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-- JOOF's thoughts on the scene
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I like the way this guy talks. Didnt mind the interview at all. Best interview i've heard in awhile actually.
I couldn't help but feel that John contradicts himself in parts when you read the following taken from his blog:
Being in this game for a long time, I've seen huge changes in the music industry. In fact the world seems to be run by big corporation companies these days. Most shopping malls look the same, having the usual big chain stores inside. Most towns and cities have a McDonalds, Starbucks and usual supermarket chains. Slowly the independents are getting pushed out the picture. It's no different in the music industry. We're being run by a handful of major labels (that use sub labels to hide their dominance). The independent labels don't really stand a chance in the new corporate world. There once was a day when independent labels would sign a band, tour them around the country in dirty bars, pubs and clubs and build them into something special and turning them into a chart success. The key to this was an outlet of independent record shops where specialist fans would discover new music and bands and support them. Unfortunately this community network no longer exists. The people who worked in these stores .... Where true music lovers. Geeks passionate about music. I miss these days of turning to these people for advice when finding music..... We now live in a World where people want instant gratification, so download stores saw an end to physical shops. The same instant gratification saw the rise to the X-Factor/pop idol culture. We see 'normal' people from the street in a TV competition and instantly want to see them turned into pop stars. The same applies in our specialist dance music World, people are making tracks to become instantly famous so they can tour the World as a DJ. The music cluttered in download shops is testament to this. It's impossible for a band on an independent label to make it into the top 40 charts these days. That chart is run by the handful of major labels and the infrastructure they control. The same can be .... said about the handful of labels that dominate dance music scene. .... It's easy to say that digital downloading killed our specialist records shops. But we lost a lot more than that. We lost our local communities, our outlet of information about up and coming artists, bands or DJ's. Importantly we lost those passionate kids that worked in those stores. Instead we get force fed information from corporate companies telling us what we should be listening too and the inflated electronic hype that comes with it. .... .. .. Let's hope the same technology that took away our specialist communities can help us survive. It's never been about competing with the corporate companies, it's about having a support network. .... That's the difference with passionate music lovers, they are always there to help, and it�s never about being competitive. The trophy holders can keep their awards. To us this means nothing. I want that family community back with likewise people to share my passion with. ....
To be honest, I have an infinite amount of respect for the guy, his music, JOOF etc and agree for the most part with what he says - it's true.
It's just becoming a little tiresome hearing him go on about having his cake and eating it.
Btw Anton Chernikov......A DJ turned producer or vice versa??
Being in this game for a long time, I've seen huge changes in the music industry. In fact the world seems to be run by big corporation companies these days. Most shopping malls look the same, having the usual big chain stores inside. Most towns and cities have a McDonalds, Starbucks and usual supermarket chains. Slowly the independents are getting pushed out the picture. It's no different in the music industry. We're being run by a handful of major labels (that use sub labels to hide their dominance). The independent labels don't really stand a chance in the new corporate world. There once was a day when independent labels would sign a band, tour them around the country in dirty bars, pubs and clubs and build them into something special and turning them into a chart success. The key to this was an outlet of independent record shops where specialist fans would discover new music and bands and support them. Unfortunately this community network no longer exists. The people who worked in these stores .... Where true music lovers. Geeks passionate about music. I miss these days of turning to these people for advice when finding music..... We now live in a World where people want instant gratification, so download stores saw an end to physical shops. The same instant gratification saw the rise to the X-Factor/pop idol culture. We see 'normal' people from the street in a TV competition and instantly want to see them turned into pop stars. The same applies in our specialist dance music World, people are making tracks to become instantly famous so they can tour the World as a DJ. The music cluttered in download shops is testament to this. It's impossible for a band on an independent label to make it into the top 40 charts these days. That chart is run by the handful of major labels and the infrastructure they control. The same can be .... said about the handful of labels that dominate dance music scene. .... It's easy to say that digital downloading killed our specialist records shops. But we lost a lot more than that. We lost our local communities, our outlet of information about up and coming artists, bands or DJ's. Importantly we lost those passionate kids that worked in those stores. Instead we get force fed information from corporate companies telling us what we should be listening too and the inflated electronic hype that comes with it. .... .. .. Let's hope the same technology that took away our specialist communities can help us survive. It's never been about competing with the corporate companies, it's about having a support network. .... That's the difference with passionate music lovers, they are always there to help, and it�s never about being competitive. The trophy holders can keep their awards. To us this means nothing. I want that family community back with likewise people to share my passion with. ....
