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-- E-Spectro ft Trox - You Call It Magic (EZ's Alice in Wonderland Mix)
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Originally posted by Raphie One either likes what i did with them (or hates it ) but there is nothing "wrong" with the vocals.

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Originally posted by Eddie Zilker The bottom line is that the vocals were sung to a different mix and fit that mix, according to its producer.

Never said there was. I even took the percussion loop, submitted with the remix pack and used it to make sure the tempo was set, correctly.

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Originally posted by Eddie Zilker If you didn't manipulate them, than they fit within the original content of the song that I completely dispensed with.

The thought that you didn't touch the vocals, in any way, had crossed my mind and I still concede your mix was spot on. I interpreted your suggestion of stretching them as a possibility that you might have, but my reasoning as to why you've found them lacking in my version stands.

but the percussion loop was in a different tempo AND sample rate than the vocals, so they could never be aligned one to the other, without time stretching (i also thought the loop sucked big time, as did the guitar)
to make it even more interesting the midi have been exported in yet another different tempo.

I'm merely saying that people who are used to just dragging loops and expect there DAW to sort it all out for them tempo wise, will have a tough one with this pack

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm trying to come up with two possibilities for why you've included such poor beats and bass. One is that you weren't really interested in how danceable this track is, which is where the Poe would come in. Because if this isn't really about being danceable, why is the kick drum the first, last and most prominent sound on the track? How does the percussion in this track accentuate the overall effect? Is the percussion really interesting and engaging enough to justify its constant presence in the track? The other possibility is you just can't really put together a funky groove. Just turn it up nice and loud and consider whether it makes you want to dance. There's a complete lack of bassline, which sucks the energy out of the track (meaning it lacks aforementioned drive) and denies you a key musical element the dancer responds to. I can sort of hearing it coming through early on in the track but it's still not any kind of bassline that makes me want to bob my head. I don't think you're so completely lacking in da funk that you'd seriously think this is an acceptable dancefloor bottom end. I had a similar issue with Superstition. I was going to ask why you'd bothered putting a constant bassline in, when the bass was so perfunctory and secondary. You seem to have a taste for tracks that comprise shuffly, vague breakbeat patterns and muddy or extremely uninteresting basslines, above which you have many more subtle elements trickling past, generating muted atmospheres that slowly evolve over the course of the track. I'm just struggling to figure out whether you just don't have any intrinsic sense of rhythm or whether you're putting these pointless rhythmic elements in for their own sake.

My intention with my bass lines, perhaps mistakenly as I understand the convention which places them more prominently in the mix and arrangement in dance music, is to provide a supporting strata to carry the rest of the elements. Even in songs, like "Tapestry" where the bass-line is clearly present (albeit minimalistic), my favorite dwelling space, creatively, resides in the upper mids to highs and it's typically where I begin work on the track. The ultimate goal is to have a perfectly balanced track where parts fit like a glove, the low-end drives the song, but the high end also carries a significant burden and keep things interesting.

I'll submit that it's not a failure of rhythmic sense but a failure to properly work a decent bass-line out of the corner I box myself into by doing a top down design. I'll still argue that it's wrong-headed of any producer to always start from the bottom up (or from any particular place, as a rule) but I think your perceptions of this are spot on and my next three songs, at least, will start from the bottom with particular emphasis on creating a better syncopation between the kick and the bass, which will be more noticeable in both presence and quantity, and then moving up to arrange the rest of the elements around those.

Another aspect of my producing, which is playing into your observations, is that I'm working out a methodology that allows me to make up for short-comings in processing power of my computer by offsetting the workload the CPU is put under by converting synthesizer and sampler phrases into samples and then importing those samples into Reason 3, where they're placed into more elaborate arrangements and put through additional processing. It's actually become more of than a simple work-around, as the process also offers some creative ability to trigger complete chords and phrases with infinite possibilities and flexibility. An example of this can be heard in the chord progression, first heard at the beginning of "Tapestry" which is played throughout the entire song. That's not me hitting the keys repeatedly, throughout the piece, but more, a method by which phrases are stacked.

