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-- Israel or Palestine?
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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Not at all - the Israeli's were native to the region, then were enslaved and taken away, THEN the palestinians migrated in from the East, and then the Israeli's were finally returned to the area after World War II.

then the Native Indians of north america are legitimate to kick us out of here too , do you agree ?

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 then the Native Indians of north america are legitimate to kick us out of here too , do you agree ?

I'm one of them, so most certainly

EDIT: I ought to add though, as a Native American I wouldn't kick out the Europeans who moved in, simply because I think their presence has been beneficial. If it was not however, yeah, I would expect them to leave.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 then the Native Indians of north america are legitimate to kick us out of here too , do you agree ?

no offense Arbiter but you got yourself into a hole, i'd like to see how you get out of this one
i belive both have equal rights to the land, but on your side of the argument the palestinians technically gave up that right when they failed to accept the partition plan of 1947 and called for a unitary arab state. depsite their foolish mistake i still think they should get some land to have a country of their own, just becuase there is no real other solution

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy no offense Arbiter but you got yourself into a hole, i'd like to see how you get out of this one i belive both have equal rights to the land, but on your side of the argument the palestinians technically gave up that right when they failed to accept the partition plan of 1947 and called for a unitary arab state. depsite their foolish mistake i still think they should get some land to have a country of their own, just becuase there is no real other solution

---edit---
nm nice reply you got yourself out of that pickle nicely btw i hope neither side doesnt take any offense


---edit the edit---
oops sorry about that i mean to edit my last post but hit quote, and it wont let me delete my post

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy ---edit--- nm nice reply you got yourself out of that pickle nicely btw i hope neither side doesnt take any offense

Thanks

It's really just a bad situation IMHO as it stands. What I would like to see is an end to the violence. I think if the Palestinians would stop their terrorist activities, then eventually Israel might be receptive to giving them some land for the greater good even though the Israeli's have a legitimate claim to it. But the violence just further perpetuates hatred, and hatred is a great obstacle to kindness. In either case as long as the Palestinians continue to resort to violence, I don't think we can seriously consider it an option because it legitimizes terrorism as a means of brining about change.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy no offense Arbiter but you got yourself into a hole, i'd like to see how you get out of this one i belive both have equal rights to the land, but on your side of the argument the palestinians technically gave up that right when they failed to accept the partition plan of 1947 and called for a unitary arab state. depsite their foolish mistake i still think they should get some land to have a country of their own, just becuase there is no real other solution

Izzy i think it was in their right not to accept the partition , and the war was totally justified , but as you said both parts should live there because i don't wanna imagine a total war anymore

As I said before the biggest reason a palestinian state set up by the U.N or anyone else wouldnt work, is it would be absolutly immpossible for the 2 sides to agree on who gets what part of the area. Both sides obviouslly want Jeruselem, and there are many other places, were it would be impossible for either side to compromise.

Suice bombers, are far from insane. If you get into there mindset it makes perfect sense actually. First of all, they''ve been taught since the day they were born, doing it will get them into heaven. Secondly, they live in so much fear, that many wish to commit suicide, palistinians for the most part live an absolutly horrible life. But instead of doing this, they bomb the Israeli's, and it's not designed to win the area back, it's designed to keep the Israeli citizens in constant fear. When you litterally cant walk 2 blocks down the street and not worry if someones going to blow up, then your life has taken a dramatic turn for the worse. So essentially suicide bombings, get them into heaven, end there horrible lives, and leave the other people living in constant fear, not that insane. Disgusting yes, insane no.

does jerusalem 'belong' to one of the countries right now? i mean is it part of israel or palestine? if it is, perhaps if it was made a neutral state of its own or something? then they could both visit it and not worry. or maybe whoever owns it right now wouldn't be willing to give it up i guess..

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 Izzy i think it was in their right not to accept the partition , and the war was totally justified , but as you said both parts should live there because i don't wanna imagine a total war anymore

yup, they also had a right to not accept the partition, and since war insued shortly afterwards (justifily so) they chose to risk the chance of winning the war and gaining more then the partition plan offered. but alas they ended up losing the war, weird part is they still think they have a legitamite claim to the land they just rightfully lost. its like going to las vegas putting in 5$ on the blackjack table in hopes of gaining more but ending up losing it, and then have the guts to actually demand your money back. doesnt make much sense. each choice you make has a outcome to it in the future and one must live up to those consequences, to bad the palestinian government didnt then, or now.

quote:

Originally posted by philby does jerusalem 'belong' to one of the countries right now?