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| Originally posted by A.B Being in this game for a long time, I've seen huge changes in the music industry. In fact the world seems to be run by big corporation companies these days. Most shopping malls look the same, having the usual big chain stores inside. Most towns and cities have a McDonalds, Starbucks and usual supermarket chains. Slowly the independents are getting pushed out the picture. It's no different in the music industry. We're being run by a handful of major labels (that use sub labels to hide their dominance). The independent labels don't really stand a chance in the new corporate world. There once was a day when independent labels would sign a band, tour them around the country in dirty bars, pubs and clubs and build them into something special and turning them into a chart success. The key to this was an outlet of independent record shops where specialist fans would discover new music and bands and support them. Unfortunately this community network no longer exists. The people who worked in these stores .... Where true music lovers. Geeks passionate about music. I miss these days of turning to these people for advice when finding music..... We now live in a World where people want instant gratification, so download stores saw an end to physical shops. The same instant gratification saw the rise to the X-Factor/pop idol culture. We see 'normal' people from the street in a TV competition and instantly want to see them turned into pop stars. The same applies in our specialist dance music World, people are making tracks to become instantly famous so they can tour the World as a DJ. The music cluttered in download shops is testament to this. It's impossible for a band on an independent label to make it into the top 40 charts these days. That chart is run by the handful of major labels and the infrastructure they control. The same can be .... said about the handful of labels that dominate dance music scene. .... It's easy to say that digital downloading killed our specialist records shops. But we lost a lot more than that. We lost our local communities, our outlet of information about up and coming artists, bands or DJ's. Importantly we lost those passionate kids that worked in those stores. Instead we get force fed information from corporate companies telling us what we should be listening too and the inflated electronic hype that comes with it. .... .. .. Let's hope the same technology that took away our specialist communities can help us survive. It's never been about competing with the corporate companies, it's about having a support network. .... That's the difference with passionate music lovers, they are always there to help, and it�s never about being competitive. The trophy holders can keep their awards. To us this means nothing. I want that family community back with likewise people to share my passion with. .... |
I like J00F as a DJ a lot, but no matter how valid he might be about certain points I agree that he is still "having his cake and eating it". No point in bitching about terrible trance DJs and promoters if you still allow yourself to be booked alongside them.
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| Originally posted by A.B Btw Anton Chernikov......A DJ turned producer or vice versa?? |
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| Originally posted by RebeL9 Producer turned DJ I suppose. |
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| Originally posted by A.B Well there's another contradictory point then. He complains about all these "Producers turned DJ's" and then books one of them for his night (unless Anton was doing a live show which I doubt) |
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| Originally posted by A.B He complains about all these "Producers turned DJ's" and then books one of them for his night (unless Anton was doing a live show which I doubt) |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I like J00F as a DJ a lot, but no matter how valid he might be about certain points I agree that he is still "having his cake and eating it". No point in bitching about terrible trance DJs and promoters if you still allow yourself to be booked alongside them. |
As a long time member of this forum there�s no better time that to pop in here and put my side across.
I have to agree I must come across as a moaning old fart. But that�s not the case at all. I�m just passionate about what I do and the scene I�m involved with. You have to remember I grew up in a scene that was music orientated, the attraction was to experience a new DJ offering new music. This biggest tracks of the nights where the brand new �hot off the press� promos that where spun that evening. DJ�s used to be DJ�s using the music as tools to build the night, we actually had to work hard to keep the dance floor interesting. Importantly the promoter was the man who programmed the events perfectly. People trusted that promoter week in and week out. If he advertised a new DJ was playing prime time, we trusted him and filled the club to see that guy.
Today things are totally different there�s a generation of clubbers grown up thinking that a DJ is a chap who is supposed to play anthem after anthem with a huge amount of pyrotechnics and lighting production.
The past decade has seen huge changes. Instead of DJ�s and producers being creative and innovative in the studio, career�s are born from internet marketing. IT people have become the new DJ�s! This is where I have the problem. Most music specialist I know (inc me) have no care for fame or glory. We don�t want num 1 charting tracks. Don�t want self-glorification. Don�t want to shout about how we �rocked� thousands of people. Music comes first to us. That�s all we care about. Unfortunately in today�s climate, these humble people now get overlooked by promoters, punters because they haven�t got a clever IT person getting them 1000�s of friends on Facebook or appearing on Google searches. It saddens me that we have lost a whole bunch of DJ�s and producers due to this. They have given up. This is what upsets me and I suppose sparks my rants. We lost some of the best producers ever.
Most of you don�t know half the story of the way this industry works, the Pop world style management is at work, yet again pushing others out of the way in order to support their own.
