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-- Whats your view on September 11
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quote:

Originally posted by quddha It is obvious that you've become a victim of selective media, and the government's mastery of what they want you to know. There is very important history that the news always fail to report, as proven in your lack of knowledge about the history of Albanians, and the Vietnamese.

I agree... A lot of people here are blinded by the media that is presented to them. Learn the details before assuming that the crap on the boob tube is fact. Open your mind... not just your eyes...


btw... good post Jazz

quote:

Originally posted by drewfactor I can't believe what people are saying in here. The anti-American sentiment sickens me. Do you think that we would live the way we do and reap all the benefits of living in our very comfy western lives if it were not for the US? I highly doubt it. America did not involve itself in Vietnam for the sake of itself but to protect it from the evil grip of communism. America helped the muslims (Albanians) who were being slaughtered by Milosevic's ethnic cleansing. Some people need to see things from another point of view than the GLobe and Mail.

look, i'm not going to get into a long debate about this online... i'm involved in enough online discussions re: politics/issues already, i really don't have enough time or energy to get into another one... you can label me anti-american and assume that's my justification for what i say... it allows you to ignore the issues and facts that i raise and not confront them... there are many things that the united states has done over the years that most people are largely unaware of... these are not "conspiracy theories" or "anti-american propaganda"... they are actual historical events, if you don't believe me look them up for yourself and do some research... read some books about these issues...

i listed them in my first email so that anyone who doubts these things can look them up for themselves, but i'll list some of them again: vietnam/cambodia, east timor, chile, nicaragua... i'm guessing you might not know much about east timor, chile or nicaragua, most people don't - i didn't until i made a conscious effort to learn more about political theory and political history... most americans don't know about these events and this is their own country, their own government that is involved... that is very telling when you think about it... before i made this conscious effort i probably had a somewhat similar perception as yours of events and issues...

many people have a perception of what vietnam was all about, and they have a basic knowledge of it... but there is a lot more you probably don't know... as more classified information is being declassified it is becoming increasingly evident that the US had the opportunity to end the vietnam war in 1968 under the Johnson administration... 1968 was however, also the year of the US presidential elections and the republican candidate, richard nixon, was fearful that a successful conclusion to the peace talks would damage his own chances of winning due to the anti-war climate that was developing in the US... kissinger was involved in the 1968 negotiations, however he was not part of the government at that time and was looking for a way to secure a place in the future government... kissinger was able to warn presidential candidate nixon that the united states was proposing a bombing halt of north vietnam... nixon in turn counselled the south vietnamese government to reject these terms, because if he won the presidential election a better deal would be offered... so when johnson ordered a bombing halt on the 31st October, the south vietnamese (the U.S. ally) responded by boycotting talks... nixon was duly elected and kissinger was promoted within his administration...

the nixon administration continued the vietnam war for another 5 years before finalizing a peace agreement, which was almost exactly the same as the agreement offered in 1968... during that period tens of thousands of innocent vietnamese and cambodians, as well as thousands of troops from both sides were needlessly killed due to U.S. political games...

also during the vietnam war, the U.S. illegally bombed cambodia - a non participant & neutral side during the war - because north vietnamese troops had moved into cambodia... the U.S. had no legal right to do this, it was against international law, so they conducted these bombings of cambodia in secret... without the approval of congress, violating the U.S. constitution... the carpet bombings and military campaign in cambodia killed thousands of innocent people and set off a chain of events that plunged the country into absolute chaos and resulted in somewhere between 1 - 2 million cambodian deaths (the killing fields which you may have heard of)... it's a very complicated chain of events that i'm not going to go into here, but there is an abundance of information available...

when i talk about Vietnam, i am not arguing regarding the morality and ethics of the whole conflict - but for specific events within the vietnam war that are immoral and unethical... just because the U.S. decided to involve themselves in this war did not give them the right to conduct this war in an illegal manner that needlessly killed thousands of innocent people...

