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-- How do you feel about Ghost Producers?
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how i feel about ghost producers? ghost producing is ok imo, as long as you are the ghost, and not the client using them. they are a bunch of losers imo (the clients). whats the point of putting your name on something you havent made? seriously some people have no integrity.

I used to get pissed as hell and fired up over all of this. Especially when I'd find out time and time again, that some track I loved was really done by someone other than the name or names stamped on the track. I guess this came from years of busting my ass and learning things myself. I personally could never call someone else's track my own without always giving the creator the credit.

While I still think it sucks when there is no obvious credit given to the guy that actually did the work, I know it's just all business. Many of these engineers are home bodies and would rather get paid to produce than gig around the world as their client's enjoy doing. I've been approached several times now to write tracks for other people. It's something everyone has to decide how they will handle on their own.

won't go into a huge amount of detail as i think both sides of the argument are equally represented in this thread. I will say that listeners now have the ability to find out who's really behind records of their favorite tracks, artists, etc very easily so the term "ghost" doesn't really exist in it's literal sense anymore. If you want to find out who, it's not hard.

On another note I think ghost" producers 10yrs, 20yrs, 30yrs ago made sense. You didn't have access to the equipment, the knowledge, the resources, the trade, etc. However now with most of the music in our field being done completely in the box I do think it's a bit of a faux pas. You do have nearly everything at your disposal you're just choosing not to learn it or master it yourself.

Lastly, one of my really good friends is behind just an insane amount of records and it's a career choice he's more than happy with:

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Eelke+Kalberg


Do what you think is right for you, if you feel uncomfortable passing on a piece of work you don't think you had enough input to say you made then don't do it.

I just decided I'm going to buy a manuscript from an author, and publish the book as my own work. Ssshhh, I paid the author off, he can't ever tell anyone he wrote the book. I also purchased a painting from an artist, and will pay him off, so I can call it my own. No one has a problem with this, right? OK, I'm off to a showing at the art gallery, where I will have praise heaped on me for my great work of art. After that, I'm off to a book signing for my best selling novel. Being able to buy talent is cool, baby!

Glad you didn't do it. Someone said that he didn't care who made the track as long as it's good, fine, but why should the DJ take credit for the producers work instead of just playing the song? I dont get it. Sure it is probably a faster way to make money, but if everyone just stops with this nonsense the Djs will play the songs WHITHOUT taking credits for making it, that would certainly not do the track any harm.

The world already have enough centralisation, and EDM should not become (more than it already is) part of that IMO. What if the "chief" AKA DJ starts to interfere with the actual production and you have to take his orders just to don't get fired? Is that good for music?

Keep it up

Thanks for the feedback. A lot of mixed feelings from everyone on this one. Another reason why I decided not to work with that label was because we have different vissions. They wanted to go more on the commercial side and I wanted to go more on the darker side. My goal is to produce tracks a la James Holden, John Digweed, Eric Prydz, etc. You know, really dark, weird, WTF was that type of tracks! haha

Anyhow, another thing I didn't like was that they had a schedule. They wanted to pretty much release something every month. I wasn't down with that because that pretty much meant that a lot of my "work" would be garbage. As is, I feel I have not completed a single track. I feel that you can't put a timeline & hurry a track. At least I won't. I'll work on it until I feel happy with it.

Sometimes I'll work on something all day and put it away for months, than when something hits me, I'll come back to it. That happens to me a lot. When I do my rock remixes, somethings I'll do a beat for a particular track, but don't end up using it. Than months later, when I'm working on something else I'll use that beat/sound on the new track.

I know I gotta get over it and get some work out, but honestly, I'm in no hurry. Maybe I'll never even release a track, but who knows. I still feel I'm not ready yet.

i think you said nofor the right reasons. You can not complain about a label being a business though. Don't you have a dj schedule?

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Originally posted by davidmclean My own personal opinion is that even though i am a huge lover of dance music and extremely passionate about it - i couldn't give a fuck who produces a certain track, and whether they try and make it look like someone else's.

Totally.

But that doesn't mean people SHOULD employ a ghost writer... I would have said no if I'd been in the same situation, but I think I've seen it happen so much that I've learnt to tolerate other people doing it!

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Originally posted by Stu Cox I've learnt to tolerate other people doing it!

