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-- The Death Penalty
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quote:

Originally posted by Stiffmaster death penalty is the stupidest thing ever!!! you cannot settle a kill with another. I dont wanna know, how many innocent people were murdered so far in the USA by the state.

yep,yep,yep...youre all right..
i think its more punishment for a murder to spend the rest of the life in prison-perhaps even in a single-cell , than to die in cause of an poison injection....thats just salvation...
and we dont really know whats o his mind...is he just crazy or is his mind completely ill...is he aware of what he did?

quote:

Originally posted by starglider Bottom line: 1. It's been proven that the threat of the death penalty does not deter murderers. 2. Innocent people have and will continue to die by capital punishment (as Arbiter mentioned). 3. Killing the murderer doesn't bring back the victim, nor does it make the family feel better.

Exactly.

If someone can give me a reason why the death penalty is preferable to a life sentence then I'll be willing to listen, but all the arguments offered here are either based entirely on emotion ("but they don't deserve to live!") or are entirely incorrect ("it costs less to put a man to death than to put him in jail for life").

One who wills the death of another human being is one who needs his moral spectrum re-alligned.

quote:

all i have to say is that to me a death penalty is somewhat equivalent to euthanasia and im strongly opposed to the latter...therefore

I'll have to disagree with you here.

Every person has a "theoretical" point where life is no longer worth living. Personally, I can think of nothing more immoral than forcing someone to live in extreme pain for several months, with no hope of recovery, when all they want to do is end the agony. Kevin Phillips - who is the MP for my local area (a small area of Melbourne) - successfully overturned the legalisation of euthanasia in the Northern Territory (check your maps - central north of Australia, a long way away from where I live) and in doing so I effectively accuse him, directly, of being responsible for the torture of innocent civilians.

People deserve sanctity over their own lives. No-one - in the case of sending them to death or forcing them to live - has the right to take that away from them.

quote:

Who benefits if they live?

Who benefits if they die?

quote:

Well first of all there are some crimes far too henious to allow that person to live. Their mere presence on Earth pollutes it. Would you allow Hitler to live? After killing 6+ million innocent people would you allow him to enjoy the smallest shred pleasure he may gain from living the duration of his life?

You comparing the average person on death row to Adolf Hitler?

If the accused had killed 6 million people then it would be quite clear - especially if he were the leader of a powerful military force - that his death would be the only way of ending the terror. However, if you have your average "murderer" (if that is what he is being convicted for) in the docks, you can either end his presence in society by murdering him or by putting him in jail for the rest of his life. Either way, he is no longer a threat. What possible justification can there be in putting him to death? To reduce ourselves to the same, inhumane standards he has been accused of in the first place? Would you feel justified in doing that? Would you pull the switch?

Advocates of the death penalty, perhaps, should be made to watch an execution so that they can consider the situation on a personal, rather than an abstract, statistical level. As immorally as they may have acted, people convicted of crimes are still human. To deprive them of this fact is to return to the "eye for an eye" days of sub-intellectual savegery, where justice is reduced to a fallicious formula: one who does wrong deserves to have the wrong returned in full.

Where do you draw the line on who deserves the death penalty and who doesn't then? One convicted of manslaughter? One convicted of rape? What about one convicted of corporate embezzlement? Surely, on a utilitarianistic level, one who effectively robs money from enough people is responsible for as much misery as one who kills another human being?

Where is the line drawn?

Not all the people who deserve to die unnaturally, actually die in that way. So unless someone is going to make sure that happens, everyone who supports death penalty is being a hypocrite.

touchy topic, actually on this one im on the fence...

However, i am absolutely in favor of the death penality if someone has committed a horrendious crime and is a threat to society and endangers lives just by being alive. let me exlain, for example i belive if ossama were to be caught his death should be carried out swiftly. Ossama is a threat to the world and by locking him in prison you only serve to endanger the lives of the prison holders (or anyone else for that matter). it would not be unlikely that al-quida would try and seige the prison in order to save him. Or, al-quida could take hostages and demand the release of ossama in return for their lives. see in this case the threat that a man posses can only be eradicated through his death.

