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-- The difficulty of simplicity
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quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation whut?

My goal isn't to make actual mnml. I just wanted to make the track more minimalistic, as in less elements.

I find minimal techno incredibly dull.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery My goal isn't to make actual mnml.

Partial irony alert

Try limiting instances of synths. Whatever you need for your rhythm section, one pad, one arp, one bass, one lead. Nothing else; derive your whole track from those elements.

For me, Airwave still stands as the ne plus ultra of minimal trance: rhythm section, bass, arp, pad. That's it.

Alternatively, radically accept and embrace what you do and how you do it. If complexity is helping you achieve sonic goodness, then dive right into it. Build tracks with layers and layers of sound and effects, drill down into the tiniest and fiddliest bits of automation and editing--take what you're doing now and go even further in that direction.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Thank you Mr.Obvious. What's really curious about you is you're ability to the deliver the most predictable and basic shit in a shiny wrapping! Really, what Mr.Mystery needs is an advice that opens his eyes and changes his way of approaching things. So my advice would be.... Are you ready... It's coming...... Listen to minimal.

Not sure what your fuckign issue is. OP highlighted a workflow issue. I suggested an approach that is more resilient to adding too much because you only take away.

Would be cool if you could channel your bullshit somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord Partial irony alert

You try too hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Not sure what your fuckign issue is. OP highlighted a workflow issue. I suggested an approach that is more resilient to adding too much because you only take away. Would be cool if you could channel your bullshit somewhere else.

I did actually like your suggestion. What I'm thinking is basically treating the whole thing as a live session and have a set number of elements that I manipulate. The usual linear approach isn't going to work here.

quote:

Originally posted by deegee Alternatively, radically accept and embrace what you do and how you do it. If complexity is helping you achieve sonic goodness, then dive right into it. Build tracks with layers and layers of sound and effects, drill down into the tiniest and fiddliest bits of automation and editing--take what you're doing now and go even further in that direction.

I do usually embrace it fully - for example, the other song I'm working on is a multi-part track that will end up being somewhere around 20 minutes long once it's done. I just want to keep things fresh and do something completely different to balance that.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie make choices, combine the parts that match together and support build-up agree on your drop and bin the rest. IMHO the best tracks have great percussion, a bassline, a pluck lead, some stabs and some vibe supporting atmo FX. that's it.

the old Salt Tank - Eugina formula.


You can ask any 5 of my past collaborators, everything i touch turns to trance effortlessly. I can not stress enough about how prophetic the name of this place is.

>takes expensive minimal house drum oneshots
>16th pattern

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I did actually like your suggestion. What I'm thinking is basically treating the whole thing as a live session and have a set number of elements that I manipulate. The usual linear approach isn't going to work here.

You could try working only with samples, maybe? I mean.. write a melody, bounce it to audio. Ditto bass, whatever. Write them relatively independently and then just arrange as though you were remixing from stems.

I think what you might be running into, is that it's way easier to go back to the tried and true. It's harder to solve an issue in the aesthetic you're going for if you're not used to it than it is to default to the techniques you're familiar with.

Now I know that the music I make isn't exactly elegant, but I have made tracks that are. I find it's usually easier to make something cohesive when you start with the hook or the most energetic part of the track. Then you don't run into a drop or whathaveyou that is less exciting than your build. Because then you'll start adding more and more elements to the drop to make it fit.

There's actually some good advice in this thread.

Richie's advice is spot on and one of the more fun ways to make a track.

We get too wrapped up in to looking at linear evolutions of a track on a linear sequencer - you end up making everything in blocks and before you know it, you're concentrating on filling layers, rather than workflow or better said, letting the work flow.

Tip #1

Get some 8 bar loops going, add a bunch of layers, do it quick, like you're sketching, until you have a part that drives and would be the peak of your track.

Now, route all your tracks to a sub master (even if you have them in sub groups already).

Record enable that sub master.

now play the peak time part and start breaking down the track from there by muting sections one or two or groups at a time. Fuck with their automation to wind them down.

Within a few attempts (and don't be afraid to back up if you make a mistake and continue from where you left off) you should have something that sound like a good end half of a track.

Now move all those regions, to say the 3 minute mark (or whatever makes sense in terms of bars given your BPM vs time).

Copy the "peak" region to bar 1.

Mute everything, enable record on your sub master, and start solo'ing tracks in sequence while recording it.

Built to that peak part.

Now, edit and arrange your track a little further (but be careful not to kill the spontaneity you might have captured by "over producing" it).

The beauty with doing it this may is that you're working backwards from a set point at which you've already judged happy with; There's no possibility of endlessly adding tracks during the composing part then realizing the track you built from the 4 beat bar is now 122 channels of layers all fighting for attention.

Why does this apply to wanting to make it more minimal in terms of elements? You make the "peak" part as minimal or as busy as you want, but it can't get MORE busy.

Tip #2

Listen to the masters of full, but minimal (in terms of layers) tracks.

Pryda.

