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Opponents of an institutional right to suicide (advocates of forced life) often defend their views by citing evidence that relatively few people who attempt suicide, but are "rescued," go on to commit suicide. One often-cited study is a 1976 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which found that, of 886 patients with a "serious" suicide attempt, "only" 4% went on to kill themselves within the following five years (Rosen, The Serious Suicide Attempt: Five Year Follow Up Study of 886 Patients, 1976:235 JAMA 2105, 2105). However, a 2004 study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry gives us some perspective on this. The findings of the newer study, "Completed Suicide After a Suicide Attempt: A 37-Year Follow-Up Study," (Am J Psychiatry 2004; 161:563�564) follows a cohort of attempted suicides (all self-poisoning attempts), as the study's title suggests, over a 37-year period. At the end of the period, 13% of the attempters has committed suicide (though that figure increases to 19% when suspicious deaths that weren't clearly suicides, but may have been, are factored in). But the most surprising result of the study is that the rate of suicide didn't substantially decrease over time. A major proportion of the suicides occurred decades after the initial attempt. The rate of suicide did not fall significantly even decades after the attempt. It is important to consider that self-poisoning is considered by many to be a less serious method of attempting suicide than more reliably lethal means, such as jumping from heights and gunshot. The proportion of completed suicides after an attempt using these methods is unknown, but we might expect it to be significantly higher than the proportion for the attempted self-poisoners. ...Another important piece of data recently became available about the suicidal brain. A study published in Biological Psychiatry found that the brain of a person dead by suicide, compared to a person dead of other causes, such as a heart attack, was likely to display altered gene expression. DNA methylation, a process which generally works to impede unnecessary gene expression (for instance, to prevent a brain cell from "acting" like a kidney cell), was much more extensive in the brains of suicides (who had all been previously diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder) than in the brains of other deceased people. The study's leader, Dr. Michael O. Poulter, commented to Science Daily that "the nature of this chemical modification is long term and hard to reverse, and this fits with depression." The study highlights the gaping holes in our understanding of the etiology of suicide and "depression," and lends support to the idea that suicidality is permanent - or, at least, "long term and hard to reverse."

http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com...uicidality.html

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gaping holes

What are you doing?

Being.

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Originally posted by srussell0018

I came to this thread because I sensed I'd find breasts and philosophy here. Thank you, Brian

By the way,

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Why not: It hurts those who remain.

That's hardly an argument against suicide.

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Some supernatural power may disapprove of your choice.

For all we care, some supernatural power may disapprove of pretty much anything you ever decide to do.

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Originally posted by Lira That's hardly an argument against suicide.

Why not?

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Originally posted by Vector A

wow.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Why not?

Turn the argument on its head to see if it holds water: Imagine you enjoy a truly happy life, and you wish to live for as long as possible. Good, right? Not quite. For some reason, everyone else thinks you're an insufferable bastard, and would rather see you dead. Your existence alone is enough to make them feel miserable because they got to know you and they now have to deal with it. Would their suffering be an argument for your suicide? Does their bliss after your suicide even matter? Probably not, even because (for the sake of the argument) we may assume you never intended to hurt them in the first place.

Now, imagine you live a horrible life, you hate yourself and you want to die. Horrible, right? Not really. For some reason, everyone else thinks you're lovely, and would like to have you around them. Your existence alone is enough to make them feel better because they got to know you and got attached to you. Would their pleasure be an argument against your suicide? Would their sorrow after your suicide even matter? If it didn't matter in the paragraph above, it surely doesn't apply to this case.

I don't know about all that. I think it's one of the most selfish things a person could do. Taking the easy way out and leaving family and loved ones behind confused and devastated is terrible imo.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I don't know about all that. I think it's one of the most selfish things a person could do. Taking the easy way out and leaving family and loved ones behind confused and devastated is terrible imo.

I find this sort of mourning nearly as unfair as the schadenfreude I mentioned in my counter-example: if someone goes as far as taking their own life because they couldn't take the pain any longer, is it fair for anyone to wish this person went on living? Doesn't this strike you as selfish?

The only good argument I know against suicide is the fact that it's, more often than not, an act carried out solely on bad faith: you believe your life won't change, therefore it's not worth living. You can't know that and, if you're living a hard life, chances are you're not in a good position to rule this possibility out. Your life may, in fact, turn out to be a good one in the end. By committing suicide you deny yourself the opportunity of finding out whether or not things would really improve.

If your family or loved ones care enough to be that distraught over your committing suicide, then you most certainly have something to live for IMO. Killing yourself is almost like telling them that their love wasn't enough.

Maybe their love wasn't enough?