Now moving on to more day-to-day savage criminals. i do not belive someone should die for a murder or two, but when murders are taken to the extreme (there are horrible ways one can kill a person) or taken in mass quantities, be it random or selective (ie mafia) the death penality should have consideration. it is obvious the the person committing the crimes shows no care for life, so why his life worth caring for. this is the case in america, you have had to be convicted of a pretty foul stint of murders for the death penality to be considered.

now once it is considered, it is not a person who decides, but rather a jury who decides on the sentence. a jury is a representation of the people, the countries society and morals. we each now each society and culture has its own values and norms, and this regards to the life as well (topics such as euthanasia or abortion), who is to say that one society's morals are 'better' then another. sure you may think of the death penality as being hypocritical and lowering your standards to that of the criminal but others may see this as a way to rid the world of evil and to help calm the victims (yes, i'll admit if my family was murdered, i would take great pleasure in seeing the guy who killed them be put to death - ill even watch)

another thing to consider is that most the horrible serial killers have been physcos and mentaly inbalanced, in otherwards some are more prone to ravage killings just because of how they were born. i mean come on if the death penality doesnt scare you away from murdering someone there must be something wrong with your reasoning. for a sane person i belive the death penality is a deterent. so going back to the question at hand, should we kill someone just because they were born that way? its not their fault they lack the concept of wrong or right or are generally insane... but then agian every human alive should know the limits of action he is taking, otherwise he should be institutionlized right away.

btw, i was NOT aware the killing someone is more expensive then keeping someone alive... i still kind of find that hard to belive. But that is definitly something to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Who benefits if they die?

alot of people

society - losing one less idiotic,inhuman killer.
notice how I said inhuman? someone who kills for fun. kills just for the hell of it. is not human. why should he be treated as one?

family - the family of the individual(s) involved will benefit greatly; knowing their loved ones killer is dead. no longer breathing,living,relishing the moment they killed. this will make their pain a little less painful

me - yes i will benefit,so will my parents. the justice system is lame..someone on death row should not be living. after convicted they should be executed next week. that will greatly lower taxes,therefor benefiting me,you,everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Haunted alot of people society - losing one less idiotic,inhuman killer. notice how I said inhuman? someone who kills for fun. kills just for the hell of it. is not human. why should he be treated as one? family - the family of the individual(s) involved will benefit greatly; knowing their loved ones killer is dead. no longer breathing,living,relishing the moment they killed. this will make their pain a little less painful me - yes i will benefit,so will my parents. the justice system is lame..someone on death row should not be living. after convicted they should be executed next week. that will greatly lower taxes,therefor benefiting me,you,everyone.

yea well said, i mean honestly do you think the sniper (if the one they got is really him) well lets just say it is, do you think he should be allowed to live? Whats the point of him being alive? Seriously......Id say death penalty or slavery or something....and im sure all the people that lost the loved ones to the sniper would really rather him have the death penalty then just go through jail for the rest of his life....

Re: The Death Penalty

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi In recent threads people have made comments saying that when certain criminals are cought, they should face the death penalty. So I wanted to see what you all thought about the death penalty. Personally I am against the death penalty because at the very least its absolutly hypocritical to kill someone for killing another person. No one deserves to loose there life, and killing someone, wont bring another person back. Additionally, if you really wanted to punish someone there are probably better ways to do so. I personally would rather die, then say spend a few weeks in solitary confinment, especially knowing that I had killed or raped someone.

Well it saves me from paying to keep them alive...ie my tax dollars, do some research on how much is spent per year for prisoners.

Mizz

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

i am all for death penalty. And i think that people who are against it would change there mind if someting happened to a family member of theirs or a friend. Why the fuck should we stick them in jail, to fuckin waste tax dollars that could be going to giving school teachers raises or police new equipment.

Does the family of the murdered person really benifit?? I'm sure they hate the person who killed the person, but does it bring them back?
NO

And do you guys really think all the people locked up are physco and sadistic, and are all happy about the people theyve killed? If it's a hate crime than quite possibly, but if its someone who you got in a fight with at a bar, and shot him while piss drunk probably not.

Another note, if the death penalty keeps these "sick freaks" out of our live's and society, doesn't life in jail do the same thing?

quote:

Well it saves me from paying to keep them alive...ie my tax dollars, do some research on how much is spent per year for prisoners.