That necessitated some working out, ahead of time, in order to achieve a coherent result with the chord progression. The downside of the new technique is that it's a new learning curve which requires a little technical mastery in order to achieve an artistic result. Hence, when you're remarking that I seem to be playing around in structure rather than with an intent, again, I concede, you're spot-fucking-on.

You caught me, dead to rights, in the middle of a learning curve, already neglecting some other important features.



Thank you, Jack.


EDIT to add, already.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie but the percussion loop was in a different tempo AND sample rate than the vocals, so they could never be aligned one to the other, without time stretching (i also thought the loop sucked big time, as did the guitar) to make it even more interesting the midi have been exported in yet another different tempo. I'm merely saying that people who are used to just dragging loops and expect there DAW to sort it all out for them tempo wise, will have a tough one with this pack

I had to truncate the percussion loop to get it seated correctly.

But, man, I couldn't stand it or the other loops, either.

My recommendation is you do another mix where you completely scrap the beats and do a weird dubbed-out ambient mix, making the most of the mood you've got going. The promise I see in your music is in the weirdly effective minimalist melodic elements you use. The amount of space you leave in your tracks is peaceful yet vaguely disconcerting, almost on the edge of agoraphobia. I understand what Cryophonik said about feeling as though a cat is about to jump on you. I get the vibe of being sat high up in a field staring up at distant thunderclouds: everything's peaceful now, but there's just that edge, that uneasiness. Reminds me of the more contemplative Plastikman material, or Jam & Spoon's "Hispanos In Space".

Again, I've got this vibe before in your work, but I don't think you've built on it enough because you're being held back by this loyalty to shitty breakbeats. I think you should ditch 'em and go for the ambient, the inert, the ultra-spatial. Embrace the paranoia. Creep me the fuck out.

I think that's excellent advise! you described that really well,

Eddie, your a star at painting athmospere, you now just nead to capitalize on it.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J My recommendation is you do another mix where you completely scrap the beats and do a weird dubbed-out ambient mix, making the most of the mood you've got going. The promise I see in your music is in the weirdly effective minimalist melodic elements you use. The amount of space you leave in your tracks is peaceful yet vaguely disconcerting, almost on the edge of agoraphobia. I understand what Cryophonik said about feeling as though a cat is about to jump on you. I get the vibe of being sat high up in a field staring up at distant thunderclouds: everything's peaceful now, but there's just that edge, that uneasiness. Reminds me of the more contemplative Plastikman material, or Jam & Spoon's "Hispanos In Space". Again, I've got this vibe before in your work, but I don't think you've built on it enough because you're being held back by this loyalty to shitty breakbeats. I think you should ditch 'em and go for the ambient, the inert, the ultra-spatial. Embrace the paranoia. Creep me the fuck out.

I'll think on the ambient idea, for this track, but I like it.

This track not-withstanding, atmospherics are something that I've actually been paying close attention to, lately, but I'm attached to the idea of combining them with rhythmic elements. The thought of just focusing on ambient while making music invokes a stifling sense of dread.

Granted they're not ideal, but what songs of mine best present their rhythm elements and why? In other words, what am I doing right?

Thus far you haven't been very clear on what your intentions are with the rhythmic side of the music. Why is it so important to you that beats form part of your music? I get dismayed when I hear electronic music that wants to be about ambience or atmospherics but just can't shake the reliance on a repetitive beat.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Thus far you haven't been very clear on what your intentions are with the rhythmic side of the music. Why is it so important to you that beats form part of your music? I get dismayed when I hear electronic music that wants to be about ambience or atmospherics but just can't shake the reliance on a repetitive beat.

I think it lacks something without beats. It's a drone without a pulse. It just feels hollow. The one ambient/drone track I made, while possibly formative, also left me uninspired.

My weaknesses, as I see them, with beats is a reliance on the rest of the song to carry progression that could probably be better carried forward in conjunction with progression in the rhythm section. It's probably a little too loopy and perhaps not complex enough.

I've been working on the atmospheric background because I think it enhances the over-all feel of the track but the rhythmic element is definitely key to my enjoyment of the process.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker I think it lacks something without beats. It's a drone without a pulse. It just feels hollow. The one ambient/drone track I made, while possibly formative, also left me uninspired. My weaknesses, as I see them, with beats is a reliance on the rest of the song to carry progression that could probably be better carried forward in conjunction with progression in the rhythm section. It's probably a little too loopy and perhaps not complex enough. I've been working on the atmospheric background because I think it enhances the over-all feel of the track but the rhythmic element is definitely key to my enjoyment of the process.

