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-- Anyone remember the Pokemon craze?
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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Seeing that video games are a much more profitable industry than films these days, that would be more or less everyone.

Ah yes, the old "everyone likes it, it must be valid" argument retooled and re-purposed for geeks.

I don't think videogames are innately juvenile, although they certainly seem to become more inane and mindless with every passing year, but there's a big difference between something like Civilization and Pokemon. One is an incredibly detailed and expansive simulation of human history that allows the player to explore their own morality and ideology through multi-tiered game mechanics. The other involves cartoon teenagers wandering a primary colour landscape collecting cutesy "pocket monsters".

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Ah yes, the old "everyone likes it, it must be valid" argument retooled and re-purposed for geeks.

I'm not making an argument, it's simply a fact. Though I have a feeling most of that money comes from bullshit casual games and their microtransactions.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I'm not making an argument, it's simply a fact.

Oh come on. "I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you something" is even more chickenshit than the popularity appeal.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Oh come on. "I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you something" is even more chickenshit than the popularity appeal.

What exactly are you trying to debate here?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J One is an incredibly detailed and expansive simulation of human history that allows the player to explore their own morality and ideology through multi-tiered game mechanics. The other involves cartoon teenagers wandering a primary colour landscape collecting cutesy "pocket monsters".

Even if I agree with you, and I do, this is the point I originally made: If I'm going to criticise someone for still playing a game from their childhood, it would be quite hypocritical if I did the same - no matter what game I play. In the end, I'm just spending countless hours in front of a glowing screen doing stuff that won't affect the real world at all.

I might learn something about balance of power and know a thing or two more than your average voter for the next elections, but that's about it. In the end, Shaka is just my public school Pikachu. A Pika-toff, if you will. Perhaps slightly improved and posh, but essentially the same.

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Originally posted by Lira Even if I agree with you, and I do, this is the point I originally made: If I'm going to criticise someone for still playing a game from their childhood, it would be quite hypocritical if I did the same - no matter what game I play.

That depends entirely on the angle of the criticism. I appreciate you were essentially replying to RANN's characteristically bull-in-china-shop proclamation, but I wanted to make clear my beef is specifically with people completely content to wallow in the same unchallenging, unthreatening shit they liked as children. Again, this is not to write off everything aimed at children as inherently inferior, but I remember Pokemon pretty well, and even as an eleven year old I thought it was mind-numbing bullshit.

the only thing from Pok�mon I still care about is the original theme song from '98. It's great for motivation imo. I heard the singer Jason Paige made a fortune out of this song.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Seeing that video games are a much more profitable industry than films these days, that would be more or less everyone.

I wasn't going to even dignify this incredibly shallow excuse of a comparison but I'll bite seeing as others did.

Profitability does not equal popularity in terms of numbers (i.e. "everyone")
Profitability is much higher in the games market for a plethora of reasons:

Most decent Games cost between $40 and $100 as opposed to a cinema ticket which at max is going to $15.

Margins are much higher in the games industry (try 40% to retailer for games as opposed to about 10% for cinemas, which on $15 is fuck all).

More people actually go to the cinema (1.3bn per year) than regularly play video games, and then when you factor in VOD and rentals, Hollywood in terms of impressions or regular goers truly dwarfs the games industry.

Finally, those games industry profitability figures also include in app/game purchases and when you look at the average spend of a die hard gamer, it's often in the thousands per year. So basically you have a much smaller, but far more fanatical base who are willing to hand over large sums to game, as opposed to even the ardent cinema buff who would be hard pressed to spend $600 on cinema tickets in a year (that would mean going at least 4 times a month to the cinema).

So in essence you statement is utter bollocks, and is really nothing more that a statement on the health of margins in the games sector and much less to do with how many people are avid video games enthusiasts.

While Jack may think it's a bulldozer statement, I think grown men in their 30's and 40's playing several hours of video games a night is exactly the same sort of manchild/kidult behaviour that pokemon bothering is.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J That depends entirely on the angle of the criticism. I appreciate you were essentially replying to RANN's characteristically bull-in-china-shop proclamation, but I wanted to make clear my beef is specifically with people completely content to wallow in the same unchallenging, unthreatening shit they liked as children.

Oh, I see. In that case, I've got a genuine question:

Quite often, music enthusiasts (here, at least), consider electronic music to be garbage because "it's just pressing buttons". And, as much as I love, say, Liam Howlett, I don't think I've ever seen him play Bach on the piano (for the sake of the argument, let's suppose he can't). Would it be fair of a classical music fans to judge The Prodigy according to their own 19th century standards? They could easily dismiss electronic dance music as "simple unchallenging" music. What if we're misjudging Pokemon here and saying it fails to reach a standard it never strived for in the first place?

And I say "we" because I tend to be quite dismissive of it myself and most "nerd culture". But, that's possibly because I outnerded the nerds at my school and got into computer music long before I could feign any interest in computer games

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Originally posted by Lira Would it be fair of a classical music fans to judge The Prodigy according to their own 19th century standards? They could easily dismiss electronic dance music as "simple unchallenging" music. What if we're misjudging Pokemon here and saying it fails to reach a standard it never strived for in the first place?

I've been a fan of classical music for many years, likewise with electronic music, and I've never judged the latter by the former's standards. However, I did stop producing (electronic music) for a while and started playing piano because I did, indeed, feel unchallenged/limited with EM.

