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Au contraire. I remember well the era when you could walk into a Tesco and find trance mix compilations side-by-side with Now That's What I Call Music 45. There were two Tiesto tracks on the first mix CD I ever bought when I was 13. He was a figurehead of trance at its most commercial. The notion that he was as respected as the likes of Jeff Mills, Andrew Weatherall or Laurent Garnier is risible.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Dj's sell out because they can. You realize that Guetta was Dj'ing for 20 years before he made a conscious decision to take advantage of a scene that was ripe. Same like Tiesto - you really think he loved EDM so much it made him abandon the race sound he was so famous for? Same with SHM.

As Woony mentioned, it's a bigger picture. Many producers got tired of the sound they were doing and just moved on - whether to something more "commercial" or to different styles altogether.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Au contraire. I remember well the era when you could walk into a Tesco and find trance mix compilations side-by-side with Now That's What I Call Music 45.

So lets say we take the anecdote as factual, you're confirming the point, NTWICM 45 was released in......wait for it... mid 2000 - and as I said was the point that Tiesto had sold out. In fact by 1999, the scene was dying, all the weekly trance clubs were closing apart from a few hangons up north and MoS and by 2001 it was all but dead.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J There were two Tiesto tracks on the first mix CD I ever bought when I was 13. He was a figurehead of trance at its most commercial. The notion that he was as respected as the likes of Jeff Mills, Andrew Weatherall or Laurent Garnier is risible.

He became the figurehead of commercial dance music, but for the "golden age" of trance he was well liked and I would go as far as to say respected. It's a little silly to try to compare him to Mills or Laurent garnier but I think you know that.

I know it's cool to bash that ilk now, but it's a little rich given that he was playing alongside Sasha, BT et al in their prime.

Again, I really have no dog in the race of defending him but given that you were 13 in what, 2000? 2001? and never saw or hear Tiesto in a club, you're really talking about a time that you have no personal reference for. In fact, go get some old copies of Mixmag or flyers for events of the time and you'll see that tiesto wasn't the commercial vehicle he later became.

The point I was making is that even in it's "golden age", Tiesto was playing stuff that was pretty damn commercial in the grand scheme of things (ie. no detroit techno). A lot of people back then thought stuff like the Magik Muzik mixes was the most commercial, sell-out dance music ever.

If you look at for example Laidback Luke, who went from a fairly underground techno producer to EDM, his progression is much less natural than Tiesto's. At least in his trance phase I don't know if he ever made a conscious decision to change his sound he just naturally progressed that way as he got bigger. Ask anyone who isn't a trance fan if there's a big difference in cheesy-ness between mid/late 90s and early 2000s euro-trance and they'll probably shrug.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN He became the figurehead of commercial dance music, but for the "golden age" of trance he was well liked and I would go as far as to say respected. It's a little silly to try to compare him to Mills or Laurent garnier but I think you know that.

Well, you did say:

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Tiesto, his later sellout notwithstanding, was as respected at one point as any other big name in the dance music.

As far as I'm aware, Tiesto wasn't doing anything radically different in 1998-1999 to what he was doing in 2000-2002. Certainly all his tracklists, mix CDs and live sets look like exactly the same kind of commercial supermarket trance right through that spell.

From everything I've read, heard and listened to from that era, my impression is firmly that trance fans were convinced they were the centre of clubbing cool in that era, but every other scene was face-palming hard. An enduring affliction of trance fans, it seems.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You're talking bullshit, as ever, IGK. There are countless DJs, musicians and people of all creative paths who've managed to maintain what originally made them great for decades without going to shit. Their style might change with the times, but that doesn't automatically equate to becoming more calculatingly accessible. There's nothing more annoying than a DJ or producer or anyone who's creative output you used to revere and rely upon blatantly selling themselves down the river and descending into shit. Some people just lose their touch and that's understandable because everyone is human, but when someone capable of greatness willingly waters themselves down to make more cash (when they weren't exactly broke to begin with) you have lost a source of musical joy for no better reason than greed. Granted, none of the DJs being discussed in this thread were any good to begin with and nor were they well-respected, but that's Woony's argument and nothing to do with yours.

I spend my time enjoying the music I like instead of bitterly complaining that someone sold out. I don't use music to enhance my status or identity. It's the highest form of ignorance as a spectator to presume your opinion or taste has any significance outside of yourself. You just come off as an arrogant self important ass.

Im here to argue about Tiesto

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Originally posted by MSZ Im here to argue about Tiesto

I don't even know why I'm defending him.