Does it really piss you off that much?? Yeah I guess it is a shock when you hear a certain artist isn't actually behind a track you like, and maybe I do lose a little respect for them. But I really can't say it bothers me too much, let them do as they wish. If anything it somehow makes making music even more satisfying.

One reason that I think you guys should care about DJs taking credit for their ghostwriter's work is that it contributes to EDM's credibility problem. I don't know how much exposure you guys get to other styles of music, or how much time you spend working with or talking to other non-EDM musicians, but IME they generally don't have a very high regard or respect for them "techno" guys. It's already seen by many as being simple throwaway music made by amateurs, DJs, and wannabes, and the ghostwriting thing doesn't help that perception and certainly makes it that much harder for dance music as a whole to be taken seriously.

I too used to get wound up about but now having worked in the industry, for a while, it's so rife, you just can't let it be a concern.

The only thing that does still annoy me about it is when certain artists get jobs based on work "they have done", and really it was someone else, who A) won't get credit and B) does not then get the higher paid gig that comes through off the back of that ghost work.

I can think of one hiphip/pop producer who did exactly that, and there's a clear difference between what they were making a few years ago, and the quite crap pop fodder they're pushing out now that he's actually making it himself (albeit with serious support from engineers and sub producers etc).

For me, as I look at the line between ghost and producer is very blurred anyway. If you take someone like sasha, who produced so many great tracks throughout the 90's, you had no idea Charlie May was behind 90% of them (but in fairness with Sasha producing as well), until many years later when he came out of the shadows, and Sasha helped him to fame.

Nearly every composer I've ever worked with ha assistants or sub composers contributing to their works and in some extreme cases doing entire chunks if not whole scores, while it's passed off as the work of said famous composers.

I know one EMMY winning composer, that barely does a stroke of work throughout a series, apart from write the initial theme, and review what assistants wrote.

It's part of the game and the ladder to get experience so you just have to accept it.

I suppose the only bit I really don't like is when the person taking the credit has no talent - i don't mind if they could actually do the work to that required caliber, but choose not to out of whatever contraints so get someone to do it for them, but that's a different thing to getting someone to work that you can't and passing it off as your own. Taht for me is the moral boundary.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I suppose the only bit I really don't like is when the person taking the credit has no talent -

It's even worse when they show them in video interviews sitting behind the mixing desk acting like they know what they're doing.

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Originally posted by cryophonik It's already seen by many as being simple throwaway music made by amateurs, DJs, and wannabes

To be fair though alot of it is

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Originally posted by DJ RANN The only thing that does still annoy me about it is when certain artists get jobs based on work "they have done", and really it was someone else, who A) won't get credit and B) does not then get the higher paid gig that comes through off the back of that ghost work.

Its a business and just like every other business people will do what ever they can to make money. If its all above board, providing a better lifstyle for themselves and their familys, then good luck to them, because if they don't, someone else will.

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Originally posted by cryophonik It's even worse when they show them in video interviews sitting behind the mixing desk acting like they know what they're doing.

Lol, Don't get me started on that. I did a recording session with a major EDM double act, who brought their own engineer and I assisted him as he didn't know his way around our studio. The entire session the big names just sat around drinking beer on the sofa while we got on with the recording and producing. At the end of the session, they got another assistant of theirs to do an hour long photo shoot of them pushing faders behind our huge digital desk that they didn't even know how to switch on.

@andy - I'm not against people making money where they can in that respect, I don't have a problem with them as such, it's their choice. I have more of a problem when some talentless twat passes off work as their own so they get gigs/work/productions, that are simply out of their league otherwise. I think it damages the industry as a whole as these things have a way of biting people on the arse eventually.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Lol, Don't get me started on that. I did a recording session with a major EDM double act, who brought their own engineer and I assisted him as he didn't know his way around our studio. The entire session the big names just sat around drinking beer on the sofa while we got on with the recording and producing. At the end of the session, they got another assistant of theirs to do an hour long photo shoot of them pushing faders behind our huge digital desk that they didn't even know how to switch on.

