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Love it or leave it, right?

http://www.businessinsider.com/ndaa...an-ever-2011-12

"It turns out that destroying the American democratic republic was easy to accomplish, historians will write someday. Simply get the three major cable news networks to blather on about useless bull**** for a few days, while legislators meet in secret behind closed doors to rush through the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 (NDAA), and its evil twin sister, the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), which is a clever name for an Internet censorship bill straight out of an Orwellian nightmare."

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I meant that the NDAA, itself, has existed for almost 50 years; I wasn't exactly responding to your point. Because I don't think it's an invalid point to think that the authorities can find a way to do just about anything they want these days. The importance of these recent amendments, which as of today, our President rescinded his threat to veto, is that nobody can contest them in the court of law. Ever. If you are accused of being a terrorist or of supporting terrorist, our government will now be able to send their military police after you to hold you until the "end of hostilities". That is, until America wins the war on terror. Apparently, nobody deserves their day in court.

Yeah, it's disgusting. I don't even necessarily think we'll see them using this quickly and to the extent a lot of alarmists are hinting at, but just look at the Patriot Act; shit like this is abused and extremely hard to get rid of once it's made law.

Pretty much. Look, I'm not disagreeing with you that this legislation in thoery violates the rights of certain individuals who belong to this society. The fact of the matter is, that this legislation is not meant to protect the individual, but to protect the society. I wholeheartedly understand the points you're trying to make, but the fact of the matter is, that although these laws may interfere with the occasional individual's rights, they do in fact protect the rights of the masses. If 100% of terrorist attacks on airline travel in the US were enacted by Arabs, do you honestly think it is so unspeakable to pass laws which restrict free passage for all Arabs? I mean most Arabs are okay, so we should let them all pass through without restriction just because their specific ideology has been found to be increasingly high risk for terrorist activity.

Bleeding heart liberals really need to take a step back and take a look at the rights of the 150+ citizens who are boarding their flight, and not the 1 Arab who is detained for 5 minutes to investigate more thoroughly.

When a 21 year old white university student from Indiana hijacks a plane and slams it into a skyscraper in NYC, then you can talk about individual freedoms when detaining white passengers from mass air transit.

This isn't about racial profiling though. Take it a dozen steps farther. This is about our government, through enforcement by its military, to detain these very Arab suspects and never, ever assess the evidence that lead authorities to suspect them in the first place. To lock them away and throw away the key.

I know this is dramatic as fuck, so I don't blame your tone in the least, but we pulled our troops out of Iraq in order to turn every city in our country into Baghdad. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On This isn't about racial profiling though. Take it a dozen steps farther. This is about our government, through enforcement by its military, to detain these very Arab suspects and never, ever assess the evidence that lead authorities to suspect them in the first place. To lock them away and throw away the key. I know this is dramatic as fuck, so I don't blame your tone in the least, but we pulled our troops out of Iraq in order to turn every city in our country into Baghdad. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

That's because it is ridiculous. Obviously I know fuckall about the intelligence practices of the US government, but I really don't think they're picking random Arabs off the street and holding them indefinitely just because they're Arab.

It's not like the US military are going door to door and rounding up all Arab Americans and shipping to Guantanamo Bay just because they don't like their turbans.

THANK YOU 6079

It's the precedent that's the most shocking and disturbing thing at this point. Yeah, there's a lot of out there pumped up talk about the government turning us into a police state overnight, but if that gets other people aware of what's happening in their own government I'm all for it.

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Originally posted by enydo It's the precedent that's the most shocking and disturbing thing at this point. Yeah, there's a lot of out there pumped up talk about the government turning us into a police state overnight, but if that gets other people aware of what's happening in their own government I'm all for it.

Right, but that's a drastic exaggeration of the truth.

As for the either loving it or leaving it, the fucking point of a constitutional republic - or any form of democracy for that matter - is in absolute contradiction to loving it or leaving it. The point is that the people can change it; They can form it to their will. Do you legitimately believe that the majority of American citizens believe it is fair to hold other US citizens without trial in their own country? I know our abysmal electorate voted in favour of it, but you are a fool if you're convinced that's representative of the citizenship. I refuse to believe the majority of Americans are in favor of this, and people should be very, very angry. Next month, that is, when it's finally reported on major news networks.

