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-- Producing in MONO , what why how !?
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quote:

Originally posted by music2dance2 Those 2 would be the least offending, if offending at all. Other tracks in the stereo field is what you are checking mainly. Mixing with just headphones is fine it all depends on how well you know the phones you are using and quality of headphones.

Go to the basic tutorials and check which components of a song you are encouraged to mono and keep centered, and then get back to me. (I'll save you some time...it's your kick and bass) This actually deals with the cone in each speaker being out of phase and the sound canceling itself out mid-air.

With regards to taking a stereo field to mono and checking in headphones, that deals with the DAW/Stereo to mono summing each side's wave and then converting to mono, and you'll lose sound the same way, but digitally, not mechanically.

So I suppose I see the confusion.

And no, you are supposed to mix mainly with speakers/monitors and use cans as a reference...(or use them so you don't piss off your roomate at 1 am when you can't help yourself lol)

I have a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 pros and would still make sure to reference off a pair of good monitors before committing to a mixdown.

Headphones will not give you any accurate info as to how the sound translates through the air nor how each side of the stereo field interacts with itself. You cannot identify external stereo phasing problems with headphones. On top of that, it's well known that headphones will overly exaggerate the width of your stereo field as well.

This is basic mixing technique, and I feel confident in saying that you are in fact wrong

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Headphones will not give you any accurate info as to how the sound translates through the air nor how each side of the stereo field interacts with itself.

Some would argue that the reflections you get will vary between rooms, so the variations through the air can be misleading... it's similar to the idea of trying to use monitors with as flat a response as possible because any frequency curve your monitors might have will differ from the curve another set of speakers offers.

But I'm just playing devil's advocate really, I agree with everything else you've said... sort of.

quote:

Originally posted by music2dance2 Those 2 would be the least offending, if offending at all.

You're both right and wrong in a way


Low frequencies are more susceptible to cancelling each other out and causing phasing effects. But at low frequencies, you are less likely to notice.

Higher frequencies can also cancel each other out - especially if you're using any stereo width enhancers, as these just apply a slight phase difference to one channel, which will clash with each other when mixed down to a mono channel. So I'd steer clear of them. But any sound could potentially clash with another if you get unlucky.

You don't have to keep your kick and bass centred... it tends to feel more 'balanced' but it's not a hard and fast rule. It hasn't got much to do with phasing effects in a mono mix.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox Some would argue that the reflections you get will vary between rooms, so the variations through the air can be misleading... it's similar to the idea of trying to use monitors with as flat a response as possible because any frequency curve your monitors might have will differ from the curve another set of speakers offers. But I'm just playing devil's advocate really, I agree with everything else you've said.

yeah also had to do some of my own clarification. being nitpicked is obnoxious ;D I just couldn't help musing that some of the boorish stuff I learned in school actually applies to things I like doing...anyway.

I was also assuming a theoretical 0 reflection...as if the monitors were delivering directly to each ear. But in all honesty that shouldn't matter. Physically it's the cones being out of phase that should produce the effect, so any out of phase sound bouncing around would cancel out...If they're perfectly lined up with each ear you'll simply have less phasing I imagine...

I wouldn't imply that higher freq. sounds wouldn't either, just assumed that they were less susceptible to it or less noticeable. I just notice that putting a bass into stereo becomes more problematic in terms of mixing, and might be more affected by phase cancellation. So mono + centering it would give both the added benefit of not mucking around with phase cancellation at all, and providing balance.

I simply remember seeing an article relating to phase cancellation that mentioned it as a good reason to mono/center your bass/kick. *shrug*

Not sure how/why cones would be out of phase due to stereo imaging, and maybe a more knowledgeable TA'er could elaborate/correct.

I've added a bit more above

There are various things that can cause phase differences between the two channels. They all boil down to different things happening on each channel which you don't realise end up clashing when the channels are combined.

This could be an effect designed to artificially give width: stereo enhancers, some reverb plugins, etc

Or it could be sounds which just happen to clash because of the nature of their waveforms. Using 2 synths (particularly if it's 2 instances of the same softsynth) with very similar sounds at similar frequencies can cause it. Similar percussion sounds can cause it: some hi-hat samples for example are derived from others, maybe with some compression or EQ applied, so might sound quite different but actually contain a similar set of frequencies at a slightly different phase.

If you've panned these away from each other - you might have done it to avoid a clash or you might just have done it anyway - you could be hiding the fact that they'll clash when brought back down to a mono track.