You see when its put like that, it does actually sort of hit a nerve, but above all it just makes me laugh. As mentioned, its the same with pop. Not saying it applies to everyone but for the majority, they turn up and preform someone else's material and take all the cred, so am not at all surprised the same goes on in edm. Let them get on with it and fool people, because we do know better and feel better morally for it. To me its a hobby, I do it for the love and certainly not for the money (although I can't deny making money from it would be nice). Thats life and I guess we just have to suck it up, it happeneds like it or not.

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Originally posted by Andy28 As mentioned, its the same with pop. Not saying it applies to everyone but for the majority, they turn up and preform someone else's material and take all the cred, so am not at all surprised the same goes on in edm.

I think it's a bit different with pop music. Yes, the performer gets the credit, but generally speaking, the performer is just that - a person or group of people who can play and sing the songs. Yes, they get the fame and, by default, much of the credit because they are the face of the music. But, if you check the album credits, the producer, composer, etc. are not kept a secret. And, it's no secret that the pop music industry/machine has been very successful in manufacturing pop icons with that model for decades.

But, with DJs/ghostwriters, you have a guy who isn't talented enough to perform the song, and didn't compose or produce it, but he bought it and is claiming that he is the writer by putting his own name on the credits. It's a blatant lie. But, ultimately, it can be viewed as part of the EDM machine and probably doesn't change the quality of music - producers will keep producing and the best guys will likely have their music heard regardless. But it is deceitful, not to mention pathetic.

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Originally posted by cryophonik But, with DJs/ghostwriters, you have a guy who isn't talented enough to perform the song, and didn't compose or produce it, but he bought it and is claiming that he is the writer by putting his own name on the credits. It's a blatant lie. But, ultimately, it can be viewed as part of the EDM machine and probably doesn't change the quality of music - producers will keep producing and the best guys will likely have their music heard regardless. But it is deceitful, not to mention pathetic.

Well said, Cryo!

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Originally posted by cryophonik I think it's a bit different with pop music. Yes, the performer gets the credit, but generally speaking, the performer is just that - a person or group of people who can play and sing the songs. Yes, they get the fame and, by default, much of the credit because they are the face of the music. But, if you check the album credits, the producer, composer, etc. are not kept a secret. And, it's no secret that the pop music industry/machine has been very successful in manufacturing pop icons with that model for decades.

Thats true, but the audience, the people who buy into the "machine" just dont care, and tbh, even if its written in the credits, they wont have read it and still wont be any the wiser. So just because its written, do they really get any credit or acknowledgement?? From within the industry maybe but not from the public.

We've talked alot about the so called artist, and the obvious hate towards them, but what about the actual "ghost producers"? Are they even bothered that they dont recieve credit in the small print? They get approched to do a job, take a paycheck and then move on to the next project. And lets not forget, if it wernt for them, we wouldn't be on this whole topic. There is alot of hate for the people who use these services, but not the service itself.

Over the years its been a shock to hear of DJ/producers I like and their music wasnt written by them. I have friends who use engineers to write all their music. They are learning to write their own but at the end of the day they need the engineer to complete the work from start to finish as they are not up to the standard to have music with enough quality to be release yet.

Personally I prefer to know that I have written the track from start to finish (if its not a collab of course). I wouldnt feel comfortable portraying that I have made this awesome track and fooling everyone who listens to believe I did, even if the listener doesnt care, some do care as they think you made the music and so follow you as an artist. This aspect is important to me when creating music.

Even though I could probably get money/work/gigs from it, I would rather wait until i am ready and able to make releasable music on my own than use engineers to get music out there.

One of the main reasons is also you have more control of what you do, and where you want to be in music. If you get remix offers, have to do more tracks, or work from labels, you dont have to make that trip to someones studio, pay them and then make the trip back, also having to wait until they are free to have you in.

I know producers who use ghosts compared to the ones who dont, and the ones who dont use ghosts are doing much better for themselves, I believe this mainly contributed purely because they are able to do what they want when they want, how they want to.

If you can make your own music you can do it when ever you please, and I feel the ideas in your mind, only you can get that out as you really want it to be. Explaining it to someone is never the same, especially if you only have a few hours to get it done in the session. If you are doing it on you own set up you can come and go as you please.

Using ghosts is obviously the way these things happen, so each to their own and good luck to people who use them. But my personal view is I want to be in control. The satisfaction of completing something you made is far greater than using engineers.

Good for you DjWoody, as the saying goes....Good things come to those who wait....