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Originally posted by srussell0018 If your family or loved ones care enough to be that distraught over your committing suicide, then you most certainly have something to live for IMO. Killing yourself is almost like telling them that their love wasn't enough.

Stu's question is right on but, if you think about it, maybe their love wasn't what the person needed.

Well that's just silly.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Well that's just silly.

Here's an example I was thinking of when I wrote that: My grandma's late husband (never met him, don't worry) killed himself because he found out he had an inoperable brain tumour. The reason why he off'ed himself had nothing to do with my grandmother's feelings for him, and she cared a lot for him.

Would you say that, by committing suicide, he told my grandmother (and everyone else around him) that her love for him wasn't enough? That wasn't even relevant in the context.

Edit: Typo.

I would say it's not necessarily that their love for him wasn't enough, but I still think it's selfish any way you try to construe it.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I would say it's not necessarily that their love for him wasn't enough, but I still think it's selfish any way you try to construe it.

That's a common feeling against suicide, and it's quite understandable, I'd say. I just take it to be somewhat circular if it is to be used as an argument against suicide.

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Originally posted by Lira Here's an example I was thinking of when I wrote that: My grandma's late husband (never met him, don't worry) killed himself because he found out he had an inoperable brain tumour. The reason why he off'ed himself had nothing to do with my grandmother's feelings for him, and she cared a lot for him. Would you say that, by committing suicide, he told my grandmother (and everyone else around him) that her love for him wasn't enough? That wasn't even relevant in the context. Edit: Typo.

I'm not even sure if it needs to be context specific, to be honest.

A person's life is their own, to do with as they please. If they don't want to live, then they shouldn't be forced to

Your post though, Lira, brings up a slightly different issue as well - That of euthanasia. Is assisted suicide wrong as well? Is it necessarily different from regular suicide? Now, it seems, is where the context comes into play. For me, anyway, due to another party being directly involved with the death.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk I'm not even sure if it needs to be context specific, to be honest. A person's life is their own, to do with as they please. If they don't want to live, then they shouldn't be forced to

That's pretty much how I see it myself, but I'm clearly part of a minority here where I live. Pretty much everyone I've met shares Russell's concern, which I'd say is a quite logical one.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Your post though, Lira, brings up a slightly different issue as well - That of euthanasia. Is assisted suicide wrong as well? Is it necessarily different from regular suicide? Now, it seems, is where the context comes into play. For me, anyway, due to another party being directly involved with the death.

I tend to be even easier on euthanasia (because my argument on bad faith becomes terribly weaker), though I do have my reservations (because, who knows, in some cases the disease may somehow be cured).

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Originally posted by Lira That's pretty much how I see it myself, but I'm clearly part of a minority here where I live. Pretty much everyone I've met shares Russell's concern, which I'd say is a quite logical one.

Not really surprised to hear that - You live in a country whose dominant belief is Catholicism, yes? That view may be "logical" but I personally don't find it to be reasonable. Of course, that's just me.

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Originally posted by Lira I tend to be even easier on euthanasia (because my argument on bad faith becomes terribly weaker), though I do have my reservations (because, who knows, in some cases the disease may somehow be cured).

Heh, I tend to be harsher on euthenasia. Like I said though, it's due to there being a second (or third, or who knows how many) parties involved. Too much room there for feelings, etc., and therefore error.

I'll be clear though, I'm ALL FOR assisted suicide under the right conditions.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Your post though, Lira, brings up a slightly different issue as well - That of euthanasia. Is assisted suicide wrong as well? Is it necessarily different from regular suicide? Now, it seems, is where the context comes into play. For me, anyway, due to another party being directly involved with the death.

I know it's going a bit off topic but this is something I feel strongly on. I believe euthanasia should be legalised in exceptional cases. I'm currently watching the person who did more than anyone else to raise me in extreme pain, needing a lot of painkillers just to be in 'slightly less pain' - their standard of living has dropped considerably in the last 5 years and the body is giving up. Knees aren't working (1 has been replaced), Hips hurt, shoulders hurt and spine is eroding away. Seeing a person with that much independance suddenly be reliant on people for menial tasks isn't nice at all. Things are only going to get worse for them and there becomes a point where you do wonder what sort of life it will leave them with. As it stands they have problems just sitting down, the body begins to hurt, but moving is bad. It's utterly heartbreaking to see happen and only goes to strengthen my thoughts that there will become a time where peolpe should be offered the most humane way out of things as possible. This goes for those who lose mental facilties too. My butcher is good for chat each week & he pointed out to me that we're spending so much on cancer treatments and age prolongment but if a big proportion of those people then get dementia not long after, was the previous treatments as worthwhile and should we not be funding as much ways to prevent or delay it from happening?

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