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-- So, why exactly is everybody bi#ching about Logic?
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I think the moans to be honest are a bit over exaggerated.

It's my main daw and even though I'm proficient on Cubase and PTHD, logic still wins.

It's main downfall is the multicore CPU issue, as this was just a massive oversight programming wise but they are not going to fix it in 9. It is somewhat offset by the fact that logic is very efficient anyway (moreso than cubase on Mac) but if you're someone that really needs advance core provisioning then it is certainly a setback.

I don't find the automation that much of pain at all. It writes and reads just fine on my system and although the click to make/move points has a learning curve, once you get it down it all makes sense.

For all the midi functions I need it for, it's just fine. Richie is doing really gay, I mean advanced, things with his midi routing so it can be a pain but I've always been use to the using an FX on the instrument insert thing so it doesn't bother me. But certainly, if you're used to linking all sorts of parameters together like in ableton, then it will seem really obtuse and clunky.

With any mac primarily for audio, you should be using snow leopard. ML has no benefit whatsoever for our uses.

I think the main thing I really like about logic is the arrange page and mixer views are the best of any DAW out there. It really makes it a pleasure to use, and that in turn helps my productivity.

Overall, Logic is a bargain at $200 and if they finally fully do away with some of the old legacy things left over like environment patching, insert instruments for FX and most importantly fix the CPU core bug, then Logic X will be the new standard.

I honestly think Steinberg will be in serious trouble if they get the next logic right; incredible DAW that already outpaces cubase at half the money.

Just as an FYI, I bought my MBA with Mountain Lion installed and it seems fine to me. I have no intentions of going back to an older OS (if that's even possible - don't know, don't care). As I stated above, I've lost all interest in Logic and I've pretty much lost interest in the collab anyway (for totally unrelated reasons - the guy's more of a newb that I originally thought and he pirates most of his software, including stuff that I've been a beta tester for).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN ... I honestly think Steinberg will be in serious trouble if they get the next logic right; incredible DAW that already outpaces cubase at half the money.

NOT EVERYONE USES MAC
LOL

Oh please....

quote:

Originally posted by jayxthekoolest NOT EVERYONE USES MAC LOL

Only poor peoples don't use macs bro.

logic isn't perfect but you can use ableton, and DP 8 is turning out to be like cubase but good. The thing is that i don't spend any time maintaning my system. And logic can do everything. The automation unlike midi is good. It is very stable. The environment is great for certain midi uses.

it really is not bad. Just suited for certain things. But there isn't anything you can't do in logic you can do in any other daw.

I am scared to go back to pc and the registry and that pain the in the ass. And with windows 8, who fucking knows.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney logic isn't perfect but you can use ableton, and DP 8 is turning out to be like cubase but good. The thing is that i don't spend any time maintaning my system. And logic can do everything. The automation unlike midi is good. It is very stable. The environment is great for certain midi uses. it really is not bad. Just suited for certain things. But there isn't anything you can't do in logic you can do in any other daw. I am scared to go back to pc and the registry and that pain the in the ass. And with windows 8, who fucking knows.

What about your girl, what does she use?

she doesn't know how to change file names. All her focus is just on singing.

Hehehe! I would't mind stretching her vocal pipes mate!

Classy

Yo, another fucking troll. I mean, if we could just start banning some of these assholes instantly it would help keep conversation from getting derailed. What a god damn nuisance.

Either way, the complaining is exaggerated. I don't hear people who are finishing club ready tracks or their friends complaining about Logic, the basic fact of the matter is that plenty of work gets done every day in Logic and if you are really into MIDI and performance, the obvious answer is Ableton, but for a studio DAW it's wonderful. I think it's funny how many people complain about it are just production trolls who want to find little things to nitpick about to make themselves seem like they know what the fuck they are talking about. I have however, heard some people (Randy Boyer for one) mention that it has the most ideal audio and that your tracks will never sound proper without it (not a direct quote, and from many years ago) which I found to be a ridiculous considering the average drunk stoned club goer isn't going to stop tripping for a moment and go "Oh, Logic summing. This track is going to be wonderful" and starts tripping again.