In hindsight, I guess I've actually been in similar situations before. I spent much of my younger years working as a musician and I did a a fair bit of session work. Most of those gigs were very simple - show up at the studio with my bass, sign the paperwork, lay down a very simple bass line from a score, get a small check, and go cash it. And, there were many situations that I was just reading from a chord chart and had to invent my own bass line on the fly. These were mostly simple jingles for local radio/TV ads, so it's not like there was any credit to go around and I didn't write the jingle anyway. But, I suppose one could make the argument that what I was doing was tantamount to ghostwriting.

I've also been in the unfortunate situation of other people taking credit for my work (i.e., an unwilling ghostwriter), which probably has a lot to do with my negative views of DJs who want to buy other people's work and present it as their own. One of the singers that I used to work with would constantly take the credit for everything that she sang on in a very passive, yet deliberate and underhanded way, despite the fact that she had no input on the music, melody, or production and, quite frankly, has terrible pitch and timing problems. To this day she still refuses to mention my name when someone asks her about one of our songs. She would write the lyrics, which invariably had to be completely overhauled with my help because sense of timing, rhythm, or phrasing was pretty bad. Sessions would take 3-4 hours to get something usable, then I would have to spend hours pitch-correcting her voice. But, she was young, naive, and also very eager, so I figured that she'd eventually mature in terms of both integrity and ability. Instead she got consistently worse and started to rely on Melodyne as her crutch, rather than practice, and the last session we had was so gut-wrenchingly horrid that the PhD I earned in Melodyne by working with her couldn't even save it. Yet, to this day she still uses this passive approach to make people think that she wrote and produced the songs and she refuses to give credit to the one person who has made her what she is.

So, I essentially created this monstrosity, then quit working with her. To my knowledge, she hasn't finished an original song since, and I've gotten a few emails from other producers since then telling me that they're trying to work with her and asking how I get her to sing so well. So, she's being exposed now for the phony that she is, but much of blame can be placed squarely on my shoulders and, to be honest, it's one of the biggest embarrassments of my long musical career. The irony is that I now distance myself from her as much as possible and, quite frankly, I'm thinking it's best that my involvement with her is kept on the downlow.

So, hopefully that long-winded rant sheds some light on why I have a negative view of people taking credit for other people's work. Phonies will eventually be exposed, especially when they start to draw more and more attention to themselves as a result of their phoniness, and it's embarrassing to everybody involved.

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Originally posted by cryophonik So, hopefully that long-winded rant sheds some light on why I have a negative view of people taking credit for other people's work. Phonies will eventually be exposed, especially when they start to draw more and more attention to themselves as a result of their phoniness, and it's embarrassing to everybody involved.

It does yes and understandably so.. The truth always comes out in the end, especially since she is "blown her own trumpet" then cant back up the talk..

So does anyone have any idea how much it costs to buy a track and call it your own? Do they even make any profit on it or is it all about getting a name out there to build up a profile? (so basically buying their fame). Does the ghost producer make more money doing this than keeping the track and releasing it him/herself as its a fixed guaranteed sum?

Its obvious sometimes I get frustrated when I think some track is made by some guy but later I discover its made by others.

But after some time I start apreciate the real producer skills and I dont care so much about the main name behind the release "cover".

The scene always had ghost producers, we just need deal with that.

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Originally posted by Andy28 So does anyone have any idea how much it costs to buy a track and call it your own? Do they even make any profit on it or is it all about getting a name out there to build up a profile? (so basically buying their fame). Does the ghost producer make more money doing this than keeping the track and releasing it him/herself as its a fixed guaranteed sum?

A lot of it is about buying fame. And yes, for the ghost producer it's a decent guaranteed sum of money.

It probably helps to have one person focused on the production, the other focused on the promotion.

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Originally posted by derail It probably helps to have one person focused on the production, the other focused on the promotion.

Well if their paying for the production, chances are "the other" is also paying someone to do the promotion and anything else that needs doing.

I am quite happy to ghost produce, fist of all i don't need to be in the spotlight, i don't have the time or energy to viral market my brand and be hot like hawtin on gigs. I just like to produce, be in my studio and deliver. If there is a frontman or woman, leveraging that and getting my product out there with his or her brand, Good for me. For me it's far more about the right consumer experience/picture than props where due.

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