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-- Are you doing your own mixing and mastering?
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quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I would take a badly mastered masterpiece over pristine sounding turd any day.

Fucking word.

I like where we are going with this conversation (and in civilize way lol), as for my perspective, I do my own mixing and some form of mastering (for strictly reviewing and compliance with my particular vision for this track) like EQ, limiting, compressing, stereo field, a little flavor/color (warmth) and few more little subtitle things.

At the same time I'm a bit frustrated that today music (trace, house, ...) is more about loudness, raisers-drops (like 20 of them in a 9min track lol) and couple of "Trap" part/elements in it then melody whatsoever - it is all about squeezing as much juice as possible from something which is not even worth (in first place) listen to (in some cases).

I guess is just me

Cheers,

Darek

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Sorry but I disagree. Trance sucks nowadays and I know it, but imo the reasons are far worst than what you're advancing here.

You're looking in the wrong places..

I thought this for a long long time, but the last year or so I've really got back into it.
People like JOC, Aly & Fila, Mark Sherry, Bryan Kearney, Jordan Suckley all play some good music and have restored my faith in trance. They all vary in styles, and yes non of it is hardly ground breaking stuff, but its stuff I like and has got me moving to it again.

I'm not sure the kind of trance you like, but surely someone will cater for your needs?

quote:

Originally posted by Andy28 You're looking in the wrong places.. I thought this for a long long time, but the last year or so I've really got back into it. People like JOC, Aly & Fila, Mark Sherry, Bryan Kearney, Jordan Suckley all play some good music and have restored my faith in trance. They all vary in styles, and yes non of it is hardly ground breaking stuff, but its stuff I like and has got me moving to it again. I'm not sure the kind of trance you like, but surely someone will cater for your needs?

I'm all ears for you. Share the goodies via pm.

We've been off-topic for too long.

I'm out.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceLover007 This is really cool that you are sharing your experience with us over here man and sounds like you already know the way most of those labels around operate by lol - it is all about money You would be surprise of the level of mixing/mastering knowledge some of our member poses in this forum and this is the reason why I created this thread -> to pull some of that knowledge out of them Thank you guys for being involve in this very important subject of music production Cheers, Darek

This is going to sound weird for most people. But I actually always tried to avoid learning stuff about music production by reading forums. And this is because in the past I have been shocked about how much nonsense people say on forums. Its not that people are lying. They probably also read it on a forum or watch a youtube video that was telling bulsshit. (you would be surprised how many tutorial videos tell you things that are simply not true) and if you don't know its bulsshit. Then you just think its true, And before you know it, information is being share by everybody not knowing it is bad information.

I Personally bought some books about music production. And this guy that wrote them was great. Because he explains things like you know absolutely nothing about music production. So it is in a language that everybody understands. If I still had the PDF files I would share it with you guys. But the computer it was on crashed. But I looked up his website and he still sells them. http://www.samplecraze.com/catalog/books

I noticed that he also started making videos. Some are free and some you have to pay for. This is new for me. But the guy is really great. And I even emailed him personally couple of times for questions and he helped me out. The big advantage of books is that there are much information that you can write about. But not really make a tutorial movie about. For example tutorials always tell you how to do something and then they show it in the software how to do it. But you won't find a tutorial explaining what sound actually is. (vibrations in the air) And how these vibrations react differently when you do curtain things. Mastering and mixing is all about sound. So understanding sound is extremely useful. But you won't find a tutorial video about it. Ok I start to sound like a commercial

But the point that I am trying to make. Is be careful what you read on forums or see on youtube. Forums are great if you search for specific things. But in my personal experience I just felt better if I had a source that I could trust.
(who knows maybe I am full of shit too haha)

Now these books I mentioned cost money so I am probably not making a lot of people happy with that. haha

But on my youtube channel I have made some playlist with GOOD tutorials. Meaning that I watched every single one of them. And I found them useful. And the info that is being told is accurate. If people are interested. I recommend these playlist I made.