jerusalem is a touchy subject among most israelis. right now, israel has complete control over -all- of jerusalem, however some inhabitants and neighbourhoods of east jerusalem are run by some palestinian orginization under the PLO which admisters their public welfare. most of those palestinians have, nor want an israeli citizenship and dont pay any taxes to israel.

i feel what should end up happening is palestinians gaining complete soverignty over east jerusalem, but israel keep its control over west jerusalem and all of ancient jerusalem (all of the 4 quarters). the way i look at it is that no israeli in their right mind would walk into an eastern jerusalem neighbourhood for fear of being lynched, mobbed or attacked (as ends up happening to jews who stray into those parts). so if no one is going to go there, what is the use of keeping it? its just a hinderence and national security threat.

unlike a lot of muslim and arab people , i am for the partage of Jerusalem , not because of the national security issues but mostly because of the 3 religions

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 unlike a lot of muslim and arab people , i am for the partage of Jerusalem , not because of the national security issues but mostly because of the 3 religions

wow so most muslim and arab people arent for partage, and i pressume they want all of jerusalem? i didnt know that (im being serious not sarcastic). i thought they would be wise enough not to want to deal with the jewish west jerusalem. btw im also agianst the idea of a third part controling jerusalem (mainly the UN) or the idea of a neutral area, those are highly unlikely to solve any problems but rather raise more. parting is the obvious soltions the tough question will be exactly where the line is drawn. along what street and what alley and such

Izzy most jewish people want ALL jerusalem for themselves and most muslim people want ALL jerusalem for themselves too

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 Izzy most jewish people want ALL jerusalem for themselves and most muslim people want ALL jerusalem for themselves too

honestly taha, i didnt know most muslim want ALL of jerusalem (including the west). however most of the polls i've seen in israel have put it about 50% of the jews want ALL of jerusalem +- about 10% depending on the pole and the time taken

they want the whole place too that's why

Even if both sides didn't want all of Jerusalem(which they do), they'd never be able to sit down and split it in such a way that theere both happy. There's just too many important religious area's right next to each other, and both sides are way too stuborn to comprimise anyhow.

quote:

Originally posted by guetag in jordan 70% of the population are Palestinians!! and if the arab countries like iraq give them bombs why they don't give them food? medicines?

just to let u know that people in iraq are dying of starvation and lack of medecines ...

honestly, guetag brings up two good point.

1) why is iraq paying for terror and not for the good of its own people
2) why has no other arab country helped with the palestinian refugee problem

let me get into more detail about point 2.
there have been palestinian refugees since 1948 that live outside of israel and have not been given any rigths by the country they are living in. to me it seems like the arab countries refuse to take asylum of the refugees because in their minds it keeps the issue of the palestanian struggle to attain their now unattainable land in israel (and i mean israel proper). for freeks shake to be a refugee for over 54 years must mean that your kids, are born refugees and even thier kids are born refugees... i've never heard of such a crazy case of refugees not being given asylum anywhere and for that long of a time.

---edit---
btw geutag try keeping your emotions down and keep this argument or debate toned down and cool. you bring up some good points but dont be so agressive

My (ingorant) solution for the middle east

First, transport all the people from the middle east to Antartica. Then nuke the entire region so it's uninhabitable for a 100 years. Have a hundred year "cooling off" period where the Israelis and Arabs have time to reflect upon their past, present and future actions and go through marriage counseling. Then reintroduce the indigenous populations back to their respective land. Rinse and repeat as needed ...

UNITED STATES STOP SUPPORTING ISRAEL

the fittest will survive, let animal kill animal

Jehovah will destroy the corrupt governments their offspring and their adherents

mankind will evolve into the peaceful, cerebral race of the vulcans, and will cross bread with them in the future producing peaceful spacefaring liberals

supporting israel is like supporting animals rights, humanity, justice, and peace all at the same time -- dont give it a second thought

Nothing will change through this regime, both sides are indignant that they are the beneficiaries of wrongdoing. The Palestinians vehemently hate Sharon (and with good reason) A regime that supports extrajudicial killings in the name of �justice� will not achieve peace

The Palestinian youth have been indoctrinated into immoral acts of terrorism, and if anyone here grew up under those circumstances, you would joyfully participate.

Terrorist / Freedom Fighter, its a matter of perspective, how many terrorists have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize?

Why is state sponsored terrorism any different?

tathi, i appreciate your balanced view. if only more person's were open to the sort of clearheadedness that you just displayed

can i pick Turkey? i dont like israel or palastine.

btw Eisbaer your signature is ironic, seeing how your avatar is art

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