Also seems like you can incur a reduction in bass volume when going from a stereo bass to a mono bass especially in clubs from some reading. I'm sure the reason for mono'ing your kick/bass is primarily based on balance like you said and less to do with phasing...Although I still feel that higher energy, lower-frequency waves wold be more apt to do it. But alas it ends up being because you're simply sharing the loads on each speaker assuming stereo to achieve more headroom.

Pulled this from a mixing article : "now, the word is subs should be in mono. Why? two reasons : almost all large live systems are mono only, this means that putting your sub in stereo can create a loss of volume if you have a lazy soundman who bridges the left instead of crossing both sides for true mono. The other reason is because of psychoaccoustics, we cant accurately pinpoint the location of tones that fall into the low bass ranges, because we dont hear these tones, we feel thier frequency physically. yes, it tricks your brain into percieving touch as hearing, but, the fact is, thats whats happening, so panning has very little value on low rnages."

Also found a VST that will take an instrument and break it apart into mono/stereo depending on desired frequencies. Probably badass for dubstep purposes.

Always fun/enlightening being wrong (and quite blazed)

Also your tracks can be inphase, but the system out of phase, depening on listening position, frequency. Also there are things as standing waves etc.

REALLY GUYS< FOR MOST OF YOU MONO SHOULD BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND, LEARN TO DELIVER DECENT MIXES IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie REALLY GUYS< FOR MOST OF YOU MONO SHOULD BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND, LEARN TO DELIVER DECENT MIXES IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT

knowin' more don't hurt tho eh?

True, but really, if people want to improve

- learn how build an arrangement
- learn how to use EQ
- learn how dynamics work
- learn about shaping them with compression
- then about commercial volume

There is so much other stuff that already goes wrong in several tracks that mono really should be the least of the concerns.

It's like taking your first swimming lesson in your local swimming pool and worry about decompression desease

I thought club systems just were mono below a certain frequency? Working exclusively in mono doesn't make any sense to me, because it's impossible to work with reverbs and delays to a certain point. Referencing is always good.

^^^ Subs are uni directional, so they're always mono. Hence why its best to mix that way using a linear phase EQ on your master channel. That way you never get unpleasant surprises. The question here is about preserving mono compatability, which is important for situations when someone is listening to a track through a clock radio, or is standing in a position on the dancefloor where the two channels are out of phase.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I think it's fine to keep it a mix of mono and stereo channels, but doing regular checks in mono on the master output to make sure things don't disappear.

This is true, although I tend to think you should limit your stereo channels to less than 50% of your total channels before sends and effects etc. In other words, no more half your tracks should be stereo at all before you've panned them, effected them, and sent them to reverbs etc. Otherwise I think you just get a washy mix with no focal points. RANN probably knows heaps better than me, but thats just what I try to do.

Raphie, panning is a crucial element of delivering decent mixes IMO. Its more important than EQ, and FAR more important than compression IMO.

panning implies STEREO, so doesn't adhere to MONO.
I am sorry i sound a bit aggetated, but these kind of threads, pop up here all the time. "yeah my bass sounds much better now i use the mono maker" etc. EVER thought about panning laws and how much LOUDER a summed mono signal is compared to a stereo one.

Really most people here have no clue, don't bother to learn the basics and read and explore, they just let their mind wander free with stupid theories and hearsay.......

An overall mix can be in stereo while keeping individual channels in mono. I'm probably not expressing myself that well, but thats what I'm talking about. most individual channels should be in mono, even if they later get panned out into the stereo spectrum in the final mix.

Basses SHOULD be in mono, and do sound louder. Regardless of pan laws, what you see on the meters doesn't lie, and a centred mono signal will sound more up front and in your face than a panned signal, even before you take into account phase issues and sub bass unidirectionality.

quote:

Originally posted by music2dance2 Those 2 would be the least offending, if offending at all. Other tracks in the stereo field is what you are checking mainly. Mixing with just headphones is fine it all depends on how well you know the phones you are using and quality of headphones.

You're actually both right. Kick and bass are most important to be in mono because on most systems, the sub isn't in stereo, so they'll cancel each other out. Luckily, they're usually quite centred, because kick samples etc rarely have much information on the side channels. Basses are a bit worse, but the worst offender is actually pads, because they tend to use so much unison (if you use presets) and everyone's gotten used to that sound. Because of that, a lot of pads suffer from phase cancellation if they're put througha mono system for some reason.

