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Which one has more groove?

Cryo groove example by cryophonik

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Which one has more groove? Cryo groove example by cryophonik

Can't tell. I can't tell what the difference is between M4B and Eddie's either.

In the first example, the drums and bass are played naturally with variation in the timing and accents, the bass is playing behind the groove, and they both are in sync with the congas.

In the second example, the kick drum is playing 4/floor, everything is hard-quantized, and the levels of the drums and bass are flattened to kill any accents. Congas are the same in both parts, but they feel off in the second, and the rigid feel of the drums and bass makes the bass feel like it is rushing rather than sitting in the pocket, particularly during the fast notes.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Which one has more groove? Cryo groove example by cryophonik

I listened to this a few in a row focusing entirely on the bassline and just started confusing myself.

Then I finally noticed that in the first sample, the velocity of the hat changes quite a bit, whereas in the second one it's a solid 'TAP TAP TAP TAP" sound.

E: Just saw your reply. I couldn't pinpoint in either example where the bass was playing in relation to the kick. I'll have to listen to it a few more times now that I've been told and see if I can actually notice the difference and pass a blind listening test.

I can hear it. First one in Cryos example definitely sounds better to me, it's got some funk to it.

Eddie - I don't care what that is, but it's awesome!

they both kinda suck but the first one sounds more real ie the second sounds like a robot. Drums are obviously not played and the bass line is kinda meh.

again people are confusing groove with being funky. This isn't groove. Just a type of groove.

here . Listen to that drum beat. If you can't hear that , quit.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Drums are obviously not played

Well, sorta. The part was played by a live drummer with an electronic kit and recorded to MIDI. The MIDI is triggering EZDrummer.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney

When I tap on my knees, focusing on the guitar, I notice the drummer's kick comes almost half a second after mine. Just an observation.

Edit: Also, now that I went and tried to record something live, I noticed I play a bit ahead of the metronome / other instruments, and just can't get my snare to land exactly where I want it. It's time to do some rhytmic training. If that doesn't fix it I actually am becoming quite sure I'm in some way retarded.

Here's a track I think has the ultimate groove, but some folk will think this is robotic quantisation.

Try and make a groove as good as this has at 2 minutes - the bass is very complex indeed using automated verb and what seems like a single offset note hit is in fact made up of several rapid note plays. Also notice the almost lazy hatz;

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Here's a track I think has the ultimate groove, but some folk will think this is robotic quantisation. Try and make a groove as good as this has at 2 minutes - the bass is very complex indeed using automated verb and what seems like a single offset note hit is in fact made up of several rapid note plays. Also notice the almost lazy hatz;

Sounds stiff. I wonder if people who just listen to just EDM think that rock is too loose or that something is off?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I agree with the last sentence of this - it's straight as well as having groove, but having said that, it't not amazing example of groove, and it;s a little too separated for me anyway.

What does separated mean? I know it's probably something I should know but...

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney thats the thing tho, that beat is way behind the pulse. That song is very far from quantized. If you quantized that beat, it just wouldn't feel the same. To the untrained ear it sounds like a metronome. I believe chopin was one of the first to put it on paper sort of the concept of groove. He had this thing called rubbato which was meant to mean borrowed time. If you don't know chopin, you would get this expansion and compression of time yet the point is that against the pulse , you are not speeding up or slowing down in terms of the actual say phrase.

Posted in this thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...74&pagenumber=3

Like this?

Roboto:




Rubbato:

Love this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJgFU3U4X_Y

Loop made from the beginning of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mn3...feature=related

This sounds like rubbato:



When I listen to this, I can feel the pull from the slowing of some parts. Especially right before a resolution, the song really tugs on you.

technically no. Rubato is a sort of distortion of time but say you had a metronome on for an 8 bar phrase, you would end up on the beat. Basically means borrowed time. Chopin pretty much pioneered that style of playing and he practised with a metronome religiously.

that video you just posted is just performance practice phrasing.

I'm studying the apache beat...

So I quantized it to compare it to unquantized, but then I realized that the hits that don't align with the transients will still be off. *derp moment*

I analyzed the first two bars of the beat.

Kick precedes the snare, and the ghost snare precedes the kick.

The hihat in the first bar drifts away from the grid and then drifts back to match up with the kick that precedes the 2nd snare.

Both the bongo and snare hit at nearly the exact same time on the 4.

Bongo is more intense in the 2 bar, than in the first.

The bongo plays with the beat on the first bar, and then more against it in the second bar.

Bongo was accented to match the snare on both the 2 and 4.

The most interesting thing is: at the start of both bars, the kick hat and bongo hit at the same time.

It's like both the drummer and bongo player all agree to play on time for just the first beat, get loose, and then
return back to an exact timing on the next downbeat.

There really isn't a particular quantized grid.

Pattern for the bongo in the second bar is almost the complete opposite of the first bar.

Hihat pattern goes like this(in 1/8ths): XX-X except for last(4th) repetition which goes like this: X--X.

Kick snare pattern in second bar has only one additional kick.

Reverb takes up the empty space between hits.

As far as just the pattern is concerned, not all of the hits are groovy. The ones that anticipate another hit are groove, like the snare hit that comes before the kick. The first kick isn't groovy, but then the second one is because its on the "and" of the beat, rather than on the 3.

This ain't be no simple beat people...

I just read this entire thread. Got some great info from it. Now let me make sure i understand "groove" correctly.