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Originally posted by Jon_Snow I spend my time enjoying the music I like instead of bitterly complaining that someone sold out. I don't use music to enhance my status or identity. It's the highest form of ignorance as a spectator to presume your opinion or taste has any significance outside of yourself. You just come off as an arrogant self important ass.

Have to agree.

Attachment to an artist will end up pissing you off in the future, unless they just die before what you liked about them changes, or your tastes change.

I used to get all militant about EDM and other music and throw out the sell-out bombs and all that crap, but I grew up and realized that there are about a billion different artists out there and if I don't like the direction of an artist I previously enjoyed, no biggie, I find new stuff to enjoy.

And while I frequently find your posts amusing, System-J, you come across as militant about music.

Shit sounds different to different people. All musicians that have audiences have a certain amount of talent, what they choose to do with that talent is up to them and them alone, and doesn't make the music I once enjoyed bad.

The notion that an artist that influenced you went on to become mega rich and apply their talents elsewhere is an affront to music and their potential is petty. Maybe their true talent was working with other people, organizing projects, seeing talent in others, spotting trends or in rare cases they just felt like doing Jesus poses for pictures.

Chances are fans of music don't personally know the ambitions, desires or the hidden talents of the artists they love.

Also, priorities change. Devoting your entire life to pleasing an existing fan base will take an enormous toll, and for DJs that you consider "wealthy" that went on to an easier path, well you probably have no idea what it's like to devote a huge part of your life to pleasing small groups of people in dozens of countries. They have to travel, please people, travel, worry about their girlfriends getting jealous and banging stock brokers, travel, and all of a sudden that perceived wealth that we thought they had doesn't seem as significant because they've fucked themselves in all manner of ways.

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Originally posted by Alex I used to get all militant about EDM and other music and throw out the sell-out bombs and all that crap, but I grew up and realized that there are about a billion different artists out there and if I don't like the direction of an artist I previously enjoyed, no biggie, I find new stuff to enjoy.

It's so simple to do, isn't it? Oh wait...I guess one has to grow up, first.

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The notion that an artist that influenced you went on to become mega rich and apply their talents elsewhere is an affront to music and their potential is petty.

Thank you. That's the most fitting word that describes it.

I don't know if it's simple, actually. I still love music, and am always on the lookout for good stuff, but I just don't get bothered by what I used to get bothered by.

i actually enjoy shaming people with bad musical, fashion, food tastes. making them feel inferior brings out the best in me. i was never really big on trance i only signed on to this website because i thought it was train addict .com . i used to like trains

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Originally posted by Alex I don't know if it's simple, actually. I still love music, and am always on the lookout for good stuff, but I just don't get bothered by what I used to get bothered by.

I don't mean finding new good stuff, but rather not be bothered by petty nonsense.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred I don't mean finding new good stuff, but rather not be bothered by petty nonsense.

Oh ok.

Yeah.

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Originally posted by Jon_Snow I spend my time enjoying the music I like instead of bitterly complaining that someone sold out. I don't use music to enhance my status or identity. It's the highest form of ignorance as a spectator to presume your opinion or taste has any significance outside of yourself. You just come off as an arrogant self important ass.

Maybe if I ever saw you make a single post about music I'd buy into this self-congratulation. You spend most of your time on TA pulling down other people and psycho-analysing their faults while revealing as little as possible about your own life, so this idea you're some ego-less higher being is most amusing.

You also seem to miss the point spectacularly, willfully even. The irritation with someone selling out is that someone whose music you love no longer makes the thing that gives you so much joy. You can spew about as much hand-wringing about "Well, maybe they enjoy making 3 minute pop songs" as you like, but like RANN says, it's pure naivety. It's exceptionally clear when it's done calculatingly, and it's heart-breaking because it's such a shit reason to deprive you of great music.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Maybe if I ever saw you make a single post about music I'd buy into this self-congratulation. You spend most of your time on TA pulling down other people and psycho-analysing their faults while revealing as little as possible about your own life, so this idea you're some ego-less higher being is most amusing.

You have a point, although I don't think his intention was to compare egos.

Militant music is where it's at, though.

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Originally posted by Alex I used to get all militant about EDM and other music and throw out the sell-out bombs and all that crap, but I grew up and realized that there are about a billion different artists out there and if I don't like the direction of an artist I previously enjoyed, no biggie, I find new stuff to enjoy.

I don't know. This just seems a variation of the thin-skinned logic that nobody should ever criticise an artist for anything, that only positive opinions should be allowed.

