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-- John 00 Fleming and DJmag Poll thoughts
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I think TA should get behind JOOF here, come on we have all voted for shits and giggles in the past aka dj mikey mike. I am all for trying to get this scene back on track, not being at the core it is hard as a punter to do so. For those who say "who really cares about the poll". Ask any dj/producer about it and they will all say that in fact it increases your exposure world wide, promoters will book a number and not on talent. The higher up the chain you go, the more $$$ you will get. It's a business strategy.

So many times i have said i don't like a dj and the response i get is "But he was voted number 1 in the world, he must be good". What absolute bollox, for years TA members have been saying how shit this poll is. JOOF has a pretty good strategy and really isn't in it to get to the prestige #1 position. So i don't get the rationale for the shit being slung at him & I don't see it as "gathering more fans".

Either you vote for him, or don't that's all it comes down to.

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Originally posted by Lews I'm confused as to exactly what you want to create. Your own "Bedrock" night? Isn't that what your J00F nights are, already? Or what do you mean by a "specialist club."

yeah this needs more explanation

The electronic music scene is finally starting to split into two divisions...which I think will eventually make the music stronger in the end. You are now starting to see a bigger divide between the commercial cheese filled music and the more underground music. DJs and producers are starting to make their divisions as to which side they want to be a part of. The big cheese will soak up the media attention and fill all the big clubs while the underground will do exactly that...go underground to the smaller venues.

What I figure will happen is the fans of the big cheese music will grow up and stop listening to this music because there is always some new shiny piece of metal to look at. The fans of the underground sound will continue with it and it will grow and will eventually become the cheese music of the next generation...leaving the underground fans to split again.

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Originally posted by narcism I think TA should get behind JOOF here, come on we have all voted for shits and giggles in the past aka dj mikey mike. I am all for trying to get this scene back on track, not being at the core it is hard as a punter to do so. For those who say "who really cares about the poll". Ask any dj/producer about it and they will all say that in fact it increases your exposure world wide, promoters will book a number and not on talent. The higher up the chain you go, the more $$$ you will get. It's a business strategy. So many times i have said i don't like a dj and the response i get is "But he was voted number 1 in the world, he must be good". What absolute bollox, for years TA members have been saying how shit this poll is. JOOF has a pretty good strategy and really isn't in it to get to the prestige #1 position. So i don't get the rationale for the shit being slung at him & I don't see it as "gathering more fans". Either you vote for him, or don't that's all it comes down to.

+1

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming The one benefit I saw from being in the poll, was corporate companies approaching me for sponsorship. This is my reasoning for maybe giving it a shot again. I can then get sponsorship to start building a community to support the specialist scene, something that doesn't exist out there. Regardless of the poll or not, I'm going to make this happen either way and need help and support, there's a HUGE job ahead.

Since we are talking about building a "revolution" that comes from the people that would like something different to exist again. Why not ask these people to donate money in exchange of being part of this "revolution"? And only later go to sponsors making them aware that there is a large audience that is starting a new underground movement? Given all the online tools we have available today to make something like this happen I would give it a shot and if it doesn't work it probably just mean that even getting you to number 20-50 on this idiotic poll (lower is probably impossible today) won't change all that much, except for just yourself personally.

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Thanks for being so kind this time, I'm taking my brave pill coming into the forum

Well credit where credit is due, you don't have a glass chin.

Thing is though, these scene you desire has gone. It won't come back.

There are so many decent DJs here alone that I don't go looking for CDs or mixes by the big names hardly because I know the DJs I follow on here and else where consistently deliver decent music.

Some of my friends and associates throw on events that don't get more than a hundred people through the door in some little club/bar, but they hire a loud as fuck sound system and everyone there is present for the music or their mates and it's a good vibe.

Being truthful I see that as the only way the underground movement will continue. Apart from maybe big name DJs going back to grass roots and being willing to play some shit hole in the corner of nowhere for a dozen people on E.

Go with the flow J00F, you'll always have your fans. Even Bond adapts to his environment.

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Thanks for being so kind this time, I'm taking my brave pill coming into the forum

I would take the positive response as a massive sign of respect, it isn't a common thing

I've never voted in this poll, but if it will help in any infintesimally tiny way you have mine this time around, least I can do for one of the best sets I've ever experienced in Melbourne many moons ago. Will keep across your efforts.

