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quote:

Originally posted by skyhunter I just thought this was about breakdowns.

and build-ups..

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I will happily tell every inexperienced producer to never, ever copy a formula if they want to make interesting and involving music.

That's just bad advice because every producer learns by trying to copy someone else.

Burial tried to copy El B, but failed and ended up with his own sound.

edit: Do you produce at all? Or just DJ?

here's a huge build-up..

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux That's just bad advice because every producer learns by trying to copy someone else.

Good, so I'm not going crazy. Seriously, who the hell tries to steer someone who's inexperienced in the direction of making creative, interesting, unique music? You have to start somewhere.. focusing on that sort of thing early on is pointless.

OP - import a track you admire and copy the essence of the breakdown, mapping where things fall and how they rise.

One thing I would think you might want to try and avoid is what I call the 'film score inserted into a track' type break where there is too little relationship between the break and the rest of the track and where there is a lack of dancey vibe comming from the instruments. Some producers have pulled off a 'film score break' well, but honestly most end up wronging it.

By all means slow it all down, leach out all the percs and even go to silence but just avoid a dog charity cheesey advert score sandwiched into a track.

Ooh, conflicting philosophies! *grabs popcorn*

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux That's just bad advice because every producer learns by trying to copy someone else. Burial tried to copy El B, but failed and ended up with his own sound.

I think it was Picasso that said that in order to become a master yourself at a specific art, you'll have to attempt copying the works of other masters of the same art. The mistakes you will make will be what defines your style.

quote:

Originally posted by pointPi Ooh, conflicting philosophies! *grabs popcorn* I think it was Picasso that said that in order to become a master yourself at a specific art, you'll have to attempt copying the works of other masters of the same art. The mistakes you will make will be what defines your style.

I think this is spot on. Burial said he tried for YEARS trying to copy El B, but he just could not do it. In the end, I honestly think he came out with something better, but that's also just my personal opinion. I can understand the frustration of not being able to mimic someone's style who you admire.

Even if you could complete copy someone else style complete, everyone just has a different set of influences.

I understand your advice on being creative trying to avoid a formula, but sincerely...how could I break the rules if I don't even know them.
At the stage I am, would be happy if I could simply finish a track!

I've tried to replicate some breaks, but mine were somehow souless and cold. That's why I asked for the common filters and fx used in breaks. Most of the times it doesn't seem simply a rising cutoff filter. And I guess a key role could play a melody of 3 or more chords?


Regarding the build-up, I am really at 0.
1/16 + volume automation? Is it just that? And what instrument should I use?


As you see I really miss the basics. These things are probably a joke for many of you.

And specials thanks to DjRyan for his great practical advices. That's what I need.

quote:

Originally posted by future_newbie These things are probably a joke for many of you.

It's not that it's a joke. It's that its complexity defies a simple explanation. Even if you had a specific example of a sound you're trying to emulate, you're going to get ten different answers, many of which are incompatible with one another, from ten different people attempting to explain to you, how to get that sound.

I learned by emulating. I didn't ask a lot of questions about it. I just liked what I heard, tried translating that into my own tracks, made a LOT of mistakes along the way and, through those mistakes, acquired techniques elemental to my sound.

I have to mirror a lot of what's being said here but especially Richard Butlers comment on mirroring one of your favorite tracks.

What's he's talking about is pretty simple, but can go a long way in helping not only your song structure, but will force you to create the sounds necessary in order to make a decent track- theoretically.

You should go through your music library and find a song you really like. Then, import that into your DAW.

Within that DAW make sure you have some 'basic' percussion elements, a bass, and maybe your melody. Then, mirror the track. Take your kick first and follow along with the track. Line it up perfectly. You should immediatley notice that not everything lines up on a 4, 8, 16, or 32. It's more like 4 1/32 or 4 1/16. Once you got the drums mirroring what your favorite track is doing. Put the bass in where the bass comes in. When the phrase skips a few beats, you skip a few beats. When it breaks you break. Just mirror the song. Including the build-up and the break.

Like I said it will force you to be creative, but also, will enhance your track because your following a song structure that will not only follow the "rules" but can be managed/played by a dj.

