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quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay black people don't like fried chicken more than other races???

Jews don't like money more than other races?

no that one is so true.

Simon Reynolds has written quite a bit about how black musicians are often interested in material displays of status.He has a whole chapter in his book Energy Flash discussing the social context behind the emergence of jungle in the early 90s which is well worth a read. He's also written a lot about hip-hop in many sources, and has used Marxism and other critical theory to explore hip-hop culture.

Reynolds has argued that mid-90s drum 'n bass with its obsession with jazz and live instrumentation was attempting to connote up-market "classiness", a very different methodology to hip-hop but the same basic aim. I think the idea is very simple: a lot of black music, particularly hip-hop and drum 'n bass, has its origins in urban poverty, a world in which material wealth is of upmost concern. You don't have to just look at black culture to see poor people everywhere delight in shows of wealth - just look at white British chav culture with its cheap bling and fake designer clothes. To people who have no money, wealth is the ultimate fantasy.

This isn't inherently a black thing, it just so happens that important black musicians of the last century were mostly very poor. That in itself is down to obvious social conditions. Reynolds also points out that 90s drum 'n bass prided itself in being "black music" even though a large percentage of the producers and listeners have always been white. In the drum 'n bass underground, he claims, "blackness" is not about race but about social class and background.

Or, as Jay-Z put it: "Critics say he's money, cash, hoes - I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those?"

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Egads, n- not - not RACISM! Anything but that! Step off it. It's fucking racism. It is. There exist differences between people. He's not drumming up some manifesto on how we should stamp out some culture or another, but attempting to research if there exists any data to support one of the many whys of how human groups came to differ in the first place.

yeah but why spend humanity's resources in ways that divide us?

because they dress funny and say axe instead of ask.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Simon Reynolds has written quite a bit about how black musicians are often interested in material displays of status.He has a whole chapter in his book Energy Flash discussing the social context behind the emergence of jungle in the early 90s which is well worth a read. He's also written a lot about hip-hop in many sources, and has used Marxism and other critical theory to explore hip-hop culture. Reynolds has argued that mid-90s drum 'n bass with its obsession with jazz and live instrumentation was attempting to connote up-market "classiness", a very different methodology to hip-hop but the same basic aim. I think the idea is very simple: a lot of black music, particularly hip-hop and drum 'n bass, has its origins in urban poverty, a world in which material wealth is of upmost concern. You don't have to just look at black culture to see poor people everywhere delight in shows of wealth - just look at white British chav culture with its cheap bling and fake designer clothes. To people who have no money, wealth is the ultimate fantasy. This isn't inherently a black thing, it just so happens that important black musicians of the last century were mostly very poor. That in itself is down to obvious social conditions. Reynolds also points out that 90s drum 'n bass prided itself in being "black music" even though a large percentage of the producers and listeners have always been white. In the drum 'n bass underground, he claims, "blackness" is not about race but about social class and background. Or, as Jay-Z put it: "Critics say he's money, cash, hoes - I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those?"

You know what I think is more interesting?

Why is it that early hip hop was more interested in speaking about daily life in the neighborhood community, family traditions, musical tradition, social problems that affect the community, friendly competition with other mcs, radical politics etc?

When did hip hop become obsessed with fame, social status, money? Who bestowed upon hip hop musicians these things? What is the rubric?

Who created and perpetuated the media loop and the fantasy narrative of young black musicians making it big by playing along with the music industry system?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec

Yea it's pretty sad becasue it actually used to be meaningful and artistic. Now it's just....crap.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec yeah but why spend humanity's resources in ways that divide us?

Because we're special and they're not, and we need something to show it.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Simon Reynolds has written quite a bit about how black musicians are often interested in material displays of status.He has a whole chapter in his book Energy Flash discussing the social context behind the emergence of jungle in the early 90s which is well worth a read. He's also written a lot about hip-hop in many sources, and has used Marxism and other critical theory to explore hip-hop culture. Reynolds has argued that mid-90s drum 'n bass with its obsession with jazz and live instrumentation was attempting to connote up-market "classiness", a very different methodology to hip-hop but the same basic aim. I think the idea is very simple: a lot of black music, particularly hip-hop and drum 'n bass, has its origins in urban poverty, a world in which material wealth is of upmost concern. You don't have to just look at black culture to see poor people everywhere delight in shows of wealth - just look at white British chav culture with its cheap bling and fake designer clothes. To people who have no money, wealth is the ultimate fantasy. This isn't inherently a black thing, it just so happens that important black musicians of the last century were mostly very poor. That in itself is down to obvious social conditions. Reynolds also points out that 90s drum 'n bass prided itself in being "black music" even though a large percentage of the producers and listeners have always been white. In the drum 'n bass underground, he claims, "blackness" is not about race but about social class and background. Or, as Jay-Z put it: "Critics say he's money, cash, hoes - I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those?"

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Strangely, it's listed at $75 brand new, or $999 second-hand on Amazon. Some UK-based sellers have it for normal prices though.