Studio - Software Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...S25DUQ2webqCv_0

Studio - Software Ads & Reviews
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...DB74XKJxyDhBnAH

Studio - DJ & Studio Hardware
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...jXOwIXumDR8SOOX

Studio - Ableton Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...PdB8sEZV8171yc-

In the Studio with Famous Producers
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...kG-BB2gk0EYirjV

Native Instruments - Live Performance
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...zu5X6fm1svDyaIL

I learned a lot from them.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Personally speaking I agree with this but of course if you can combine original good memorable content with good mixing then that's the best of all outcomes. Loads of well mixed releases are throwaway and non memorable derivatives. Your second track down 'Some sort of hurricane' is a real pleasure on the ears and I love that little mid bass sustained wobble in the background, that sort of sound is what makes a techno track good. I sort of sensed already that labels want a finished article and not tooing and froing with an artist, but reading your narrative here brings this into sharp focus for me.

Thanks. It was very difficult to make that bass. I really wanted to have that bass you hear on record labels such as Drumcode. The original was even a bit warmer. But that made the mix of the song a bit more muddy. The record label balanced this more nicely then the original. Like I said, This is one of the few tracks that I can hear the record label did improve it when they mastered it. Because the original had a lot of low and a lot of high. But far less mid. Btw this is also a good tip when you master a track. When you listen to your song in a player like winamp. Look at the spectral analyser. A perfect mix would be that all the bars of the spectral analyser are equally balanced. (that they all reach the top for example) It also helps if you find a similar song. For example I compared my track to a song released by label drumcode. Because they are known to have a lot low end. Then I look at the spectrum analyser of that song in winamp. And then I looked at mine and compared the too. Its not a golden rule or anything that everything has to reach the top and be perfectly balance. But that is why comparing it to a similar song helps. Oh I forgot to mention one important thing about mastering. The stereo balance always have to sound even. It is wrong if your left speaker is louder then your right. You also should consider the fact that most sound systems in clubs. Are actually mono. So I always test my song if it still sounds good in mono as it does in stereo. If you have like crazy stereo effects where you automate panning. Then this might not sound nice or weird in mono. Perhaps you hardly hear curtain sounds at all. Very important thing to keep in mind!

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery This is exactly why trance sucks now.

Haha I do agree that trance of today sucks. But I don't think it has to do with just that. I mean you can make any song you want and still make that song sound good. The reason why old trance might sound less well mastered. Has more to do with technological improvements then anything else. My own personal theory about this. Is that a curtain trance sound sells best. (I mean musically not mastering) And that all producers try to imitate that sound the best way they can. That is why so much trance today all sound a like. (but that's my opinion) Because from a musical point of view. A lot of trance today is actually more complex to make. (that does not mean that this make the song any better)I think that dance genres evolve the way they do musically purely for commercial reasons. Even I will admit that I use to prefer old and fast sounding techno. I hated the fact that it went from 140 BPM to 126 BPM. Now I am use to it. But I will admit that when most producers started making a slower techno. I also started to make slower techno. Simply because that was the sound that was currently popular. (now I actually like them both just as much)The truth is. That originality in the Dance industry is not always a good thing. Most record labels want songs that they know will sell well. And when something is new, original, and different. Then this becomes much harder to judge.

quote:

Originally posted by Seandroid I always send labels unmastered copies.

You mean demos you are trying to get signed?

I do my own mixing and mastering. There isn't much to it. A limiter to keep any strays from crossing the 0db threshold, and an extreme high/low EQ cut. I master a lot quieter than I used to, plenty of dynamics.

Tbh i think bus compression (perhaps multiband if you got skills) saturation widening limiting are trance/edm specific mixdown toppers. you can get away with these being semi transparent and/or augmenting. Mastering goes in for the surgical treatments and dynamics/eq insurance. I; as well, am going to send my shit to Mark Sherry for mastering if it gets that far.

Dynamic Range is dead forever in some very prestigious trance outlets. I see it coming back in some others. Bob and weave!

I mixed down and mastered my album myself.

However I only chose to do so because of budget constraints. I couldn't afford to mix down in a proper studio, nor pay a qualified mastering engineer (sorry Raphie).