Someone like Owien is a master of ambient but all the rest for me just forms in my mind as a single samey entity. In the end I've heard it all a billion times, in films, on adds, in every garden centre, in every yoga class. Only a handful of ambient tunes stanbd out in history, and I can't remember how any of them goes in my head right now.

Classic 90's atmoshperic Drum and bass for me is when ambient gets exciting and far more mysterious and evvocative.

Doesn't really have the drive, it is indeed kind of bland. If you are going to use the dance drums, don't just use them "to use them", use them with effect. It's like using a dance drum kit without the dance music vibe or style or drive.

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Originally posted by Evolve140 Doesn't really have the drive, it is indeed kind of bland. If you are going to use the dance drums, don't just use them "to use them", use them with effect. It's like using a dance drum kit without the dance music vibe or style or drive.

So, basically, the samples which I meticulously fashioned from composites of drum stacks that I've previously used, sound like they came from a factory preset pattern?










Fucking ACE!

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Someone like Owien is a master of ambient but all the rest for me just forms in my mind as a single samey entity. In the end I've heard it all a billion times, in films, on adds, in every garden centre, in every yoga class. Only a handful of ambient tunes stanbd out in history, and I can't remember how any of them goes in my head right now. Classic 90's atmoshperic Drum and bass for me is when ambient gets exciting and far more mysterious and evvocative.

I think you're confusing chill out with ambient.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I think you're confusing chill out with ambient.

Are you saying Owien is chill-out?

I've no idea who Owien is, but I can't imagine anyone who doesn't just listen to Ministry Of Sound "Chill Out" compilations reducing the vast breadth of ambient music to "a single, samey entity".

Again, I don't want to appear harsh but there's no better way of putting this: your weakness is simply that you are very, very bad at percussion. There is nothing interesting about your beats or your basslines. After you asked me to list positives, I listened to every track on your Soundcloud account and not one of the bottom ends was interesting to me. I really don't see why you put them in every track, and your only answer has been that they add a nebulous, ineffable "something". It really does just seem like you've listened to so much dance music you just can't move past the idea that a track needs a loud, repetitive beat to feel complete.

Ambient music doesn't have to be beatless, or lacking a pulse. However, the important thing is that you actually design percussion to accentuate the track's ambience. Your tracks rely heavily on breakbeats, but why? You're reluctant to say you're writing dance music, but the breakbeat is a dance beat, a DJ's creation. You don't seem to have put any creative thought into your beats. This is one of the reasons I think you're so poor at it - because those beats don't have any purpose and so they don't create any effect. Hence the advice from Poe.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Again, I don't want to appear harsh but there's no better way of putting this: your weakness is simply that you are very, very bad at percussion.

I think you're trolling, dude. If you're not trolling, thanks. If you are, thanks. I get it. I hear you and even heard the Winter mixes and understand exactly what you're speaking to. It has been abundantly useful, but further pursuit, regarding your thesis, is unwarranted. I'm not sold and there is nothing you can say to sell me on it. I'm not going to be sucked into trying to explain to you the myriad reasons I think you're wrong. Trying to help you understand my thinking regarding the music I make at effort to defend it against your thesis is a monumental waste of time.








Meh.

I'm not trolling. You guys seem to have a strange idea of what constitutes "trolling". I'm going to these lengths because I actually see potential in you, and you generally talk a good game. If you were some random kid who'd posted a shitty track I wouldn't even bother replying, or checking out any more of that kid's music. And I know that on any forum where amateurs share their creative efforts, there's always a severe deficit of people willing to be genuinely critical.

You've got your defence mechanisms: taste is subjective, you're still learning and so you don't expect things to sound perfect, you haven't got it quite right technically yet, I'm a troll... With all that in mind, why not take this opportunity to talk about the creative thinking behind your music? You answer most queries and criticisms with technical talk. How about some artist talk?