despite what you may believe, i'm not "anti-american"... i'm pro morality and pro ethics... i apply the same moral code to any and all countries, as should be the case... no country should be allowed to ignore human rights, ethical standards and international law, no excuses... i don't believe that the U.S. deserved to be attacked on 9/11, and i don't believe that the victims of 9/11 were to blame... i do believe that we need to be better informed about the reality of recent political history so that we are able to form rational, logical and informed opinions on our current situation...

p.s. for anyone looking to learn a bit more about the issues within the american society and ideology (not so much foreign policy), i highly recommend the book "stupid white men" by michael moore... it has been (and still is) on the best seller list in both the U.S. and Canada for along time... it's an easy, quick, humorous read...

or if you're too lazy or too busy to pick up the book, consider checking out his new movie "bowling for columbine"... opens Oct.11 i believe... also humorous, and i'm pretty sure most would enjoy it... not your typical boring, educational movie at all...

thanx for your morning history lesson mate, and yea i think i'll go catch the flick when it's up next month.

hmmm...

I didn't expect to get such a reaction from anyone. That's alright...I appreciate noone bashing me personally, because I can't say my personal opinions are totally in line with the predominant attitude of the people on this board. At the same time, I admit I probably don't know nearly as much about the facts of historical conflicts involving the US and other countries as many of you who have made comments. The thing is, I am finding that more and more it is almost trendy to hate America, and so many people have little to no reason to support it. Many people on this board know the issues and can state why they disagree with American foreign policy etc...I'm not talking about you. It's this sheer ignorant hatred for the states among young people, especially students, that I see people buying into...in much the same way people seem to think I buy into CNN or pro-American propaganda. Trust me I don't. My comments about the Albanians and Viet Nam weren't really thought through, I admit, but it provided a nice contrast alot of the other ignorant comments in here. I agree that the US has not been perfect regarding their foreign policy or human rights and they can be very self centered as a nation. So, should we hate Britain or France because of their brutal colonial history? I don't think so. I just think that people go overboard with their hatred for America and it seems to be a trendy thing to do...like.."hey look at me, I'm anti-establishment, fuck America and everything it stands for..." Ok I'm just being facetious(sp?)...but does anyone even agree with me a bit?

Yes it is true. Some people are like that, and just hate America for being America, and think its become the cool thing to do if you're not American, and then they find reasons to hate them. But that's backwards. You have to become informed on the issues, and make your decision based off that.

However, I don't have HATE, just alot of criticism. The last thing we need in this world is hate.

In reality, I'm just really scared of a large-scale conflict erupting, and more terrorist actions hitting North American soil. I actually think there are better solutions than war, I may be dreaming...

I dont hate america....the people are nice..but its goevernment is immature and BS.

http://www.reuters.com/news_article...StoryID=1440192

that's all i have to say....


as for the sept. 11th victims well my condolences go out to the frinds and family of them. since something so horrible like that or anyting horrible for that matter should happen to innocent people.

quote:

In an interview with Newsweek magazine done on Monday, the Nobel Peace laureate criticized the United States for acting unilaterally and undermining the United Nations as a forum for settling international disputes. He said U.S. hardline policies aimed to please American oil and arms companies. "If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace." ...snip... Mandela said Bush and his staunchest ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, had given no evidence to back their weapons claims against Iraq. "But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that," Mandela said. Mandela said while it was not his personal view, others believed there was an element of racism behind Washington's unilateral policies. "Many people say quietly, but they don't have the courage to stand up and say publicly, that when there were white (U.N.) secretaries-general you didn't find this question of the United States and Britain going out of the United Nations," he said. "But now that you've had black secretaries-general like...Kofi Annan, they do not respect the United Nations. They have contempt for it," Mandela added.

pearls of wisdom, to say the least...

i second that...he has quoted what a lot of people around that world have thought/talked about...

i think america is too hasty and overzealous when it comes to dishing out revenge for what happened on 9/11. you'd think the government might be a bit more objective about all this, but they seem bent on war.