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Originally posted by Euforix But I don't know how a single trance listener can do? J00F talks about big changes but not so much about the instructions, or then I have misunderstood something.

The trance listener can vote for JOOF. He is in a position of power, more than anyone on this board, to make some good out of this poll.

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Originally posted by Trancefxs Why not ask these people to donate money in exchange of being part of this "revolution"?

HAHAH please we live in a society where people don't even buy music anymore, as if you are going to get people to "donate" money.

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Originally posted by evo8 yeah this needs more explanation

This explains it perfectly, the scene is all about gimmicks these days.

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Originally posted by Tweak I would take the positive response as a massive sign of respect, it isn't a common thing I've never voted in this poll, but if it will help in any infintesimally tiny way you have mine this time around, least I can do for one of the best sets I've ever experienced in Melbourne many moons ago. Will keep across your efforts.

Are you coming to Friday nights gig?

nice discussion going on here. while some people might not agree with the medium j00f is using to achieve his goal, his motive is spot on. j00f, you got my support!

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Originally posted by narcism HAHAH please we live in a society where people don't even buy music anymore, as if you are going to get people to "donate" money.

Donate wasn't a good word choice from my part, but people are willing to give their money away if they can get value out of it. Also such an initiative would be targeted to people that still give some value to the music they listen to.
If the only way this scene can comeback to a different standard is through sponsorships based on a dj poll ranking, I doubt this revival has any chance to be sustainable.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming ... The one benefit I saw from being in the poll, was corporate companies approaching me for sponsorship. This is my reasoning for maybe giving it a shot again. I can then get sponsorship to start building a community to support the specialist scene, something that doesn't exist out there. ...

And Armin Van Buuren, can't he help ?

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The electronic music scene is finally starting to split into two divisions...which I think will eventually make the music stronger in the end. You are now starting to see a bigger divide between the commercial cheese filled music and the more underground music. DJs and producers are starting to make their divisions as to which side they want to be a part of. The big cheese will soak up the media attention and fill all the big clubs while the underground will do exactly that...go underground to the smaller venues. What I figure will happen is the fans of the big cheese music will grow up and stop listening to this music because there is always some new shiny piece of metal to look at. The fans of the underground sound will continue with it and it will grow and will eventually become the cheese music of the next generation...leaving the underground fans to split again.

very good response, i was actually gonna write something very similar
the past few years i started evolveing and moving away from the big guys who sold out
last cheesey event i went to was anjuna night at wmc this year, i regret not going to bedrock night instead...the music at anjuna was soooo cheesey and predictable...sun and moon,on a good day bullshit
and you got these kids eatting it up and singing their lungs out at the same time thinking its trance music, never again do i support bullshit like that

as for j00f, i wish you the best of luck with your new nights i hope it sparks something, me personally i do support local dj's and i see dj's who keep it real and not play the top 10 tracks on beatport or whore out their own productions for 2 hours and call it set...BUT i feel it's going to take more than just you to really change the way people see electronic dance music, you are pretty much the only trance dj speaking out about this...its going to take a few more and someone bigger to really get peoples attention

hopefully dj's in other genre's from house and techno will follow and bash guetta and shm for makeing pop house music

heres a link from the dj mag poll in 2001
http://www.olddjmag.com/index.php?y...00dj_op=results

thats when it was a time when the music spoke for the dj, not facebook whoreing,pop tracks,selling out etc etc

today its really a joke gareth emery above carl cox,digweed,hawtin,tenaglia etc etc they are the godfathers of modern edm its such a shame i havent voted since 2007 thats how bad it has been these past few years

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Originally posted by Trancefxs Donate wasn't a good word choice from my part, but people are willing to give their money away if they can get value out of it. Also such an initiative would be targeted to people that still give some value to the music they listen to. If the only way this scene can comeback to a different standard is through sponsorships based on a dj poll ranking, I doubt this revival has any chance to be sustainable.