EDIT: Don't really understand what you're getting at with the Winter mix, either.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not trolling. You guys seem to have a strange idea of what constitutes "trolling". I'm going to these lengths because I actually see potential in you, and you generally talk a good game. If you were some random kid who'd posted a shitty track I wouldn't even bother replying, or checking out any more of that kid's music. And I know that on any forum where amateurs share their creative efforts, there's always a severe deficit of people willing to be genuinely critical. You've got your defence mechanisms: taste is subjective, you're still learning and so you don't expect things to sound perfect, you haven't got it quite right technically yet, I'm a troll... With all that in mind, why not take this opportunity to talk about the creative thinking behind your music? You answer most queries and criticisms with technical talk. How about some artist talk? EDIT: Don't really understand what you're getting at with the Winter mix, either.

I'm looking at the way you came into the thread in conjunction with your recent foray into the production studio, when I'm thinking you're trolling. I'm having trouble reconciling your recent behavior with your stated intent. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, Jack, but to say that we have a rapport I would put faith in is dubious. When I've tried to engage you on TA, in the past few months, I've been granted a begrudging cynicism which seems to consider all the reasons an idea I've proposed to be incorrect before it accepts it at face value; let alone considers one reason my idea might be correct. Furthermore, you're suggesting a radical change in the way I make music, stating that you've heard everything, when there has been no feedback offered prior, that would give weight to your suggestion.

I think you know I deplore intellectual dishonesty and I'm all for having a discussion about what my artistic intent is. I'm certain that you see I've recognized your capacity to discuss music and the validity of your insight. Your approach, however, leaves much to be desired and your position, however you've chosen to support it, is so radical that in conjunction with everything I've read to this point, I'm finding myself quite reluctant to discuss much of anything with you when you seem so eager to utilize such discussion for purposes it wasn't intended.

You seem to be suggesting that I do without a prominent rhythm but prominent rhythm is one of the aspects I like about dance music. It's one of the reasons I like doing what I do and, essentially, I'm looking at it as part of the totality. Without rhythm, the music is stripped. There were some selections in your Winter mix which pointed to some minimalist and chillout ideas I think might be pertinent when you're speaking to this. There were some breakbeats in certain tracks which illustrated a connection to the rest of the music, opposing mine, which seem to be operating independently.

Are you making dance music, then? Earlier you seemed to shy away from agreeing to that.

Yes and no, if that makes any sense. I tend to think of it as an almost autistic hybrid, at this point. My whole approach has been to utilize the rhythmic motion but combine that with a top-down attention to the upper registers. Where dance really seems to place emphasis on the bass-line as a leading element, I tend to regard it as utilitarian; a crutch for the focus of the leading elements which I play with.

Consequently, what you're hearing is the song built in the upper registers with a bass-line trying to support that. In Taxi Driver Redux, that approach became especially problematic, but it's an excellent example of a track built from the top down, as well.

I hear the music which is strictly dance and am not seeking to emulate it. It's rather that I'm heavily influenced by its vibe.


Assuming you haven't heard them, yet:

http://soundcloud.com/theunendingquartet


I'm pretty sure this is Owen/Owien, who was referred to, earlier, in this thread by Mr. Butler.

Yeah, I thought as much. I still recommend you cut it out for a track and just try and make the most of your atmospherics. Listen to a lot of minimal and dub, get an idea of the use of space and minimalism in percussion to create atmosphere and effect, the same way you make effective, atmospheric top-ends.

Perhaps after that go all out in the opposite direction to make a track all about a danceable clubby groove. When you've spent some time in the extremes you'll probably have a much better idea of how to make them work together.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Yeah, I thought as much. I still recommend you cut it out for a track and just try and make the most of your atmospherics. Listen to a lot of minimal and dub, get an idea of the use of space and minimalism in percussion to create atmosphere and effect, the same way you make effective, atmospheric top-ends. Perhaps after that go all out in the opposite direction to make a track all about a danceable clubby groove. When you've spent some time in the extremes you'll probably have a much better idea of how to make them work together.

I'm going to do that. I'm thinking one dubby, minimal, but harmonic and atmospheric, one strictly or dominantly percussive, and then finish it out with something entirely different.

I looove this so much!

The vocals are perfect and the track is brooding and eerie.

Almost deep hous-ey.

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