More money total is spent on prisoners than on people killed, but thats because there are far more people in jail, than killed each year. The price per person is much less for someone serving a jail sentence. If someone is sentenced to death, there are litterally thousands of ways to appeal it. So he _will_ live another 4+ years, and take your money. And during that time, he'll be wasting your tax dollars on huge legal battles with state sponsored lawyers.

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi Does the family of the murdered person really benifit?? I'm sure they hate the person who killed the person, but does it bring them back? NO

[/i][/b]

They are the ones that lost a loved one ... not you ... so who are you to say that they can't gain some satisfaction out of that murderer dying, even if it doesn't bring their loved one back? It's like ordering men into battle without knowing what war is really like.

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi And do you guys really think all the people locked up are physco and sadistic, and are all happy about the people theyve killed? If it's a hate crime than quite possibly, but if its someone who you got in a fight with at a bar, and shot him while piss drunk probably not.

[/i][/b]

A drunk guy who shoots somebody at the bar won't get the death peanlty. That's second degree murder. Capital murder cases involve people who committ multiple murders in cold blood, those who fully plan out a murder knowing full well what they are doing is wrong, and those who committ murder in a particularly gruesome, cruel manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi Another note, if the death penalty keeps these "sick freaks" out of our live's and society, doesn't life in jail do the same thing?

[/i][/b]

Yes it keeps them out of society but does it punish them enough?

And for those of you that think we shouldn't apply the death penalty to murderers because they were "born that way," when was the last time you objected to a rabid dog being put to sleep? Or how about an animal that attacked and killed people? Has anybody ever suggested establishing a park for rapid, aggressive animals so they can live out their lives in homocidal peace? It's hypocritical to preach about "cherishing all life" when you don't make a fuss about those issues. Basically if someone is born with homicidal urges and has no regard for human life then THEY have no regard for their own life. Do them a favor and put them out of their misery much as you would with a rabid dog.

occrider , you make some good points about most of us not experiencing someone close to us getting killed. However I do think I have some idea of what the thought process is because I have had my best freind hit with bullets, and he was literally an inch from dying.

Additinally the piss drunk guy was just an example. However I do belive each and every human life is worth just as much as any other one, and either way, if someone purposly killed someone they purposley killed someone. It's about the ends (the person being dead), not the means(motive, method etc.) Thats my opponion anyways.

Ok, you probably do have a better idea of loss or pain than most. But let me ask you this. If the guy who had wounded your friend had instead butchered his entire family in front of him to make him suffer then stabbed him 20 times until he bled to death would you still think the same way? There are a lot of twisted, sadistic criminals like that that are on death row for a reason.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ok, you probably do have a better idea of loss or pain than most. But let me ask you this. If the guy who had wounded your friend had instead butchered his entire family in front of him to make him suffer then stabbed him 20 times until he bled to death would you still think the same way? There are a lot of twisted, sadistic criminals like that that are on death row for a reason.

I'd like to think that I wouldn't because thats what I've been preaching. In the case of my freind, I definatly hated the guy, but didn't want to kill him. If something liket that happened, I probably would feel different though. But like I said I cant make any hypothisise on that, seing as I've never expereinced anything quite like that.

quote:

[i][b] More money total is spent on prisoners than on people killed, but thats because there are far more people in jail, than killed each year. The price per person is much less for someone serving a jail sentence. If someone is sentenced to death, there are litterally thousands of ways to appeal it. So he _will_ live another 4+ years, and take your money. And during that time, he'll be wasting your tax dollars on huge legal battles with state sponsored lawyers.

gimme a number my friend, don't tell me its cheaper when u have to pay for healthcare, food and shelter, for a life sentence, that could be many many years.

Mizzz

quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno gimme a number my friend, don't tell me its cheaper when u have to pay for healthcare, food and shelter, for a life sentence, that could be many many years. Mizzz

What he's saying is true, but is a very poor point, as we could simply deny them the multitude of appeals they are now given and execution would instantaneously become more economically efficient. This would be nice, IMHO, because paying taxes to keep people alive who provide nothing in return is simply wasteful.