I'd have loved to hear what could've been done with a proper studio and engineer though

quote:

Originally posted by aquila I mixed down and mastered my album myself. However I only chose to do so because of budget constraints. I couldn't afford to mix down in a proper studio, nor pay a qualified mastering engineer (sorry Raphie). I'd have loved to hear what could've been done with a proper studio and engineer though

you can, Red Cloud will be on Beatport next week
And since I really like your tracks, you can always ask for a TA buddy quote

quote:

Originally posted by Rjen Thanks. It was very difficult to make that bass. I really wanted to have that bass you hear on record labels such as Drumcode. The original was even a bit warmer. But that made the mix of the song a bit more muddy. The record label balanced this more nicely then the original. Like I said, This is one of the few tracks that I can hear the record label did improve it when they mastered it. Because the original had a lot of low and a lot of high. But far less mid. Btw this is also a good tip when you master a track. When you listen to your song in a player like winamp. Look at the spectral analyser. A perfect mix would be that all the bars of the spectral analyser are equally balanced. (that they all reach the top for example) It also helps if you find a similar song. For example I compared my track to a song released by label drumcode. Because they are known to have a lot low end. Then I look at the spectrum analyser of that song in winamp. And then I looked at mine and compared the too. Its not a golden rule or anything that everything has to reach the top and be perfectly balance. But that is why comparing it to a similar song helps. Oh I forgot to mention one important thing about mastering. The stereo balance always have to sound even. It is wrong if your left speaker is louder then your right. You also should consider the fact that most sound systems in clubs. Are actually mono. So I always test my song if it still sounds good in mono as it does in stereo. If you have like crazy stereo effects where you automate panning. Then this might not sound nice or weird in mono. Perhaps you hardly hear curtain sounds at all. Very important thing to keep in mind!

if you wanna make a track like one on Drumcode, just make it loud.

LOUD LOUD LOUD LOUD LOUD.

Loudness is the key, dont worry so much about the content of the track or if anyone will remember it in 2 weeks time.

quote:

Originally posted by Rjen He asked me what kind of stuff I was using because he thought that my mixes/masters. Sounded a bit computer like. (meaning it lacked the warmth of real analog gear) Now I don't use analog gear. Its all done by computer. But still this remark haunted me. So I tried to work on this. So if you guys would like to give your opinion if my latest song sound less computer like and more analog. I would really appreciate it.

No. Your new track also sounds very "computer-like" and your sound will always continue to sound computer-like if you're using digital/software. The only way to make your sound analog is to use analog equipment. End of story. This is why I always say analog > digital/software (particularly in the Techno realm, but pretty much everywhere, really).

However. I've heard some good stuff done on Ableton (in the Tekno sphere, generally) but it was generally a combination of hardware (e.g. x0xb0x) and software (Ableton).

I think you can definitely benefit from incorporating some hardware into your setup.


If you're looking for a bargain, I highly recommend you check out this product: http://www.vintagesynth.com/korg/emx1.php

Many producers, famous and not-so-famous, used and continue to use this machine. Many of their tracks were released on vinyl, and it's a good and powerful machine, and not very expensive, either.

A brief description:

"Starting with its synth engine, the EMX-1 uses MMT synthesis (Multi Modeling Technology) which offers sixteen different oscillator algorithms, providing powerful analog synthesis models as well as sophisticated additive, PCM, chord, unison, combination, wave shaping, formant models and more.

The two Vacuum tubes (Valve Force Circuitry) create an analog tube circuit to add warmth and presence to your sounds. The tube gain knob adjusts the level of the output signal passing through the vacuum tubes, creating dynamic sounds with the distinctive tonal quality that only tubes deliver."

There's an entire subforum and a dedicated thread for getting feedback. You'll probably have better luck there and we can keep this thread on-topic, rather than using it for our self-promotion or another useless analog-vs-digital debate.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik There's an entire subforum and a dedicated thread for getting feedback. You'll probably have better luck there and we can keep this thread on-topic, rather than using it for our self-promotion or another useless analog-vs-digital debate.

indeed

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik There's an entire subforum and a dedicated thread for getting feedback. You'll probably have better luck there and we can keep this thread on-topic, rather than using it for our self-promotion or another useless analog-vs-digital debate.

Ok then I will drop the subject and delete the song from soundcloud to avoid self promotion.

Rjen, you're only 20 kilometers away from me.
But your tracks do sound very digital quite some room for improvement

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 if you wanna make a track like one on Drumcode, just make it loud. LOUD LOUD LOUD LOUD LOUD. Loudness is the key, dont worry so much about the content of the track or if anyone will remember it in 2 weeks time.