blood for blood. that seems to be what america wants so badly. just look at this whole fiasco with maj. harry schmidt dropping a bomb on 4 canadians. why? that is a question he must answer before the courts. but it seems to me that he and his co-pilot were overzealous, trigger-happy cowboys just itching to bomb something. shoot first, ask questions later. america is so hungry for revenge, that some of the people just aren't thinking straight.

this war on iraq is EXACTLY the kind of foreign policy that the rest of the world frowns upon, and no doubt gives another reason for terrorists carry out atrocities like the one on september 11.

by no means am i giving excuses for what the terrorists did that day. i don't think violence is the answer to anything. that applies to america as well.

Again people, you don't realise the situation here. Apparently Iraq is really close to building a nuclear bomb.

I don't know about you, but I believe it's better to have a war now, with only side having a nuke(which they are NOT going to use), rather than having a war with two sides having nukes - and possibility of both using it.

IMHO, The war with Arabs in that region is inevitable.

^^^^^^^^^ No offence but what eveidence do u have to support the accusation that they are building and Atomic bomb? that is the same as bush telling the world that they have "evidence" they are producing weapons of mass destruction. To date, I have seen NO photos of mass destruction, no video footage of the making of "weapons of mass destruction". In other words, Bush has presented NO evidence to the world that Saddam is building weapons AT ALL. All I hear is "Iraq is building weapons of mass destruction". That seriously does not tell me jack shit. I have seen No physical evidence of this. That is just my peice. but seeing is believing.

Although I agree that a nation's people should be informed with hard evidence against Iraq before launching an attack, could much of this info be classified? I mean, it's probably not in America's best interest to spill the beans on everything they know about what Saddam is doing. Just a thought. There was plenty of evidence against Bin Laden before Sept. 11 to incriminate him against various terrorist attacks (USS Cole bombing, previous WTC bombing, the embassy bombings in Africa etc..) and it was too late before he struck on Sept 11. America was damned for waiting too long and not adequetly protecting the American people. There is indisputable evidence that Saddam has used and is willing to use weapons of mass destruction, like the chemical weapons he used against the Kurds. Saddam is a Lunatic, completely out of control, and if he gets his hands on a nuclear weapon we're all fucked. Now America wants to take pre-emptive action against this very real threat and they have their hands tied behind their back, they're damned if they do. I remember hearing a good analogy: "if the war on terrorism is to be a success, we can't go around swatting the mosquitos (i.e.individual terrorists and their cells) we need to drain the swamps (i.e. the despots and rogue states like Iraq who harbour the terrorists, weapons, and other means of destruction). People might disagree, but that just makes a lot of sense to me.

As an aside, did anyone hear much about that Mohammed Mansour Jabarrah guy? He went to my high school! He's a year younger than I, but it just goes to show you. Here's a guy who orchestrated plans to bomb embassies in Singapore, and he's from right here! Well, he immigrated from Iraq, but it just goes to show you how close this can hit home.

quote:

Originally posted by fieroavian pearls of wisdom, to say the least...

uhmm... well I have mad props for Mandela, but when it comes to Economy he don't know jack about it! sorry to say but it's true! so even though I hate to admit it I think Bush is right to start a war with Iraq!

quote:

Originally posted by E*Master ^^^^^^^^^ No offence but what eveidence do u have to support the accusation that they are building and Atomic bomb? that is the same as bush telling the world that they have "evidence" they are producing weapons of mass destruction. To date, I have seen NO photos of mass destruction, no video footage of the making of "weapons of mass destruction". In other words, Bush has presented NO evidence to the world that Saddam is building weapons AT ALL. All I hear is "Iraq is building weapons of mass destruction". That seriously does not tell me jack shit. I have seen No physical evidence of this. That is just my peice. but seeing is believing.

well dear E-Master I hate to disagree with you, but remember a little thing called the "H bomb" that Russia build first and blew up? Did the Americans have evidence of Russians building it? NO! But when it blew up they were shitting their pants!