I think you may have missed the point completely. It's not about the financial side of things, it's about the bigger picture. If people start to change their attitudes about the scene it needs to come from the top. The money will always be injected into the top 20 of the poll. This is about changing the way media portray the other 100+ people in the poll. Instead of the big guns taking all the limelight, the lesser known guys/girls also get exposure. Re-read what John had to say about this:

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Originally posted by John 00 Fleming I'm looking to help the scene as a whole. Remember I came from a specialist/underground scene that was plentiful. Not only clubs but an infrastructure that supported these producers and DJ's. Journalists would actually venture out into these clubs, hear the DJ's and music, then report back in the form of text in magazines.If they where good, they'd get supported! Todays magazines seem to get force fed what to write by powerful marketing companies paid by rich DJ's. I know many of you are budding DJ's and producers out there; When's the last time you have a track reviewed in press? When's the last time you got some editorial on your DJing skills? None, is probably the answer for most, and this needs to change as I have seen some outstanding talent while on the road. I 100% know if I can be involved with building a new infrastructure, it will make heads turn, especially with club owners and promoters, to make them realize there is another way of filling clubs rather than booking headline acts.

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Originally posted by narcism I think you may have missed the point completely. It's not about the financial side of things, it's about the bigger picture. If people start to change their attitudes about the scene it needs to come from the top. The money will always be injected into the top 20 of the poll. This is about changing the way media portray the other 100+ people in the poll. Instead of the big guns taking all the limelight, the lesser known guys/girls also get exposure.

I understand that completely, but if you reread my first post you will see that I didn't start to talk about the financial side out of nowhere. It was John that first mentioned it. I am not questioning his goals, whether they are achievable or not, I am just wondering whether the plan he has in mind makes any sense.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The electronic music scene is finally starting to split into two divisions...which I think will eventually make the music stronger in the end. You are now starting to see a bigger divide between the commercial cheese filled music and the more underground music. DJs and producers are starting to make their divisions as to which side they want to be a part of. The big cheese will soak up the media attention and fill all the big clubs while the underground will do exactly that...go underground to the smaller venues. What I figure will happen is the fans of the big cheese music will grow up and stop listening to this music because there is always some new shiny piece of metal to look at. The fans of the underground sound will continue with it and it will grow and will eventually become the cheese music of the next generation...leaving the underground fans to split again.

+1. Interesting thought about the future of EDM scene.

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Originally posted by tranceraverla I loved his tune JAWA. With that said, J00F needs to lighten up a bit. Negativity doesn't have a place in this highly competitive scene. I advise choosing positive vibes and a bright outlook. If J00F really doesn't like the DJ Mag poll he should just not talk about it at all. He's giving it credit by blasting its name out there and coming off as a very jealous DJ. Not good when you want to attract more fans. That's my two cents.

My thoughts exactly

This ill-advised attempt to marry the mainstream and the "specialist" (read: underground) scenes completely overlooks the irreconcilable divide between the two: specialists don't make music to make money or gain fame. There is no specialist scene where publicity, marketing, sponsors, magazines and shops become part of the motivation for making music. The music itself is what matters, not how many people get to hear it or what sort of gigs you can get playing that kind of music.

Once financial rewards and publicity becomes a motivation, regardless of whether it's for your own or somebody else's sake, you've become a businessman. The specialist scene is no longer your domain at that point, as you've stepped into the mainstream and are trying to get your piece of the pie PR-wise just like everyone else. That you're trying to do it with music that isn't very popular does not change this.

Finally, who the hell are you to brand an entire scene with "in need of help"? There is example upon example of producers getting their music out there via the various networking options on offer in the year 2011, and spreading to larger audiences via word of mouth (do you think Kode9 was concerned with gigs and sponsors when he decided to release Burial - Burial on Hyperdub?). THIS is where the real "specialist scene" is. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't need any "help" from businessmen who no longer see the commercial ventures they got used to a decade ago in the music they love, and somehow considers this to be a problem. What it needs is DJs who play all this good music, regardless of what genre it might be, and regardless of whether it might piss off some of their fans who came to hear the newest track by Astrix. But of course, will any DJs actually do this when it inevitably involves a certain loss of profit and marketability?

Like J00F, I don't care about the DJMAG poll. However, unilke him and basically everyone else in the entire EDM scene, neither do I care about DJ's or DJ'ing, like at all.