An opinion piece from a few days ago:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/o...+forever&st=cse

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Do you legitimately believe that the majority of American citizens believe it is fair to hold other US citizens without trial in their own country? I know our abysmal electorate voted in favour of it, but you are a fool if you're convinced that's representative of the citizenship. I refuse to believe the majority of Americans are in favor of this, and people should be very, very angry. Next month, that is, when it's finally reported on major news networks.

While I agree with you, I think you're idealizing the average American citizen a bit too highly. And yes, you're absolutely right that in a republic such as the USA it is the status quo for the "average citizen" to choose the type of leader they want for their country. The unfortunate fact though, as I'm sure you're quite aware of, is that the majority of this country does not think as you or I do. The majority of this country does believe that Arabs are the enemy.

I do agree with you to a certain extent. Yes, 9 times out of 10 detaining an Arab citizen for the previously pointed out reasons is unwarranted, but it is the 1/10 chance that makes this warranted in the eyes of the legislature. Saving 150+ lives absolutely trumps inconveniencing 1 single person.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 You honestly think that just because 100% of the major air disasters that have been caused by terrorism were caused by Islamic perpetrators, has absolutely no justification on detaining certain individuals who might fit the general description of those types of individuals?

Ah, but in saying "Islamic perpetrators", you're immediately lumping Islamic extremists in with normal, everyday Muslims, who are, in reality, no different from you and me. I happen to know a few, and they all seem like pretty normal, upstanding folk. Of course, they are Canadian Muslims, so what the hell do I know?

And thus begins the slippery slope.

There are white supremacists (might even venture to call them "Christian extremists") a plenty out there in America, but I don't see the U.S. enacting laws that allow for indefinite detention sans lawyer or trial, for that particular shade of terrorist (a.k.a. "crazy white motherfuckers").

We all know what kind of "terrorist" the gubmint's going after in this case - your tunnel vision alone is indication enough.

It isn't that the U.S. Government is out to get the average U.S. citizen, it's that they're gradually redefining who the average U.S. citizen is. When Mr. Arshad, who owns a two-story, 4-bedroom house in the suburbs, works in sysadmin at the Home Depot branch office in his city, drives a Grand Caravan and has 2 kids in college, suddenly finds Federal Agents showing up on his doorstep because his paranoid, over-medicated, psychotic neighbour phones him in on "suspicion" - read: "that brown fucker who I've said all of two words to in the 8 years we've lived across the street from each other was talking to my wife" (who, for the past 5 years, has actually been fucking the basketball coach at the high school the kids graduated from) - of terrorism...hey, there's that slippery slope again.

And given the current anti-Muslim sentiment being fostered in much of the U.S. these days, the above scenario is a helluva lot more likely to take place than your idiotic Hasidic Jew supposition.

But hey,someone has to protect all those God-fearing, Republican, Lowe's-boycotting, hate-my-goddamned-neighbour-because-he-has-more-stuff-than-me, kids-pregnant-at-15, All-American Christians from those evil Communi...I mean, Muslims, amirite?

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Originally posted by PivotTechno Ah, but you're confusing Islamic extremists with normal, everyday Muslims, who are, in reality, no different from you and me. I happen to know a few, and they all seem like pretty normal, upstanding folk. Of course, they are Canadian Muslims, so what the hell do I know? And thus begins the slippery slope. There are white supremacists (might even venture to call them "Christian extremists") a plenty out there in America, but I don't see the U.S. enacting laws that allow for indefinite detention sans lawyer or trial, for that particular shade of terrorist (a.k.a. "crazy white motherfuckers"). We all know what kind of "terrorist" the gubmint's going after in this case - your tunnel vision alone is indication enough. It isn't that the U.S. Government is out to get the average U.S. citizen, it's that they're gradually redefining who the average U.S. citizen is. When Mr. Arshad, who owns a two-story, 4-bedroom house in the suburbs, works in sysadmin at the Home Depot branch office in his city, drives a Grand Caravan and has 2 kids in college, suddenly finds Federal Agents showing up on his doorstep because his paranoid, over-medicated, psychotic neighbour phones him in on "suspicion" - read: "that brown fucker who I don't know from a hole in the wall was talking to my wife" (who, for the past 5 years, has actually been fucking the basketball coach at the high school the kids graduated from) - of terrorism...hey, there's that slippery slope again. And given the current anti-Muslim sentiment being fostered in much of the U.S. these days, the above scenario is a helluva lot more likely to take place than your idiotic Hasidic Jew supposition. But hey,someone has to protect all those God-fearing, Republican, Lowe's-boycotting, hate-my-goddamned-neighbour-because-he-has-more-stuff-than-me, kids-pregnant-at-15, All-American Christians from those evil Communi...I mean, Muslims, amirite?