Apart from using it for this article, the book sounds like a very interesting read in itself. Come to think of it, I've read a depressingly small amount of printed literature about electronic music. Now could be a good time to order some books and learn something.

You should obviously buy the second-hand one so that you can show it off to your friends/potential lays.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You should obviously buy the second-hand one so that you can show it off to your friends/potential lays.

Only makes sense if it comes with the price tag.

You'll have to wear it around your neck at all times, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Strangely, it's listed at $75 brand new, or $999 second-hand on Amazon. Some UK-based sellers have it for normal prices though. Apart from using it for this article, the book sounds like a very interesting read in itself. Come to think of it, I've read a depressingly small amount of printed literature about electronic music. Now could be a good time to order some books and learn something.

huh? on the US amazon the used copy is $4.46.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Simon Reynolds has written quite a bit about how black musicians are often interested in material displays of status.He has a whole chapter in his book Energy Flash discussing the social context behind the emergence of jungle in the early 90s which is well worth a read. He's also written a lot about hip-hop in many sources, and has used Marxism and other critical theory to explore hip-hop culture. Reynolds has argued that mid-90s drum 'n bass with its obsession with jazz and live instrumentation was attempting to connote up-market "classiness", a very different methodology to hip-hop but the same basic aim. I think the idea is very simple: a lot of black music, particularly hip-hop and drum 'n bass, has its origins in urban poverty, a world in which material wealth is of upmost concern. You don't have to just look at black culture to see poor people everywhere delight in shows of wealth - just look at white British chav culture with its cheap bling and fake designer clothes. To people who have no money, wealth is the ultimate fantasy. This isn't inherently a black thing, it just so happens that important black musicians of the last century were mostly very poor. That in itself is down to obvious social conditions. Reynolds also points out that 90s drum 'n bass prided itself in being "black music" even though a large percentage of the producers and listeners have always been white. In the drum 'n bass underground, he claims, "blackness" is not about race but about social class and background. Or, as Jay-Z put it: "Critics say he's money, cash, hoes - I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those?"

You're spot on mate actually.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec You know what I think is more interesting? Why is it that early hip hop was more interested in speaking about daily life in the neighborhood community, family traditions, musical tradition, social problems that affect the community, friendly competition with other mcs, radical politics etc? When did hip hop become obsessed with fame, social status, money? Who bestowed upon hip hop musicians these things? What is the rubric? Who created and perpetuated the media loop and the fantasy narrative of young black musicians making it big by playing along with the music industry system?

The most obvious point was the transition from east to west coasts. In New York the hip-hop scene was lucky enough to have people like Afrika Bambaataa guiding it, where it was an alternative to gang culture, an escape from it. When it made it to LA there was no such figure who was there right from the start, and so it became the soundtrack to gang culture. Organised crime is in itself an escapist fantasy from poverty - look at all the rags-to-riches gangster movies, and how hip-hoppers idolise fictional criminals like Tony Montana.

I don't know as much about the west coast origins as I do about the NYC origins, but I think hip-hop had to be invented in a feel-good, non-threatening party context. It is, after all, DJ music in the purest sense, and so it was always going to originate in an environment of positivity and communal togetherness. Gangsters couldn't have invented the idea of hip-hop, but once they got hold of it they made it very popular. Gangster rap has an edge, it offers a dangerous thrill to middle class listeners that had been in short supply in mainstream music in the 1980s. Rock music had long since lost its transgressive thrill in the silliness of hair metal. Axl Rose was the most badass figure suburbinates had to turn to in the late 80s, with his try-hard sleazy lyrics about fucking prostitutes. I often think of that shot in the video to You Could Be Mine where he's wearing an NWA baseball cap as the symbolic baton-handing, the moment where gangster rap officially usurped guitar rock as the music of choice for dull middle class kids looking to alienate their parents.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Strangely, it's listed at $75 brand new, or $999 second-hand on Amazon. Some UK-based sellers have it for normal prices though. Apart from using it for this article, the book sounds like a very interesting read in itself. Come to think of it, I've read a depressingly small amount of printed literature about electronic music. Now could be a good time to order some books and learn something.

I'd check out his book Bring The Noise, an anthology of articles he wrote between 1985-2005, with notes written later reflecting on what happened since he wrote them. You'll find more of his writing on hip-hop there, and I also seem to remember that's where I got this upwardly-mobile-jungle idea from as well.

GET THIS MAN SOME...







GRAPE DRANK

Re: Help regarding black culture (academics welcome)

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated I'm writing an article in which I want to touch very briefly on the idea that black people are more status driven than other ethnic groups. I don't think this is a crazy idea considering things like bling-bling, hydraulic cars, or the idea that a particular rapper has more credibility if he's from a rough neighbourhood or has been involved with gangs, et cetera.

You sir, are a fuckin' idiot.

http://www.aaas.fas.harvard.edu/dir...rcyliena-morgan

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights black ppl just have more obvious indicators of status. white ppl are status driven too: "i'm on a boat"

quote:

Originally posted by jdat

that's great!

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