Let's take a simple drum pattern.

Kick
x---X---X---X---
Hi-Hat
X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-

Now assuming that everything is "hard" quantized then each sound will be triggered on a 16th.

"Groove" would be taking e.g: the Hi-Hat and having something like this occur.

Normal 1/16th Hard Quantized
X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-
X-.X-.X-.X-.X-.X-.

The (.) represents a fractional difference in the triggering of the hat while still remaining true to the tempo of the track giving a the feeling that hi hat is shuffling between normal quantization and the "groove" setting.

I'm assuming the key here (especially within a percussion track) is to have each sound answer to the other. So if one had steel drum, bongo, ride, and hat, then each would have a different "groove" giving the musical perception of movement.

Movement is groove. Groove is Movement?

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� Movement is groove. Groove is Movement?

Moving events around can be useful to achieve a good groove, but it's only one part of the recipe.

The best grooves in terms of a beat and bassline, can often contain lots of very subbtle sounds that people aren't consciously aware of.

These sounds have to be right if the groove is to be teased out. I've found a particular open hat (often a layer of hats in fact) with just the righr reverb will all of a sudden add substantial value to the groove.

Good groove often contains a lot of question and answer percs. Even the kick can do this.

For example each kick in a 4 measure loop can be a different velocity with the 4th kick being a slightly different sound which might mean a differnt pitch and slightly different room verb.

Use tiny little hi toms / blips on each kick where they get slightly louder towards loop end. Again you might find you can barely hear tyhem, but your senses will pick up on the groove.

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� I just read this entire thread. Got some great info from it. Now let me make sure i understand "groove" correctly. Let's take a simple drum pattern. Kick x---X---X---X--- Hi-Hat X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X- Now assuming that everything is "hard" quantized then each sound will be triggered on a 16th. "Groove" would be taking e.g: the Hi-Hat and having something like this occur. Normal 1/16th Hard Quantized X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X- X-.X-.X-.X-.X-.X-. The (.) represents a fractional difference in the triggering of the hat while still remaining true to the tempo of the track giving a the feeling that hi hat is shuffling between normal quantization and the "groove" setting. I'm assuming the key here (especially within a percussion track) is to have each sound answer to the other. So if one had steel drum, bongo, ride, and hat, then each would have a different "groove" giving the musical perception of movement. Movement is groove. Groove is Movement?

No, that would be swing, not groove. Swing is still hard quanzation.

It is something you learn. If your exposure to music is 90s + music, your ear won't hear it. It is something lie say pucking out chrds you have to develop. People tat listen to EDM and only EDM usually have 0 ability to hear it r replicate it.

Listen to non mainstream 70s funk, play an instrument and your ear will start being able to notice the subleties

No I hear it. I hear it quite well. I normally associate groove with the deep down rhythm of the track and I'm still learning how to do this via my own productions. Right now I can get more groove with percussion elements playing them live moreso than the sequencing out a pattern. I also feel it when playing some of the more major parts of the track- like the bass or the melody. Its difficult to do via the "drawing" method because everything usually lies right on the bar (1/8th - 1/16th). I've figured that applying a MPC Groove Patch will add that "shuffle" you were talking about (which in my opinion) helps with the "groove". But usually the groove comes much easier playing live.

no, see you aren't hearing. It is not just a horizontal event. It is both vertical and horizontal. Ie timing and the tension between all elements. So no, i don't think you are hearing it. IT is a spectrum, and i''m sure something quantized can groove and this is what you think is an actual groove but compared to a professional session drummer from the 70s, not even close.

well now I'm more confused. It sounds like there's groove, and then there's groove. Ahh. I'm just going to keep changing velocities, implement more question and answer elements, and apply some shuffle. Maybe by combining all these things I'll get more groove. Not that groove the other groove. LOL!!

There's the timing of individual instruments, and then there's the timing of the notes that may occur for two or more instruments.


X...X...X...X...Kick

That could have a specific timing for the kick pattern.

X...X...X...X...Kick
....O.......O...Snare

How the snare hit relates to the kick's timing is a different aspect, because the snare could either be behind, ahead, or exactly on the kick.

Most producers won't bother with timing, or they will quantize everything to one type of midi groove, so the second type of "groove" would be non existent.

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� well now I'm more confused. It sounds like there's groove, and then there's groove. Ahh. I'm just going to keep changing velocities, implement more question and answer elements, and apply some shuffle. Maybe by combining all these things I'll get more groove. Not that groove the other groove. LOL!!

see i think the problem is that like say looking at your concert schedule., all EDM.

You won't ever develop an ear for groove listening to modern EDM. And it is something you will have to develop in order to hear it in a way that you understand why it sounds the way it sounds.

Like why does this sound rushed or relaxed. The only way you get that sort of intuition is by listening and playing music. Live music.

I think alot of loops people use are made by people that have already made it groove so it sort of translates to the track. It is a lame way but thats usually why some tracks groove as I honestly don't know too many EDM artists that are musicians in the traditional sense. Not that EDM producers aren't musicians. I think they are. Its just that they lack a certain training just like a drummer that only does drums would not know anything about production.

I made two loops. One has the hihats shuffled around a bit, the other one doesn't. Kick and Snare are straight on.


Shuffled:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5oaomtts4xgpq93

Not:
http://www.mediafire.com/?38i2542qelad59l

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