Unfortunately, in most situations, the death penalty is not appropriate, because it is irrevocable, whereas a false imprisonment can be corrected, at least to a degree. If we could be certain of guilt, such as in the case of a Hitler-like individual, then the death penalty would be appropriate, but for common criminals, such certainty is difficult to acquire, because their actions are reflected on a much smaller scale.

In an ideal world, the death penalty would be an ideal solution to many crimes. But in an ideal world, you wouldn't need it. For now, it ought to be reserved for only the most extreme circumstances, IMHO.

Cheers,

Arbiter

yea, gotta keep those who are falsly accused and have been executed in mind.
Good post man.

I'm against the death penalty.

I won't go into a big long essay explaining my reasons, and I'm not going to argue with anyone that disagrees.

Basically, I just thing we should be aiming higher up on the ladder on the causes of the problems. There are some serious issues in society that could be solved to prevent the kind of crimes that warrant a death penalty.

quote:

Originally posted by Vesa I'm against death penalty in all cases except terrorism and mass murder. Death penalty is brutal. It will also hurt the society that adopts it.

The snipers are a good example of a death penalty case, actually any person who commits murder is really IMO.

Yes the death penalty is brutal, but far less so than torture... but a good judge weighs the crime with the punishment, and gives cruel and unusual punishments for cruel and unusual crimes... Honestly, if they torture those two snipers with whips & beds of needles I'd say they had it coming, cause it certainly fits the hideous crime they committed. In America we dont have punishments strong enough for those types of crimes however. I'd say give them a real life Biblical Hell, but man has yet to build a biblical hell.

Edit : now that I think about it, if we as a species built the biblical hell, all crime would be reduced to near zero.

Re: Hoooray for the death penalty

quote:

Originally posted by occrider FYI the cost of putting someone to death is SIGNIFICANTLY more than it costs to put someone in jail for life. It may seem ridiculous but it's true given the costs of legal fees.

Unfortunately we have an out of control system of appeals in America. I've heard of cases that go through 10 appeals and some people on death row wont get executed till 2030. Appeals need better regulation, something like no more than 3 appeals.

quote:

Originally posted by starglider "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Ok, this is about the stupidest thing I've seen... a great line from a great movie, but it is so flawed in this argument.

Golem did nothing wrong (they were referring to Golem following them in the Dwarf Mines in the movie LOTR), whereas the snipers murdered 10 people in cold blood.

I'm strongly opposed to the death penalty, I won't go into too many details since I got into this discussion last march and I'd be repeating those thoughts. Some points however:

In the US being black increases your chance of being sentenced to death, I believe the number is 2.5 times more likely (I need to double check)..

In recent years nearly 90 death row inmates have been released outright thanks to DNA testing, some of those were only days away from death.

Formerly staunch supporter of the death penalty, Governor George Ryan of Illinois halted all death penalty executions after seeing how many people were being set free off death row thanks to DNA testing. He now regrets his support of the death penalty, and is working to stop it.

Proof that the death penalty works is not there, and if there isn't strong evidence to show it works, why then use it and take the risk of killing innocent people?

Does anyone think that life imprisonment is easy? Ask anyone thats spent even 2yrs in jail how they feel about life imprisonment and I'm sure you'll hear that its hell.

Anyways, if you want to read my thoughts, check out my replies in this thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...t=death+penalty

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter For now, it ought to be reserved for only the most extreme circumstances, IMHO.

Yeah I agree with you there. I think the death penalty should not be carried out for most of the time but only for criminals who have no moral conscience, no respect for human life and are not sorry for the serious crime they committed like those friggin terrorists and those two snipers.

it should be used for the kind of crimes that were intentionally commited.
someone who intentionally rapes and kills someone = death penalty
someone who plans it out.. and kills someone = death penalty
someone who kills someone just out of spite of the moment. = no death penalty


and frankly the US justice system is pissing me off
its HORRIBLE
someone who takes a gun. and shoots someone and does NOT kill them
gets less jail time then a teacher who has an affair with a student (the one that ran away with the 16 year old kid to las vegas for 3 days might get life in prison)

Hey another thread to add to the succesfull Political Forum

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