LOL

argh.... Iraq does not have the ability to build a nuke. If they were doing it, Israel would've bomb them like they did in the 80's because they were effectivly on the way of doing so.

The Saddam regime asked the US administration to come and inspect all they wanted, everywhere!, in return the US/UK has to promise that they would end their sanctions after the inspections. The US doesn't want the sanctions to end (ever?) so all they said about the offer was it was total BS because Iraq would never let them inspect?!!?!!

Fucking arrogant US, go there and inspect the god damn country and if Iraq refuses to let themselves get inspected well THEN tell the whole world "You see Irak don't want us to inspect blablabla"...

the US could've killed Saddam in the gulf war but didn't, so they left him there for a future war...

Now look at Osama ben Laden, something tells me they know NOW where he's hiding but don't do shit... leaving him like a joker, so they have a pretext for a futur war...

total BS

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek argh.... Iraq does not have the ability to build a nuke. If they were doing it, Israel would've bomb them like they did in the 80's because they were effectivly on the way of doing so. The Saddam regime asked the US administration to come and inspect all they wanted, everywhere!, in return the US/UK has to promise that they would end their sanctions after the inspections. The US doesn't want the sanctions to end (ever?) so all they said about the offer was it was total BS because Iraq would never let them inspect?!!?!! Fucking arrogant US, go there and inspect the god damn country and if Iraq refuses to let themselves get inspected well THEN tell the whole world "You see Irak don't want us to inspect blablabla"... the US could've killed Saddam in the gulf war but didn't, so they left him there for a future war... Now look at Osama ben Laden, something tells me they know NOW where he's hiding but don't do shit... leaving him like a joker, so they have a pretext for a futur war... total BS

couldnt have said it better

quote:

Originally posted by trancearmada well dear E-Master I hate to disagree with you, but remember a little thing called the "H bomb" that Russia build first and blew up? Did the Americans have evidence of Russians building it? NO! But when it blew up they were shitting their pants! LOL

LOL yeah I remember that. but still, America is making some accusations. It's just that I like to be convinced with HARD Facts (like with eveything in my life, I don't believe everything ppl tell me). But thee is a 50/50 chance they might be building some heavy weapons. but then again I also think that the USA wants to have control of the oil fields in Iraq since (from what I can remember) was all started by the oil that iraq has. Dunno if that is tru tho

having an extra oil reserve controlled by a puppet regime is always cool

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek having an extra oil reserve controlled by a puppet regime is always cool

LOL

quote:

The Saddam regime asked the US administration to come and inspect all they wanted, everywhere!, in return the US/UK has to promise that they would end their sanctions after the inspections. The US doesn't want the sanctions to end (ever?) so all they said about the offer was it was total BS because Iraq would never let them inspect?!!?!! Fucking arrogant US, go there and inspect the god damn country and if Iraq refuses to let themselves get inspected well THEN tell the whole world "You see Irak don't want us to inspect blablabla"...

as I said before...

and today:

quote:

Annan said Iraq is ready to open immediate talks on the technicalities of the inspectors' return. Iraq's letter said it wanted "to complete the implementation of relevant Security Council resolutions and to remove any doubts that Iraq still possesses weapons of mass destruction." ... The U.S. administration quickly dismissed the offer, saying Iraq was only moving in order to avoid action by the Council. ...

the rest here: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/16/iraq_UN020916

only time will tell how the US will turn this situation around so they can start bombing Iraq again.

When US makes up its mind, it's going to happen, with the world's support or approval or without - it doesn't make a difference to them.

Just don't plan your winter vacation in Iraq...

quote:

Originally posted by brunette When US makes up its mind, it's going to happen, with the world's support or approval or without - it doesn't make a difference to them.

wut are they, BULLIES?!

quote:

Just don't plan your winter vacation in Iraq...

rest assured i won't go visit middle east for the decades to come.

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