I�m actually doing something about this now. I�ve started my own branded nights �JOOF Editions� that many of you have already experienced. This allows me to do my own thing musically. So I�m taking action instead of many words in the past. I�m currently involved in a HUGE project supporting specialist producers and DJ�s that will be launched soon. Everything is music orientated, so it�s very exciting times.
Blogs, post and words can get very twisted around on forums. So to clear things up..
1) Purist?
No I�m not a purist and hate anything commercial (I�m close friends with Armin, A&B and never say anything bad against them). All I�m trying to do is help unlock the way promoters and some clubbers look at the scene and show there is another fruitful way. Often commercial Trance can be an easy gateway to get people into EDM, once in they may eventually discover me! Things shouldn�t be so separated. No reason why one week you should enjoy Armin dance your socks of to some anthems, then the following week have a heads down night being battered by some dark techno. That�s what the scene used to be about, then people chat about it after and share experiences. Forums seem to create bad vibes on discussions like this today ☹
2) Producers & DJs
Phew here we go again! Producers and DJ�s are a team. We need each other and that will always be the case. No one can hide the fact that if a guy that has been sitting in a studio all his life is presented with DJing at a club he will have no idea what to do.
Things used to work when producers came into clubs playing �live sets�. There is no better feeling watching a true music geek twiddling on keyboards, and FX. The crowd on the dancefloor will be in a different mind set knowing they are watching a live set, in the same way when you�re at a concert to see a band. After all you�re hearing all his tunes you love, and seeing him perform live (he plays them anyway in a DJ set anyway!). Once finished the DJ takes over. This format worked perfectly for years. I think today�s producers should take this approach I know for sure it�s more fun for them. This also lets more real DJ�s onto the circuit.
** In the same way Anton Chernikov performed a live set for me in Brighton**
3) Vinyl � Digital debate
No I�m not taking Pioneer�s side due to me being involved with product development. It�s a simple answer. Carrying around 60 KG of vinyl across the World is no fun. Costs a fortune in excess luggage. On tight flight transfers creates go missing. I�d have to wait weeks to get a track from a producer and have it pressed on vinyl.
Today I turn up at a club with a USB stick and headphones, then play a track a producer has just emailed to me from the other side of the world on the same night.
CD players didn�t kill vinyl, times changes.
4) System J makes a good point. Why do I allow myself to play alongside others that don�t suit me? With lack of specialist clubs in certain territories do I let my fans down and not play in their city at all, or make the effort and do this for them? My fans come first, even if this means I�m out of my comfort zone. When I see their faces enjoying themselves on the dancefloor, I know I�ve made the right decision.
5) didn�t have time to spell check or grammar (both my weakneses!)
6) Oh and I like cake!
I hope you see it�s not ranting, just love for what I do. I also appreciate the huge amount of support from this very forum ☺
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| Originally posted by John 00 Fleming System J makes a good point. Why do I allow myself to play alongside others that don�t suit me? With lack of specialist clubs in certain territories do I let my fans down and not play in their city at all, or make the effort and do this for them? My fans come first, even if this means I�m out of my comfort zone. When I see their faces enjoying themselves on the dancefloor, I know I�ve made the right decision |
What drove the independent scene to the ground is that it got too bloody big for its own good. The proliferation of music in the 90s, the internet that came and allowed people to network on an international level, the rise of pear to pear sites like napster, the accessible sound of trance which was catchy coupled with the album orientated marketing of labels such as global underground (The 1997 boxed CD GU 007 Paul Oakenfold new york sold 170.000 copies in the US alone) meant that many newcomers were entering the scene and were no longer interested in what was going on in the mainstream american scene as they happily existed outside its sphere of influence. When a subculture running parallel to the mainstream gets too big for its own good it gets shut down with some unseen media hand fueling the process. This is what drove the scene to the ground mate. It was the endless propaganda in mixmag every month about how it is no longer fashionable to enjoy it. What drove the independent scene to the ground was the loss of influential clubs in the uk and abroad that were literally forced at gunpoint to shut down. What drove the scene to the ground was the endless praise for the shallow music that went on to replace it. What drove the scene to the ground was the deliberate deception towards artists and label owners from the industry coupled with the lies about how digital distribution has the answer to the decline of record sales.
But let me ask you this, I reckon if digital distribution and experimental music really had the answer and they had about 6 years of it shouldn't we be talking about the increase in label revenue? Shouldn't we be seeing the dance industry recovering from the loss of physical distribution? Shouldn't we be seeing new people entering the scene that are there for the music rather then there for the drugs? But no... everytime we question these schemes we are seen as being blinkered to the bollocks they are force feeding us. There there is a big elephant in the room and mate I reckon this is a classic case of destroy and rebuilt. What we are seeing here is some dodgy media agenda. Erase the scene and replace it with a new one you want to take credit for and the people are too gormless to know any better.