Hmmm ok. I think you are in a minority of thinking that. Since drumcode has more beatport top 10 hits then any other record label I have ever encountered. so apparently there are some people that like it.

You asked for feedback and I gave it to you. Your track sounds very "computer-like."

I'd like to see you try and recreate an analog techno track from the 90's using only software. I'd like to hear a single digital/software emulator of a 303 that sounds like its analog counterpart. No such thing.

Don't take my word for it. The guys from the Binary Bassline label, (Mr. Gasmask) himself said that if you want trax to sound like they were made in the early 90s, you gotta only use gear that was available in the early 90s. This is why many tracks being released today have that "oldschool feel," because they use analog gear.

Not saying using software is wrong or necessarily bad, but most of the time, if not always, your tracks will not have that analog feel.

quote:

Originally posted by Rjen Ok then I will drop the subject and delete the song from soundcloud to avoid self promotion.

What does deleting your song from Soundcloud have to do with this sbuject, lol? Soundcloud is for sharing music and self-promotion, nothing wrong with that.

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 indeed

I deleted the post I made. I apologise.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Rjen, you're only 20 kilometers away from me. But your tracks do sound very digital quite some room for improvement

oh where practically neighbours then. Groeten uit Almere Haven.
But thanks for your opinion. I will work on it. (or I was already working on it)

Rjen, production forum here is a little family, by far not as massive as gearslutz or other forums. We all know eachother quite well and for a long time. We more or less have our code of conduct which we all obey to. You can't know everything as a noob, but it's generally a good thing to follow up advise from veterans. Then you will fit in quite nice.
Quite some big names have been active members here and some still linger around under aliases or just reading. Don't use the production section for shameless self promotion. Don't assume you're around noobs, the best in the business might be reading with you.

We have a feedback work in progress topic for our family and there is a promotion subforum for dumping all Beatport releases and latest sondcloud farts.
The avg level is high here, we're not easily impressed

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred You asked for feedback and I gave it to you. Your track sounds very "computer-like." I was also told by well-known artists from the 90's that if you want to recreate the oldschool analog sound, you need to use the same equipment that was used back then. I'd like to see you try and recreate an analog techno track from the 90's using only software. I'd like to hear a single digital/software emulator of a 303 that sounds like its analog counterpart. No such thing. Don't take my word for it. The guys from the Binary Bassline label, (Mr. Gasmask) himself said that if you want trax to sound like they were made in the early 90s, you gotta only use gear that was available in the early 90s. This is why many tracks being released today have that "oldschool feel," because they use analog gear. Not saying using software is wrong or necessarily bad, but most of the time, if not always, your tracks will not have that analog feel. What does deleting your song from Soundcloud have to do with this sbuject, lol? Soundcloud is for sharing music and self-promotion, nothing wrong with that.

Well I actually don't like the analog sound of the 90s.
So there is no real problem for me if I can not emulate it. :P
I still don't agree that the analog sound can not be achieved in a software domain. Since many experts say it that it is possible. And these include many music production magazines. And include the most respected producers in the industry. And I am not just talking about the Dance industry. But in case all of you are right and they are wrong. Well then that is just to bad because I am really am not going to pay for analog stuff because I can not affort it. And it is also not necessary. Since a record label will never reject your song for not sounding analog enough. Unless you have one that is interested in 90s dance music

btw. Alexander koning. The men who told me my songs sounded computer like. Told me that with right software tools. You can imitate the analog sound. And just so you know. He has been making tracks since the late 80s. So I will ask him if you also can imitate the 90s sound. One thing is easy about the 90s. about 90% of all the stuff was made with a TR-909. And there are a lot of good replica's of it. So the drum sound is covered

quote:

Originally posted by Rjen Hmmm ok. I think you are in a minority of thinking that. Since drumcode has more beatport top 10 hits then any other record label I have ever encountered. so apparently there are some people that like it.

Very popular label, no doubt about that, used to be a big fan of them myself.

But your track wont make onto Drumcode or any of these other big labels unless its hella loud - download any of their top tracks and throw them into wavelab for a look....

Bart Skils - Hypnotizing (i like Bart Skils ) -5.61dB RMS

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