But then again I've never used it extensively. Only studio mentors I've had over the years have, and for the thousands of questions I've asked them, especially about DAW, the discussion of avoiding Logic for any major issue never came to light, if anything the fact that you can do everything in the box (aside from obvious things like sample packs) made it seem nice. Since it's so old and apparently buggy from where people say here, I'd just stick with Ableton 8.

Thats BS indeed, Logic doesn't sound better, all 32bit float daws sound equal
FFS people should stop spreading this BS hearsay if they don't know what they're talking about. And yes the ad hominim " watch me getting ultrablunt at you" shit here should stop too, it's killing the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Evolve140 Yo, another fucking troll. I mean, if we could just start banning some of these assholes instantly it would help keep conversation from getting derailed. What a god damn nuisance. Either way, the complaining is exaggerated. I don't hear people who are finishing club ready tracks or their friends complaining about Logic, the basic fact of the matter is that plenty of work gets done every day in Logic and if you are really into MIDI and performance, the obvious answer is Ableton, but for a studio DAW it's wonderful. I think it's funny how many people complain about it are just production trolls who want to find little things to nitpick about to make themselves seem like they know what the fuck they are talking about. I have however, heard some people (Randy Boyer for one) mention that it has the most ideal audio and that your tracks will never sound proper without it (not a direct quote, and from many years ago) which I found to be a ridiculous considering the average drunk stoned club goer isn't going to stop tripping for a moment and go "Oh, Logic summing. This track is going to be wonderful" and starts tripping again. But then again I've never used it extensively. Only studio mentors I've had over the years have, and for the thousands of questions I've asked them, especially about DAW, the discussion of avoiding Logic for any major issue never came to light, if anything the fact that you can do everything in the box (aside from obvious things like sample packs) made it seem nice. Since it's so old and apparently buggy from where people say here, I'd just stick with Ableton 8.

they don't null when you start adding channels , groups and complicated mixes. Would not say it is something that sounds better or worse but you aren't getting the same output.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney they don't null when you start adding channels , groups and complicated mixes. Would not say it is something that sounds better or worse but you aren't getting the same output.

This. Not every DAW just adds up the noise as straightforward as one would expect. Thus there are minute differences. There are some DAW's in which it is blatantly obvious they do something with the audio which sometimes depends on settings (Reason and Ableton for example), or at other times is kept completely under the hood (Older versions of Reason for example).

Ok, probably right, but let's rephrase then, all CURRENT daws that support 32bit float, on unity gain, without tinkering with automation, EQ, plugins or subgroups, will summ the same

Older daws might have been supporting only 24bit, or even 16bit, had issues with automation like "zipper noise" or built in saturation curves to adress internal clipping before the 24/32bit landmark.

A daw is not magical, its just math, if a daw can't summ clean and straightforward it's got a design issue.

every engineer ive ever met says pro tools sums more "true" than any other daw...

is there any truth to that?

quote:

Originally posted by Allied Nations every engineer ive ever met says pro tools sums more "true" than any other daw... is there any truth to that?

No. The "summing" engine is nothing more than the DAW adding together numbers. Computers don't mess this up. Refer to Raphie's post.

quote:

Originally posted by jayxthekoolest No. The "summing" engine is nothing more than the DAW adding together numbers. Computers don't mess this up. Refer to Raphie's post.

ok but then how does the summ change with EQ + efx etc? if i put the same waves comp onto a protools channel as i do an ableton channel whats the difference there? raphies post only covers the most basic of summing, which in all honesty i dont think anyone is doing

maybe on paper its the same but if i put the same stems into ableton as i do into protools no nothing on top it still sounds different in protools

[shit sentence alert]
Honestly I think it's quite unlikely that if 10 stems or so summed down into a DAW and then null-tested against sums done by other sequencers will result in a completely nulled wave file.[/shit sentence alert]

If it's a perceivable difference or not is up for debate .

