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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby It sucks, but maybe people shouldn't take their kids out into the streets like that when its not safe. .

Or maybe the americans can stay in america and stop raping the world?

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I've talked with a number of Apache pilots/gunners about operations very close to this, and like any other combat job in the military you have to cope with the fact that you are killing people, otherwise you might get killed. Its a shitty job...

that is utter bullshit. inside an apache helicopter is about the safest place you can be in during a war.

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Originally posted by Znack In danger of unarmed non-combatants who are trying to rescue wounded? Oh yes, it is a realistic possibility. What would they do, throw medicine after the troops? Firstly, you apparently do not understand that it is us who are the aggressors here. We attacked a country - in this case, even based on a lie, but that does not matter. When you do attack, you simply can not afford to shoot people without being absolutely sure they've done something wrong. It is not okay to kill someone to be be on the safe side because they might have had weapons. It could have been if we defended our own country against an attack. Either you have completely overlooked these things, or you have the most insane, murderous mindset i have experience in a long time, and it would scare me that someone as bloodthirsty roams freely.

You are an idiot. It is war. The enemy doesn't stop and ask question, hell the take extreme measures to NOT make sure they are killing who they are after most of the time.

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Originally posted by Znack So now you are arguing that we must execute all strongly religious people because they might pose a danger one day?

Yes, that is exactly what I argued.

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Originally posted by Znack So you also think witch burnings in medieval times were good? They were legal. Torture of infidels? To keep slaves? It was all legal once. The law is irrelevant in this context. It is made by humans and is thus an expression of what some people consider to be right. What we are discussing here is exactly about that, if it is defensible that some people find it to be right. The argument of legality is circular. You really are just saying, because we do it, it is right to do it.

So then, who is right? Your interpretation of the law? Fuck off. Listen to Banora and quit making Denmark look stupid.

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Originally posted by dj_alfi that is utter bullshit. inside an apache helicopter is about the safest place you can be in during a war.

No. In a real war the attrition rate for combat helicopters would be incredibly high. Thats what these guys are trained for, the worst possible situation.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby No. In a real war the attrition rate for combat helicopters would be incredibly high. Thats what these guys are trained for, the worst possible situation.

Apaches can't be grouped in with other combat helicopters. It's like comparing a firecracker to a stick of dynamite.

Btw, What do you mean a "real war"?

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Originally posted by dj_alfi Apaches can't be grouped in with other combat helicopters. It's like comparing a firecracker to a stick of dynamite. Btw, What do you mean a "real war"?

...

I don't think you know shit about Apaches...

And by real war I mean a war with a high surface to air threat environment, cannon or missile. Attack helicopters are very capable, but in a heavy surface to air environment they'd be getting shot down left and right. If you take air cover out of the mix then they'd be even more vulnerable.

Look at even a country like Afghanistan where there is very good attack helicopter terrain. As soon as the insurgents in the 1980s Soviet invasion got their hands on MANPADS, Soviet Hinds began to take a serious hit. Once the air mobility of their troops and the support provided by the Hind was compromised the Soviets had a lot of trouble fighting a much weaker, smaller force.

The same goes for Apache, which is less armored and slower than the Hind, though it does have better sensors and weapons. They are susceptible to ground fire, especially in a combat environment like Iraq where there is very little terrain to hide amongst (the main tactic of attack copters).

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby ... I don't think you know shit about Apaches... And by real war I mean a war with a high surface to air threat environment, cannon or missile. Attack helicopters are very capable, but in a heavy surface to air environment they'd be getting shot down left and right. If you take air cover out of the mix then they'd be even more vulnerable. Look at even a country like Afghanistan where there is very good attack helicopter terrain. As soon as the insurgents in the 1980s Soviet invasion got their hands on MANPADS, Soviet Hinds began to take a serious hit. Once the air mobility of their troops and the support provided by the Hind was compromised the Soviets had a lot of trouble fighting a much weaker, smaller force. The same goes for Apache, which is less armored and slower than the Hind, though it does have better sensors and weapons. They are susceptible to ground fire, especially in a combat environment like Iraq where there is very little terrain to hide amongst (the main tactic of attack copters).

meh

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Originally posted by dj_alfi meh

There is a reason I don't have a life outside studying military shit... It's because I am good at it.

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Yeah, THATS the reason!

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I don't have a life

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Originally posted by dj_alfi Yeah, THATS the reason!

Yes. It is...

Just keep telling yourself that

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Originally posted by Znack No, you are not being realistic. It is not realistic to think that combat helicopter pilots, who themselves are not in any immediate danger, and therefore have plenty of time to think before they act, are not even doing anything wrong in assessing a van full of unarmed people trying to save dying people away from a battlefield are dangerous and must be killed. This has nothing to do with realism. And you think that is ... wrong? Quite the contrary. I do not in any way whatsoever want to make this sound like some one off occurrence. I have no idea where you get that from. I want a general focus on our own, or at least our allies, military behavior, so we as people can demand that they should behave better than those we are trying to call terrorists and "evil ". But it is also a total contradiction on your part. First you claim that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable and understandable, and then you can easily see it is something "shit"- direct quote - but thinks that one is focusing too much on one event?

You applying your civilian code of ethics to a war is an exercise in futility. What do you expect in war? That only enemy combatants get killed? It's like saying cars are bad because people get in car accidents. How about, not using a car, or, going to war? Then nobody dies.

Znacks obviously a troll, he posts about how muslims are evil and raping everyone in sweden, then talks about how horrible it is that terrorists and insurgents get killed in Iraq...

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Znacks obviously a troll, he posts about how muslims are evil and raping everyone in sweden, then talks about how horrible it is that terrorists and insurgents get killed in Iraq...

lol you're so fucking dense. you've never even been to sweden. i went over there now during the holidays and it's actually worse than how pat condell described it.

so wake up and brush the snuff out of your hair, man! the islamist will rape your grandma first!

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Originally posted by dj_alfi lol you're so fucking dense. you've never even been to sweden. i went over there now during the holidays and it's actually worse than how pat condell described it. so wake up and brush the snuff out of your hair, man! the islamist will rape your grandma first!

I think you missed the point he was trying to make...

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Originally posted by Spam I think you missed the point he was trying to make...

I think you missed the point I was trying to make...

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Originally posted by dj_alfi I think you missed the point I was trying to make...

If you thought you were making one, I guess I did.

This thread now is about how awesome the Apache is... Despite the over all drawbacks of combat attack helos...

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Originally posted by Spam If you thought you were making one, I guess I did.

And I thought I was the one who had trouble reading between the lines.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi And I thought I was the one who had trouble reading between the lines.

Well on that, we can agree.

I'd say its the same old american way, shoot anything, if its your own people, if its civilians, if its allies... anything really...

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin How about, not using a car, or, going to war? Then nobody dies.

That's just procrastinating. Everybody dies, it's just a matter of when and how.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin What do you expect in war? That only enemy combatants get killed?

I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country.
Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong - but we goddamn have a responsibility to do as much as we possibly can, even if it means exposing ourselves to a slightly greater risk.

If you want to compare with cars, i say, that car accidents can always occur, but we must nevertheless do all we possibly can to make cars safe, while you say since cars still invariably sometimes have mistakes, we might as well just drop all ethical considerations and make them highly unsafe and dangerous.

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Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in once power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country.

One of the perversities of war that I find most amusing is that the harder you try to avoid killing innocent people, the more innocent people you end up killing.

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