I know I've mentioned this a bunch of times before but if you were to deconstruct his tracks in to individual elements, they sound like they just won't work discretely, but together it's a thing of genius. All his tracks consist of simple elements, automated incredibly well that just gel. Try focusing on simple arrangements from simple elements that don't need 1000 embellishments to work.

Dave Clark

Red 3 (1995) is literally 5 elements but that has destroyed more dancefloors than anyone cares to remember.

Rui Da Silva -

Touch Me or Fire. Simple, well layered tracks that rely on simple notes and perfect automation. See Pryda for more details.

Touch them, fool.

Start with ideas, not loops.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Touch them, fool. Start with ideas, not loops.

Even though I already have more ideas than I should?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN now play the peak time part and start breaking down the track from there by muting sections one or two or groups at a time. Fuck with their automation to wind them down.

Damn boy you're on to something... Having a well defined peak idea first is crucial imho. If you decided to take the time to blow out an arrangement of soft, sloppy loops then its time wasted, trust me. there comes a point where you have something in the sequencer (or session view AL) where you can turn it up, close your eyes, and feel it. That's when you start arranging. I read that on this very forum when i was a kid.

Although trance music is known to be complex in sonic content, i don't think it should be any more complex than the main idea. Write the idea stems, then extrapolate the story of that idea, and use the daw to interpolate it creatively.

>TAA where we go to meetings and talk about how we've learned to shorten delay feedback and use moderate reverb tails only.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Even though I already have more ideas than I should?

Good ideas don't need to be supported by a bunch of filler/unnecessary complexity. Keep it simple by starting with ideas that can stand on their own, then only add and keep parts that contribute something substantial and toss anything that doesn't. This is day two of Composition 101. If you think you're already there, then what's the point if this thread?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Good ideas don't need to be supported by a bunch of filler/unnecessary complexity. Keep it simple by starting with ideas that can stand on their own, then only add and keep parts that contribute something substantial and toss anything that doesn't. This is day two of Composition 101. If you think you're already there, then what's the point if this thread?

What I'm trying to do here is stepping out of my comfort zone and do something I don't usually do. Feel free to keep your condescending remarks to yourself, if you don't see the point of the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery What I'm trying to do here is stepping out of my comfort zone and do something I don't usually do. Feel free to keep your condescending remarks to yourself, if you don't see the point of the thread.

Condescending? How is giving advice condescending? Jesus, dude, grow a fucking spine.

At the risk of making you break down and cry , why don't you post some of these awesome comfort zone ideas of yours - raw, with just piano, and let's have a real discussion about music, rather than a hypothetical one that gets your panties all wadded up? You want to talk music, then let's talk music, because everything else in this thread just seems to hurt your precious little feelings.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Condescending? How is giving advice condescending? Jesus, dude, grow a fucking spine. At the risk of making you break down and cry , why don't you post some of these awesome comfort zone ideas of yours - raw, with just piano, and let's have a real discussion about music, rather than a hypothetical one that gets your panties all wadded up? You want to talk music, then let's talk music, because everything else in this thread just seems to hurt your precious little feelings.

Did I piss in your cereal or something? What exactly are you trying to achieve?

Not a damn thing. I was trying to offer you some solid advice for addressing some of the most fundamental issues that nearly artist faces, and you're the one who felt insulted by it (i.e., "condescending"). You responded in a similar manner to other people who have offered advice as well. Either accept the advice for what it is, or keep lashing out at people. I don't really care, but good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Not a damn thing. I was trying to offer you some solid advice for addressing some of the most fundamental issues that nearly artist faces, and you're the one who felt insulted by it (i.e., "condescending"). You responded in a similar manner to other people who have offered advice as well. Either accept the advice for what it is, or keep lashing out at people. I don't really care, but good luck.

There's been plenty of helpful posts here. Raphie's and L4C's in particular.

I guess oneliners and name calling just doesn't seem particularily useful to me. Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery There's been plenty of helpful posts here. Raphie's and L4C's in particular. I guess oneliners and name calling just doesn't seem particularily useful to me. Go figure.

Really, "fool" hurt your feelings? C'mon, man, don't feed me that crap. You've been grumpy to just about everybody lately.

Sorry if my posts came across as condescending. And, my "make you cry" post was intended to just see what sort of response it would invoke (i.e., would you get defensive, or take it head on - music profs do this shit all time and it's very effective). Regardless, don't take it personally.

But, in all seriousness, you are not going to get the best advice until you post examples of what you're talking about. You sure as hell wouldn't go on to a photography forum and say "hey, I can't seem to get the exposure right on this photo I'm processing - what should I do?" without posting the photo and expect to get any meaningful advice, except for some general advice that everybody gives [i.e., like you've gotten here], some of which might hit the mark, but most of which doesn't. Where's the music? Quit dancing about architecture and show us where you're struggling.

Mr.Mystery, you're very mysterious.

No worries, I've been on the internet long enough not to get insulted lightly.

This was originally meant as more of a generic pondering than advice for a specific situation. I'm just figuring out that I can't work on this like a prog track.

Also, I'm a bit too far from my computer to post a sample right now Maybe tomorrow.

Did you get a new computer yet? Wasn't that you with the dismantled laptop?

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