Bloody foreign languages.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller [shit sentence alert] Honestly I think it's quite unlikely that if 10 stems or so summed down into a DAW and then null-tested against sums done by other sequencers will result in a completely nulled wave file.[/shit sentence alert] If it's a perceivable difference or not is up for debate . Bloody foreign languages.

Fair enough. I'm too lazy to try that though.

To go back to the all DAWs sound the same or sum the same etc, it's simply not true. Yes, the strict math involved in coding summing may well be the same but that is just one small part of the overall sound of the daw.

As others have pointed out, the moment it's more than just summing, there are actually varied and significant variables that make each one sound different from another;

Pan laws are not the same in all daws - in fact one of the biggest mistakes people switching from PTHD to Logic or vice versa is not realizing that the default pans laws are different.

Audio with relation to tempo - import a sample in to ableton and then do the same in logic and the same in cubase. If there's any time stretching to tempo for that sample then they all use different algorithms to do this.

VST/AU do not do the same thing in each platform or even between passes in the same DAW. Ever wondered why Logic and PT have record on second as a print option?

Some even handle the timing of audio samples and instruments differently meaning tiny delays in introduced - they;re minute but you can hear them as an overall difference.

These are just the major ones, and if you get nay complex mixes with automation, eq's, groups, sub groups, auxes, VCA fader groups, delay compensation....well, you're never going to get a null results from a comparison between two DAWS.

Does it matter? Not really. Changing your soundcard will probably have a 100 times the perceivable effect over changing platforms. This is believe where the statement about protools sounding the most true comes from: it's not most "true" as such, just "dead". The PTHD hardware just sounds clean but really dead and clinical.

Back On Topic:

The new video cards were just announced for the new mac pros, and word is, we can expect a new Mac Pro launch in the next 8 weeks, with Logic x schedule for around the same time. CANNOT FUCKING WAIT

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Ok, probably right, but let's rephrase then, all CURRENT daws that support 32bit float, on unity gain, without tinkering with automation, EQ, plugins or subgroups, will summ the same Older daws might have been supporting only 24bit, or even 16bit, had issues with automation like "zipper noise" or built in saturation curves to adress internal clipping before the 24/32bit landmark. A daw is not magical, its just math, if a daw can't summ clean and straightforward it's got a design issue.

24 bit and 32 float are the same. One is for bad engineers , the other is for professionals. But the resolution is identical.

And math is done different ways. As soon as you start making a mix slightly complicated, things are never equal. For example,

The take home message is that a professional can make a hit record sound great using reason, fruity loops or logic with stock plugins. The DAW is about workflow. I mean considering the final format, talking about DAW output is kinda ridiculous. I get some fields that work at high sample rates, but like, i mean if some guy that did no recording was mixing at 192 KHz because of the "Air" i would sell him insurance. The simple fact is most adults can't hear above 12 Khz. Almost all these comments are just unfounded, untested gut feelings that usually boil down to buyer prejudice. My 6000$ apogee sympjhony interface sounds no better than my old rme UCs. I doubt anyone could. I can however feel better that my interface is out of reach of most minorities and i can record ridiculous amounts of tracks at hte same time at 192 Khz which obviously will never happen. My hearing is rather good for my age. I spent hours doing those drills for audio engineers back in the day. I only listen to music on quality references. I think most people are just blowing smoke. I can hear the natural resonances in my ear, i have perfect pitch, and I have been listening to audio critically for about 11 years. My ears aint bad. And if my ears are like my fingers, which are magic, then i would say they are probably better than most.

SO when a 40 year old starts talking about the magical top end of a fucking cable, well you kinda wonder, umm, you can't hear above 8 khz, and you have long hair. And i think you are full of shit.

I would say maybe 1 out of like 100000 has golden ears. The rest are just deluding themselves. That aint me, i knew one guy at school that played the oboe. Out of hundreds, this guy had golden ears. 24 and could hear 20 khz tones. And we fucking ran him thru the gauntlet. But he had bad BO. So , i mean do you want to smell great and have a nice ass or hear tones nobody else hears except dogs and Raphie's wife. Don't worry, the fire department is on the way.

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