Responses like these are the reason about .1% of Canadian views on American politics can be taken seriously in a discussion.

If your talents for producing hyperbole were half as powerful as your talents for producing mindless suppositions from someone who is quite obviously biased against the entire American country, then maybe your opinions would be warranted in a discussion of this nature.

This space is intentionally left blank.

100% of major terrorist attacks on the US in the past 15 years were perpetrated by Muslims. BETTER STILL GIVE EQUAL CONSIDERATION TO ALL RACES THOUGH. I LIVE IN CANADA AND THERE'S A THIN VEIL OF DISCREPANCY WHERE I CAN CRITICIZE AMERICAN POLITICS, SO OBVIOUSLY I'M GOING TO JUMP AT THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

[REDACTED]

At least there is handful of sane politicians there that are against this bill.

The Bill of Rights also protects Americans rights to own a handgun. WE ALL KNOW 100% OF AMERICAN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO OWN AND USE A HANDGUN AS THEY SEE PLEASED.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 100% of major terrorist attacks on the US in the past 15 years were perpetrated by Muslims. BETTER STILL GIVE EQUAL CONSIDERATION TO ALL RACES THOUGH. I LIVE IN CANADA AND THERE'S A THIN VEIL OF DISCREPANCY WHERE I CAN CRITICIZE AMERICAN POLITICS, SO OBVIOUSLY I'M GOING TO JUMP AT THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

By that same logic, ALL OF THE TERRORIST ACTS THAT HAVE OCCURRED SINCE 9/11, 2001 HAVE BEEN DUE TO AN INEFFICIENCY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ADEQUATELY COMBAT SUCH MEASURES, AND MUST BE EXTENDED FORTHWITH TO APPLY TO ALL US CITIZENS IN THEIR VERY COUNTRY, THEREBY UNDERMINING THEIR SOVEREIGNTY AS A DIVERSE POPULOUS OF MULTINATIONALS AS WELL AS UNDERMINING THE VERY AUTHORITY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THEIR POLICE FORCES TO CONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS OF SURREPTITIOUS ACTIVITIES.

Oh wait, there haven't been any terrorist acts on US soil since 2001. I guess they're merely addressing our already bloated prison system by assigning the military to it. Home of the free and safe.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Responses like these are the reason about .1% of Canadian views on American politics can be taken seriously in a discussion. If your talents for producing hyperbole were half as powerful as your talents for producing mindless suppositions from someone who is quite obviously biased against the entire American country, then maybe your opinions would be warranted in a discussion of this nature.

Good effort (absolute shite, actually) in trying to dust me off, but I don't see you refuting any of what I've said.

How is the scenario I detailed (basketball coach porking aside) hyperbole when you yourself just stated that you feel the majority of the country actually buys into the notion that Muslims (and 'Arabs' and 'Muslims' are not interchangable terms, you twat) are the enemy?

Is the U.S. redefining who the average U.S. citizen is with this new enactment, or not?

Just answer the questions, Claire!

Right, and there weren't any major terrorist actions on mass transit in the 10 years prior to 9/11 either. That must mean that any action to preemptively thwart 9/11 would have been completely unwarranted and unconstitutional. LONG LIVE THE RIGHTS OF THE COVERT TERRORIST.

HEY! TERRORISTS STARTED THIS COUNTRY! /Tea Party

Oh wait...

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Originally posted by PivotTechno

Yeah? When's the last time you saw a non-Muslim Arab person you unbelievable bellend. Regardless, I'm done responding to you, because Hal actually has logical points to be made, unlike your painfully obvious bias against the US.

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