So while its less likely your mids will be run in mono, its generally more fatal if they are. Unless you check for mono compatability, like you should be

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips An overall mix can be in stereo while keeping individual channels in mono. I'm probably not expressing myself that well, but thats what I'm talking about. most individual channels should be in mono, even if they later get panned out into the stereo spectrum in the final mix. Basses SHOULD be in mono, and do sound louder. Regardless of pan laws, what you see on the meters doesn't lie, and a centred mono signal will sound more up front and in your face than a panned signal, even before you take into account phase issues and sub bass unidirectionality.

Then we are saying the same thing

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie but these kind of threads pops up all the time

tell me about it lol. i just keep a notepad file with all my answers and copypaste them into every thread lately.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Really most people here have no clue, don't bother to learn the basics and read and explore, they just let their mind wander free with stupid theories and hearsay.......

Or maybe they do, they're just bored and are discussing random matters on a forum.

Don't be the "you can't discuss anything" police...Plus, I'm sure the basics have been beaten to death, or if people discuss them they get rebuked and sent to the tutorials section because you've seen their newbie question a billion times...Hell, I learned a ton from the thread I made regarding mastering, and it cleared up 99% of my misconceptions about it.

Anyway, the thread was still enjoyable to read, and learning about extra things that can affect your music could never be bad...

Such a party pooper. :P

And it's already been said, basses sound louder in mono/center on a stereo system because the load is shared between the speakers and direction is known not to matter.

Not to get in the who's right and wrong arguement, as some have said we both have a point. It just seems that when you check in mono, kick and bass is obviously checked but they rarely have any phasing issues, going from experience. I find leads/synths lines etc are the main culprit. I guess I think this was as I always have those in mono anyway, so when the mono check is done I'm not looking to hear those to elements 1st.

As for using headphones, yes its always best to have monitors to mix and not solely headphones, I have both myself, but its not impossible as many producers do produce solely out of their studio's and make tracks for the dancefloor using headphones, i.e if on the road/on tour dj-ing. Its not an ideal situation but it can be done if you know your gear well enough.

On a note about whats been discussed before blah blah blah, if the thread is a productive one and doesnt decend into something off topic or a great huge argument between the usual members on TA then its good.

There are some usual bits of information for people that are new to the subject and if you already know it then good for you.

Healtly discussion - all good in my book.

(

quote:

Originally posted by music2dance2 Not to get in the who's right and wrong arguement, as some have said we both have a point. It just seems that when you check in mono, kick and bass is obviously checked but they rarely have any phasing issues, going from experience. I find leads/synths lines etc are the main culprit. I guess I think this was as I always have those in mono anyway, so when the mono check is done I'm not looking to hear those to elements 1st. As for using headphones, yes its always best to have monitors to mix and not solely headphones, I have both myself, but its not impossible as many producers do produce solely out of their studio's and make tracks for the dancefloor using headphones, i.e if on the road/on tour dj-ing. Its not an ideal situation but it can be done if you know your gear well enough.

The "you're wrong" thing was a bit of a troll sorry :P

In reality it's less about who's right or wrong but more about "Did you learn something new."

I've tried mixing solely on my Beyers once I understood them, and the mixes turn out decent. Still always best to reference off as much as conveniently available.

I also found this thread amusing because I had the same discussion with my friend who helps run a rock recording studio in L.A. And he flamed the shit out of me for saying that It's ok to mix with headphones. I actually find it easier to accurately place my percs with headphones rather than with monitors, not sure why but I always get better results that way.

I sometimes find these forums a little *too* serious and have fun cajoling those who get ragey about music. (not implying you do, naturally, it was more cannabis induced cajoling this time )

Oh and most of what anyone talks about around here can be found on google nowadays...I think that some simply forget what forums are for.

Having some sounds contrast, stereo wise, give a really cool vibe to a track

For example, start off with mono percussion, then bring in a big high hat with a stereo field sounds really awesome.

Rule of thumb I always work with is to make sounds more MONO rather than making the stereo image larger.

Re: (

quote:

Originally posted by theterran The "you're wrong" thing was a bit of a troll sorry :P In reality it's less about who's right or wrong but more about "Did you learn something new." I've tried mixing solely on my Beyers once I understood them, and the mixes turn out decent. Still always best to reference off as much as conveniently available. I also found this thread amusing because I had the same discussion with my friend who helps run a rock recording studio in L.A. And he flamed the shit out of me for saying that It's ok to mix with headphones. I actually find it easier to accurately place my percs with headphones rather than with monitors, not sure why but I always get better results that way. I sometimes find these forums a little *too* serious and have fun cajoling those who get ragey about music. (not implying you do, naturally, it was more cannabis induced cajoling this time ) Oh and most of what anyone talks about around here can be found on google nowadays...I think that some simply forget what forums are for.