And speaking of those "rules"

Dude, they're unspoken. I've been in this for 10 years djing. Either you get it or you think you get it, or you don't. The fundamentals are sometimes referred to e.g.: 16, 32 beats/phrases etc. But noone comes out and says these are the "rules"

But I'm down for sharing whatever it is I know. Trust me when I say that I've battled througha lot of frustrations behind the turntables, and in the studio.

Just keep at it and do it for noone else but you.

Yes, I have the same problem! DIfficult to get good breaks + build ups!

But I think, I have learned a bit from songs I like. Usually songs I listen + like have similar structure, but the sounds are different, feeling is different. So it feels fresh and different even the structure is pretty much same.

when I first started listening to trance/dance and writing my own songs I couldnt work out why pro tracks had such depth, movement and just an overall great energy, yet they sounded (like so many great tracks) so simple, like there was nothing to it, well wasnt I wrong!

I ditched the studio and sat down with a pen and stave paper and drew in some bars/measures. I put on a song I liked and as it played I marked on the bars/measures (with my own symbols) where things were coming in and out, in order to get everything down I had to listen to the song a million times but it was worth it. By the end I couldnt believe how much was going on and how clever it was. It also helped me see what was happening arrangement wise. In a way, you are "reverse engineering" a product to see how its done. Doesnt mean you have to copy it, but you can apply the things you learn to your own songs with your own twist.

give it a try, you'll be surprised.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux That's just bad advice because every producer learns by trying to copy someone else. Burial tried to copy El B, but failed and ended up with his own sound.

It's not an issue of whether you copy someone/something else. That is self-evidently part of the learning process for any artist, and it's not even in dispute here. What I'm talking about is what you try to copy. El B was an original and innovative producer in his own right, he was not a "formula". Try telling Burial that "structure is more or less set in stone". What the fuck are you going to learn from deliberately trying to recreate generic breakdowns? How to make a generic breakdown. That's not "interesting and involving", it's bland and boring. By all means, copy the shit out of people, but don't copy the shit out of formulaic, predictable, inane records under some mistaken assumption that you're thereby following the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J It's not an issue of whether you copy someone/something else. That is self-evidently part of the learning process for any artist, and it's not even in dispute here. What I'm talking about is what you try to copy. El B was an original and innovative producer in his own right, he was not a "formula". Try telling Burial that "structure is more or less set in stone". What the fuck are you going to learn from deliberately trying to recreate generic breakdowns? How to make a generic breakdown. That's not "interesting and involving", it's bland and boring. By all means, copy the shit out of people, but don't copy the shit out of formulaic, predictable, inane records under some mistaken assumption that you're thereby following the rules.

So only copy the producers System J likes?

quote:

Originally posted by future_newbie I understand your advice on being creative trying to avoid a formula, but sincerely...how could I break the rules if I don't even know them. At the stage I am, would be happy if I could simply finish a track! I've tried to replicate some breaks, but mine were somehow souless and cold. That's why I asked for the common filters and fx used in breaks. Most of the times it doesn't seem simply a rising cutoff filter. And I guess a key role could play a melody of 3 or more chords? Regarding the build-up, I am really at 0. 1/16 + volume automation? Is it just that? And what instrument should I use? As you see I really miss the basics. These things are probably a joke for many of you. And specials thanks to DjRyan for his great practical advices. That's what I need.

Approach with a plan in mind, keep it simple to avoid complications. So many bars for an intro, then into a break down or no, or continue with incremental changes. Your possibilities are endless. Map it out, create a lead sound, riff etc, loop it over run it for so many bars, bring something else in. And, away you go!

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux So only copy the producers System J likes?

I'm not much of an El B fan.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J What the fuck are you going to learn from deliberately trying to recreate generic breakdowns?

You'll learn how to make music. It's not up to you to decide for an artist what's worth learning about.

No, but I'm free to give my own opinion on what makes interesting and involving music. I think your objections have more to do with me criticising something you like than anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No, but I'm free to give my own opinion on what makes interesting and involving music. I think your objections have more to do with me criticising something you like than anything else.