Fair play to you John.
As I said before, I agree with a lot of what you stand for and respect what you are doing musically.
As for Anton in fact playing a live set, then that has to be commended and perhaps I was premature in my initial assumption.
Please understand though that many of us here feel the same about the industry and in some cases have issues where we are banging our heads against never ending brick walls.
I recently came across a DJ competition that would be decided on the amount of people you could bring to the final heat.....
Not about music....just the numbers.
I guess it's pretty easy for everyone to have a go at something they are not happy with in the scene.
Yeah I would love the local record shop to be still going strong too.
I also miss the community and social aspect alongside hunting out those precious tunes not yet 'officially' available.
The fact you yearn for the same yet praise technology to the heavens is where I was referring to 'cake and eating it'
I would put to you personally John - Since the digital age has became the norm (download stores, cdj's, laptop dj'ing etc) how has the scene improved??
It hasn't!
Some things have got easier. That doesn't make them better
If downloads had never been invented (an oxymoron of sorts) and vinyl was still considered the only tangible medium for DJ's, do you think the scene would be more healthy and less saturated with the commerical pop idol / x-factor culture??
| quote: |
| Originally posted by John 00 Fleming 4) System J makes a good point. Why do I allow myself to play alongside others that don�t suit me? With lack of specialist clubs in certain territories do I let my fans down and not play in their city at all, or make the effort and do this for them? My fans come first, even if this means I�m out of my comfort zone. When I see their faces enjoying themselves on the dancefloor, I know I�ve made the right decision. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by John 00 Fleming 5) didn�t have time to spell check or grammar (both my weakneses!) |
slobberpenises and such.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I just wish in these circumstances you'd be willing to accept a smaller fee and play at a smaller, more underground and better night. Perhaps that's unrealistic, but it's impossible to say the scene should be "all about the music" and also say "I need to make a living". I sympathise with the position you're in, because it's harder and harder to make a living from music without compromising your artistic integrity, but unfortunately it still undermines your position. |
Not only have you copy-pasted that entire post from another thread, it's completely irrelevant. When you make decisions based on financial gain, it is no longer all about the music. By default. As I said, I can sympathise with people who're doing this job full time, but the fact remains. Artistic integrity is about making decisions solely for the benefit of your art. That's why the underground is so romanticised, because an underground scene is one purely about love of the music, not about turning a profit. It's in those conditions that music best prospers.
You may have this ludicrous, nostalgic view of the 90s dance scene as the best period ever, but the whole thing collapsed because DJs were out to make too much money, asking for bigger and bigger fees and constructing cults of personality around their image, not their music. You idolise the likes of Oakenfold, but it's exactly his business-oriented approach to squeezing the market dry that killed off all that progressive and trance you can't shut up about.
WEST
27TH
PROGRESSIVE WAS BORN HERE, AND THERE IT DIED. OR DID IT?.............
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| Originally posted by freakster one of the most honest interviews Ive seen with a dj. I have loads of respect for john 00 fleming. |
The line between the two has since become blurred with the help of software and mass music download portals and therefore no more quality control. The End.
very cool of john to come on here and respond to people
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| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J When you make decisions based on financial gain, it is no longer all about the music. By default. As I said, I can sympathise with people who're doing this job full time, but the fact remains. Artistic integrity is about making decisions solely for the benefit of your art. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J That's why the underground is so romanticised, because an underground scene is one purely about love of the music, not about turning a profit. It's in those conditions that music best prospers. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You idolise the likes of Oakenfold, but it's exactly his business-oriented approach to squeezing the market dry that killed off all that progressive and trance you can't shut up about. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Not only have you copy-pasted that entire post from another thread, it's completely irrelevant. When you make decisions based on financial gain, it is no longer all about the music. By default. As I said, I can sympathise with people who're doing this job full time, but the fact remains. Artistic integrity is about making decisions solely for the benefit of your art. That's why the underground is so romanticised, because an underground scene is one purely about love of the music, not about turning a profit. It's in those conditions that music best prospers. You may have this ludicrous, nostalgic view of the 90s dance scene as the best period ever, but the whole thing collapsed because DJs were out to make too much money, asking for bigger and bigger fees and constructing cults of personality around their image, not their music. You idolise the likes of Oakenfold, but it's exactly his business-oriented approach to squeezing the market dry that killed off all that progressive and trance you can't shut up about. |
Now more than ever you don't need money to promote your art, or to make music. Anyone can make a track, anyone can put a track out for everyone else to hear. Any musician quitting because they aren't earning enough was never "all about the music" in the first place.
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