I'm going to assume that Jack meant "unchallenging, unthreatening" in the sense that adults should be out living/experiencing what life itself has to offer, rather than stay home and play video games or absorb themselves in childish stuff, like Pokemon. I spoke of something similar to this many years ago on this forum, after my trip back from Mexico.

I have a friend who's very much into gaming, but I'm not judging him. I think he has enough life experience to know what he likes to do with his leisure. On the other hand, an adult who's still into Pokemon? That may be a problem.

Iboga.

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Originally posted by OrangestO Iboga.

You're about as entertaining as IGK. You're a pathetic war vet who thinks he's a writer who came back from the war and joined TA (at age 30 or so?) in hopes of finding a friend, because you can't find one IRL. Am I right so far?

War vet? Lol.

Iboga, son. Iboga.

Sounds like your life is like a box of chocolates

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred after my trip back from Mexico

W_ashley, is that you?

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Originally posted by Lira Oh, I see. In that case, I've got a genuine question: Quite often, music enthusiasts (here, at least), consider electronic music to be garbage because "it's just pressing buttons". And, as much as I love, say, Liam Howlett, I don't think I've ever seen him play Bach on the piano (for the sake of the argument, let's suppose he can't). Would it be fair of a classical music fans to judge The Prodigy according to their own 19th century standards? They could easily dismiss electronic dance music as "simple unchallenging" music. What if we're misjudging Pokemon here and saying it fails to reach a standard it never strived for in the first place? And I say "we" because I tend to be quite dismissive of it myself and most "nerd culture". But, that's possibly because I outnerded the nerds at my school and got into computer music long before I could feign any interest in computer games

I think you're missing the point somewhat. It's not really about aesthetics, highbrow vs lowbrow or even videogame design. I'm talking about people who deliberately wallow in all this shit specifically because it's unthreatening, comforting throwback shit from their childhood. And believe me, this is a common demographic. It's a pervasive mindset.

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Originally posted by OrangestO Iboga, son. Iboga.

I'll be ordering some in a few days. Hopefully it'll help.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I think you're missing the point somewhat. It's not really about aesthetics, highbrow vs lowbrow or even videogame design. I'm talking about people who deliberately wallow in all this shit specifically because it's unthreatening, comforting throwback shit from their childhood. And believe me, this is a common demographic. It's a pervasive mindset.

My analogy is to blame: I did get you, but I see I couldn't make my point as clear as I hoped.

I know it's common - I've got dozens of students who seem trapped in their childhoods, so computer games and cartoons become a significant part of their lives. Worse yet, the Japanese government does what it can to keep these students because they help the country project its soft power here, so I've got even colleagues who fit your description. The local embassy once sent to Japan a student of ours who had a Saint Seiya themed wedding, so they definitely want these people (and I can't say I'm surprised by MSZ's post... I've seen it happen right here).

Anyway, my point is: I understand why you think the way you do. But, because I'm such an annoying bleeding-hear Millian, I can't help wondering if there isn't an upside to their childish interests and apparently sheltered lives. EDM has helped me come up with loads of ideas in linguistics even though people have criticised me for listening to "non-music" in the past, hence my analogy, so maybe Pokémon saga will be useful for something other than train cock-fighting coaches and we're just blind to it.

(Am I still missing the point or was it just my bad analogy?)

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred I spoke of something similar to this many years ago on this forum, after my trip back from Mexico.

Could you post a link to it? I think I even said something in your thread, but I could be wrong.

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Originally posted by Lira Could you post a link to it? I think I even said something in your thread, but I could be wrong.

Can't believe I actually found it: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=2#.Vhm1hvlViko

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Can't believe I actually found it: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=2#.Vhm1hvlViko

Haha, it quickly got derailed, I only joined the discussion when it was no longer about living a simple life

But, yeah, I get you. Whenever I get bitter about university politics, I remember the time I visited a small town up north here in Brazil. People barely had a library, let alone access to the internet.

So whenever I think that I work in a public university and those people are paying my salary with taxes, I ask myself if I'm putting their money to good use.

this thread is pathetic, Lira fighting the good fight.

Pokemon was big for me growing up as was a lot of other stuff from Japan specifically, all the access I had to anything contemporary built by the far east was those games and shows. From a cultural perspective, if I really think about it, other than maybe folk tales that may have come from there that I had heard as a kid and general history from the east that I had access to at school, any type of philosophy and culture from the east came from anime/manga and video games. I'd still play my copy of Saphire if I knew where my sp charger is.

I started playing yugioh again, fuck you.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Pokemon was big for me growing up as was a lot of other stuff from Japan specifically, all the access I had to anything contemporary built by the far east was those games and shows. From a cultural perspective, if I really think about it, other than maybe folk tales that may have come from there that I had heard as a kid and general history from the east that I had access to at school, any type of philosophy and culture from the east came from anime/manga and video games. I'd still play my copy of Saphire if I knew where my sp charger is.

unfortuantely, I never got passed the red/blue/yellow era. Pok�mon was insanely big from 98-2K. Pokemon and Trance shared a lot of parallels in terms of their peak and longevity. both are still around to this day and still fairly popular, but their glory days were a decade and a half ago. by the time Counter-strike came out in around 2000, people I knew got hooked into that and it continued throughout middle school and high school.

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