Who does it help to tell someone that the music they want to make is something you're not going to like?

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Who does it help to tell someone that the music they want to make is something you're not going to like?

At what point anywhere before I replied did he say he wanted to make any particular kind of music or any particular kind of breakdown? He didn't mention any particular genre, which is why I mentioned dubstep, drum 'n bass and electro house as examples in my reply. He didn't talk about any particular kind of breakdown. This is a complete assumption on your part. If someone asks for advice on what makes an interesting breakdown, it is totally fair and within my rights for me to give my personal opinion on what I like and don't like in a breakdown.

It's not even as if I've mentioned any producers who I think you should listen to, or criticised any producers I think make shit breakdowns. My points have been entirely generalised. How the fuck can you sarcastically say "Only copy the producers SYSTEM-J likes"?

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J At what point anywhere before I replied did he say he wanted to make any particular kind of music or any particular kind of breakdown?

This is Tranceaddict, so its completely fair to assume its trance. It's no different than if you went to a DnB forum, or Dubstep forum.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No, but I'm free to give my own opinion on what makes interesting and involving music. I think your objections have more to do with me criticising something you like than anything else.

You're touting your opinions more like they're facts, instead of what they are: subjective, biased and not relevant to everyone.

The best part is, you don't even realize it. If you do I can't imagine why you'd ask this:

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J How the fuck can you sarcastically say "Only copy the producers SYSTEM-J likes"?

for starters:

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J By all means, copy the shit out of people, but don't copy the shit out of formulaic, predictable, inane records under some mistaken assumption that you're thereby following the rules.

What you consider formulaic, predictable and inane is not the same for everyone else, which more or less makes your "advice" completely useless.

You also weren't being very general, you clearly made it seem like uplifting-style breakdowns (which I'll go ahead and assume you hate, which further explains why beatflux said what he said) are a bad idea unless they're rhythmless or don't introduce a main melody, despite those two things being defining characteristics of the genre.

It's really just the way you go about presenting your opinions in a way that makes them seem like they're more than that. They aren't.

Re: break / build-up

quote:

Originally posted by future_newbie This is the hardest part in the process for me. Making a strong, interesting and involving breakdown/build-up. My gaps are mainly "structural". I simply don't know how to make a build-up, what source should I use, which effects should I apply, how to start off the breakdown, with what, which filters are commonly used? I tried to make a build-up with some percussions and hats, but it sounded awful/delusional... Tried to construct a breakdown, but I ended up with something scordino and not consequential. Help me to start from somewhere please. Anything would be helpful: tuts, own productions, suggestions etc... How do you deal with it? What is your way of doing it? Please share it here!

Read this:

http://www.musicradar.com/futuremus...le-today-246545

It will help you, for sure. You can find it on google...
Good luck and dont be lazy to read it all.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux This is Tranceaddict, so its completely fair to assume its trance. It's no different than if you went to a DnB forum, or Dubstep forum.

This may come as a shock to you, but there are a lot of different kinds of trance and many different kinds of trance breakdown. And this may be even more of a shock, but I really love trance.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora You also weren't being very general, you clearly made it seem like uplifting-style breakdowns (which I'll go ahead and assume you hate, which further explains why beatflux said what he said) are a bad idea unless they're rhythmless or don't introduce a main melody, despite those two things being defining characteristics of the genre.

Right, because only uplifting trance has snare rolls, rhythmless interludes and introduces big melodies in breakdowns. You never find those things in any other genre, correct? Oh wait, those things have been widely used in dance music since the early '90s and probably before, and were played out and manipulative before "uplifting trance" even existed.

Again, I didn't even mention trance, let alone uplifting trance in my original post, even though I mentioned several other genres. You are both projecting violently. This is entirely about your personal tastes, and nothing to do with whether I've given good or suitable advice to the OP.

Breakdowns are governed by the rest of the track. If you aren't writing the headlining track of a set, the type of tracks everyone cans and a breakdown will accentuate the main drop. well I guess you need to think about why you are doing a breakdown. There is really no point in having something that is filler, a big breakdown then more filler.

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