Here's a quote from a female columnist from the culture section on the Sydsvenskan newspaper regarding the lack of female DJ's:

quote:

Some people (almost exclusively DJ's) claim that the jockeying is an art, something I'm not buying. To make music is art, but playing someone else's music and changing from one track to another is and should be considered a service. I've done some gigs before still do it on a small scale. Yes, it's fun to be the one who selects the tracks and decide what a dance floor should be dancing to. And yes; it's a status thing as well; the narcissist inside of me is enjoying the attention I'm getting and all the dudes flirting with me when gig is over. But if I remove my ego, there's nothing left but a shitty job. Bad working conditions, bad wages and I can't even go to the bathroom since I can't leave the equipment without my surveillance. To DJ is filled with status and therefore people are standing in a line to work nighttime for an almost non-existent salary. The question is if the occupation would be as attractive if it was dominated by females.

I'd like to go one step further and say that DJ's are downright useless. Back in the 70's, the only way one could possibly have a listen to the latest music (at least in disco music) was by going to the place where the local DJ was playing. But thanks to the internet, I can access all the music of the world so easily I've never felt the need for a local DJ (or even MTV anymore for that matter). As the columnist said it's only, in our particular case, the producers who should be getting all the artistic appreciation.

Now you might be saying that I shouldn't be talking about this since I have no experience in this field and you're absolutely right. I have never put my foot in a nightclub ever, but it doesn't matter. This just reminds me of the state of the gamer culture right now, where there's not just a visible line, but in fact a huge valley between the so called hardcore gamers and casual gamers (In case you have no idea what I'm talking about watch this video). I can't help seeing the similarities between the video game culture and the EDM scene.

Most people past their late teens don't have the time or energy to devote many hours each day to searching out music in much depth, let alone stringing pieces together into a narrative that feels like more than the sum of its components. Part of the value of a DJ is to be a person who does.

So yeah, if you see the entire purpose of the DJ as just to let everybody know what's new and hot, then of course they will seem useless these days. But it can be a bit more than that.

I don't really understand how getting a high placing on the DJ Mag poll will stimulate the underground scene. I just don't see the causality, just vague talk of "unlocking doors" and "convincing promoters". The whole problem with the DJ Mag poll is that the promoters who value it are idiots. You don't want to convince them of anything, you want to stop working with them. Get higher up on the DJ Mag poll and you're simply going to get more booking offers for the kind of events you hate. Feel free to explain a clear methodology to me, but I don't think this is the solution.

Moreover, I agree that trance, perhaps more than another genre, has completely ossified into separate commercial and underground strata that have nothing to do with each other. It's probably impossible at this point to recreate a trance scene where credible music achieves widespread and unforced popularity. These things have to occur organically. Trance music in the '90s encapsulated a certain cultural zeitgeist, a mixture of millenial futurist excitement, predominant stylistic currents and the popularity of certain drugs. In 2011 the clubbing landscape is radically different. There are styles of underground music that explode and, at least temporarily, hit the sweet spot between artistic merit and widespread popularity. Nobody can really explain why dubstep took off so well, but it did it through word-of-mouth, press interest and a sense of striking a communal chord. I personally think trance has come and gone as a movement, and now it will only exist in this binary state of underground scene for devotees and ultra-commercialised caricature for the kids.

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Originally posted by pointPi I have never put my foot in a nightclub ever, but it doesn't matter.

Yes it does. And "hardcore" and "casual" games and gamers are a complete myth.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The whole problem with the DJ Mag poll is that the promoters who value it are idiots. You don't want to convince them of anything, you want to stop working with them.

Yea I think I'd have to agree with that to be honest. Why play at the kind of night that wants to book the archetypal 'superstar' that you are criticising? Even though you maintain your dignity, you will still be surounded by DJs (and clubbers) who are all about something completely different.

I am a huge fan of John and usually completely agree with the things he says. Dunno if he has something up his sleave or not

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Originally posted by pointPi I have never put my foot in a nightclub ever

So, that's why Djs are useless for you.

must be those fire hazards man

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Originally posted by tranceraverla I loved his tune JAWA. With that said, J00F needs to lighten up a bit. Negativity doesn't have a place in this highly competitive scene. I advise choosing positive vibes and a bright outlook. If J00F really doesn't like the DJ Mag poll he should just not talk about it at all. He's giving it credit by blasting its name out there and coming off as a very jealous DJ. Not good when you want to attract more fans. That's my two cents.

^
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I concur

^^

lol whats up with this one guy making 3 alts to concur with his bashing. moderator pm'd. gee i wonder who he works for, derp.

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