Its all good man, I agree on the perc's though, when I'm done using my monitors and switch to headphones you can often find that some of the panning is way too much and the track can sounds lop-sided which isnt a nice feeling, something you dont always pick up using monitors. Its all down to practice and what you know best as I'm sure there are producers who dont even use headphones to test their mix.

Haha as for forum advice, yes google is indeed your friend but its always nice to get opinions from others who you speak to on a daily basis (who understand your queries that is)

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie panning implies STEREO, so doesn't adhere to MONO. I am sorry i sound a bit aggetated, but these kind of threads, pop up here all the time. "yeah my bass sounds much better now i use the mono maker" etc. EVER thought about panning laws and how much LOUDER a summed mono signal is compared to a stereo one. Really most people here have no clue, don't bother to learn the basics and read and explore, they just let their mind wander free with stupid theories and hearsay.......

Fuck. I've been trying to avoid this but here goes, and I have a feeling it's going to get juicy....

Not quite sure what you're trying to explain, but I think you're saying that mono summing affects levels of the volume of individual tracks ans their pan value are ignored.

While you're right to some extent, the specific nature depends on the panning law at hand;

If you're on a 0db (non compensated) panning law as a global or track specific setting then, yes, to a degree there will be a difference in from the levels of those tracks panned hard left or right when they are mono summed. It won't make a huge difference to those panned only small or even medium amounts (don't forget it's logarithmic) but it may for those with a lot of pan value.

However, and this is where it gets interesting, if you have you're panning law set to -3db compensated, the difference in all circumstances is negligable, meaning that if you set levels while in mono, then pan in stereo they should be very close and only need minor adjustments when back in stereo.

Now, back to the subject of mono monitoring:

To do it in a mthos of "good practise", get a basic mix in stereo to hear your sounds or at least work in stereo for the producing/arranging. Either save this project as another name (0.l etc) or boucne the audio file for refence. I think it's good to have an instinctive mix of the project to look back on at any point.

Then when you start the mixing process, start by:

1, make the master mono (via plugin or whatever your daw allows to do it) or hit the mono switch on your monior control.

2, Switch of one monitor, and face it directly.

3,Now that all the tracks are dead-center in terms of pan value, this will help in finding the appropriate frequency space for each instrument/sound. If you can hear all instruments loud and clear under these circumstances your EQing must be right in terms of frequency separation.

4, now switch back to Stereo and turn on the other monitor anbd resume normal monitoring and pan, effect and play with your knobs as desired.

5, to regular checks back to mono to make sure not too much is disappearing between the two whenever adjustments are made.

As a side note, if you're going to do this sort of mixing process or check, then IMO, you're better off using the -3db compensated panning law. This is because, at the 0db panning law, a doubling of power (from hard panned instruments switched to mono) leads to a +3 increase in db. So -3 db compensated law keeps the stuff in the middle from being twice as loud as the stuff on the sides when we sum to mono.

It will also avoid problems if ever you have to bounce to mono tracks when mixed with stereo tracks (don't ask).

Perfectly exlained RANN, we are in agreement, you just have more patience to write it all out.

can't we make some of these posts sticky or add them to the archive?

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Perfectly exlained RANN, we are in agreement, you just have more patience to write it all out. can't we make some of these posts sticky or add them to the archive?

Good Idea. I actually wish there was a Technical Sticky, which contains the in depth studd like monitor calibration, Panning laws, Mono Summing, etc. Hmmmm, maybe we should get some stuff together for Digi to post up.

I would also LOVE a "Monitor" sticky, as it gets asked without fail at least twice a month for as long as I can remember, and often the same answers are given.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Good Idea. I actually wish there was a Technical Sticky, which contains the in depth studd like monitor calibration, Panning laws, Mono Summing, etc. Hmmmm, maybe we should get some stuff together for Digi to post up. I would also LOVE a "Monitor" sticky, as it gets asked without fail at least twice a month for as long as I can remember, and often the same answers are given.

+1

"The newbies guide to Monitor shopping"

- Pros and Cons of "settling for less"
- Listen before you buy
- Monitors and the room you're putting them in

etc...

Although even with that...most people like to open up a thread to actually discuss it. Even with all of that info and reviews on google, it makes people feel better to know that they're buying something that everyone else deems as good. You'll be hard pressed to get rid of newbies starting up these kinda threads.

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