they can. I wonder how many idiots will read something like the OP and think �awesome, my cancer will go away if I just cut out the bad things in my life�, lol. this is the kind of decision-making that your average person is capable of making. So, celebrate the right of the patient to make their own decisions all you want, but don�t champion the fact that they will make the right one (and no, making a decision for themselves is not a priori the �right one�).

No, you're the one missing the point. Lol.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie No, you're the one missing the point. Lol.

So explain it to me.

cool.

There's nothing I could say, because you don't value autonomy or self-determination. Your view of healthcare is extremely paternalistic. Yes, the "right" choice IS whatever decision a capable person makes, because it's THEIR CHOICE. Just because you don't agree with it, or think it's stupid/not in their best interests, doesn't make it wrong.


Lol..."good" and "reasonable" choices are whatever the fuck a (competent) particular person decides they are!!

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Just because you don't agree with it, or think it's stupid/not in their best interests, doesn't make it wrong.

No, but when that treatment doesn�t work, and they die because of said treatment, that makes it wrong. not morally wrong or a choice they should be prevented from making, just wrong as in 1+1=1000 wrong. this has nothing to do with paternalism, and everything to do with people making reasonable decisions from information provided by relevant experts, not BS they read on the web. Go to your doctor or your hospital, get advice from the experts, and if you wanna waste time with your crystals fuck off and stop wasting finite resources.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Lol..."good" and "reasonable" choices are whatever the fuck a (competent) particular person decides they are!!

nonsense. Good and reasonable choices are decided by outcomes.

While I think the right of a person to make his own medical choices should be acknowledged, I see no point in not calling a stupid choice a stupid choice. Or at least inform the patient that "Hey, forgoing conventional treatment for homeopathy [or whatever] thing might be your choice, and I respect that, but you should know that chances are it will do nothing to cure your cancer and you will die."

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN nonsense. Good and reasonable choices are decided by outcomes.

And desired outcomes are decided by the client.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie And desired outcomes are decided by the client.

Yeah, im sure �death� is a desired outcome for people who seek treatment (to get well)

Everyone defines wellness differently.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Everyone defines wellness differently.

Well, I would posit that �dead� is the opposite of �well�, but maybe that�s just me!

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Well, I would posit that �dead� is the opposite of �well�, but maybe that�s just me!

But when they die, they get to go to Heaven, which is the pinnacle of wellness.

An Eisenberg opting out of expensive medical treatments and going with the far cheaper alternative of "natural"...what are the odds of that.

loljews

Get better Zev!

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Exactly.

If someone equates �well� with �euthanized� I am fine with that (Even if my initial comment was quite obviously intended to mean �recover� �get well� �not be sick anymore� �not die�, which you well knew) and I would point out that there are a million scientifically supported methods of euthanasia that hasten death much more successfully than crystals. So, either way, BS medical treatments remain just that, WRONG.

quote:

Originally posted by bas An Eisenberg opting out of expensive medical treatments and going with the far cheaper alternative of "natural"...what are the odds of that. loljews Get better Zev!

DAMN JEWS!! *shakes fist*

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN So, either way, BS medical treatments remain just that, WRONG.

You can't say that though, that's exactly the fucking point. Because it depends on the context of the situation. Sure, in some instances it may be wrong, but in others it may not. You cannot say that it is wrong in ALL situations, because it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie You can't say that though, that's exactly the fucking point. Because it depends on the context of the situation. Sure, in some instances it may be wrong, but in others it may not. You cannot say that it is wrong in ALL situations, because it isn't.

That depends on what treatment we�re talking about. if we define �wrong� as �has absolutely no efficacy with regard to treating illnesses�, crystals are wrong all the time, prayer is wrong all the time, not vaccinating your children is wrong all the time, homeopathy is wrong all the time, reiki is wrong all the time. but again (except for vaccinations) I support the patient�s right to make these decisions and die happily in the hands of their faith healer. Not in a hospital of course, they can do that shit at home.

You're such an ass, lol.

Remember when we used to fight like this all the time? D'awwwwwww.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Remember when we used to fight like this all the time? D'awwwwwww.

Actually, no

I remember when I baited you by telling you that all nurses did was empty bed pans, which got you a little riled, but not as much as I would�ve liked. But that was about it

Dammit, we need to bring back the hate.

Your farts don�t stink! Yeah, take that!

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