I don't really care if I'm perceived as militant or snobbish. There's music I love and music I hate and I'm not censoring that to protect the feelings of precious souls in cyberspace. Plenty of people line up to kick music that I love. It's happened plenty of times on this forum and you'll never see me crying about it. I'll disagree, I'll defend something, but I won't ever try and censor the very act of criticism.

To get away from the meta-critic debate, as much fun as I find that, I actually would consider it fair to say that Tiesto was relatively 'underground' (in a sense) 1995-1998. I'm a big fan of the Guardian Angel mix comps he put out in those years - the programming is rather poor, but the track selection is quite good. There's a lot of stuff on those mixes that you'd be hard pressed to find on other mix comps. I believe this was the time he was working in a record store, before he had many (any?) international residencies. It's really around 97/98 when he left Basic Beat and started up Black Hole that his work starts to become much more commercial/popular, according to my reading of events.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I don't know. This just seems a variation of the thin-skinned logic that nobody should ever criticise an artist for anything, that only positive opinions should be allowed.

You seemed to have missed his point entirely.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred You seemed to have missed his point entirely.

No, that's clearly his underlying attitude. You wouldn't consider frustration with an artist's stylistic devolution to be something negative unless you perceive it to be "militant" - an attack, in other words, something threatening. The subtext here is clear, which is why IGK derives some disparaging character judgement from something as simple as noting an artist is now in it for the money. People are objecting because they feel this criticism of artists is also in some way a criticism of taste, a way of attacking or judging others. That's what this is all about.

I don't consider "Well, there's plenty more fish in the sea! Just listen to something else!" a worthwhile rebuttal to the points I've made prior. Fair enough if you can just pick up and drop stuff like that, but I think a big part of being a music fan is getting obsessed with stuff, getting passionately into it. And if you've ever gone to see a DJ you previously loved and witnessed them play a set of pure dogshit, wasting your money, your night out, your pent-up excitement... try telling yourself "Oh well, I'll just listen to someone else!" in that moment.

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Originally posted by Lews To get away from the meta-critic debate, as much fun as I find that, I actually would consider it fair to say that Tiesto was relatively 'underground' (in a sense) 1995-1998. I'm a big fan of the Guardian Angel mix comps he put out in those years - the programming is rather poor, but the track selection is quite good. There's a lot of stuff on those mixes that you'd be hard pressed to find on other mix comps. I believe this was the time he was working in a record store, before he had many (any?) international residencies. It's really around 97/98 when he left Basic Beat and started up Black Hole that his work starts to become much more commercial/popular, according to my reading of events.

You're right.
He started dj-ing in 1984, three evenings a week. Disco back then. He still knows where he came from, cleaning the toilets after he dj-ed in the club. So before trance he played other genres for over 10 years.
His commercial breakthrough was after Innercity at 20th February 1999. Even in Holland Tiesto wasn't very known. He actually was 'discovered' by Lars Holte from Norway which is a nice story.
Tiesto made 500 copies of his first Forbidden Paradise compilation with his phone number at the back because nobody wanted to release it. So he started his label with Arny Bink. Then Lars Holte called as he wanted 10,000 copies of the album. He sold all of them in Norway within a month.

Tiesto met Lars Holte again after 12 years last month after winning a Dutch award: part is in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...Q3laqSryfY#t=94

I never blamed him for leaving trance as he just wants to be at the top whatever he thinks that top is. I also never got the impression he isn't liking what he's doing and money is the only drive. Not that I care that much if it was though.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No, that's clearly his underlying attitude.

I don't think so, but perhaps he'll reply.

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People are objecting because they feel this criticism of artists is also in some way a criticism of taste, a way of attacking or judging others. That's what this is all about.

I don't know what people are objecting, but Alex seemed simply to make a casual observation - IGK was making a subjective observation about your character - not about taste, as far as I can tell. I certainly don't care what artists you criticize - or don't, for that matter - and I doubt Alex cares, either. I don't think that was the point being made here.

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I don't consider "Well, there's plenty more fish in the sea! Just listen to something else!" a worthwhile rebuttal to the points I've made prior.

Again, you seem to think Alex is arguing with you, but he wasn't.

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Fair enough if you can just pick up and drop stuff like that, but I think a big part of being a music fan is getting obsessed with stuff, getting passionately into it.

I used to be more passionate about music when I was younger, now it's just something I like - if I don't, I don't listen to it - there's been far too many artists by now that have either "sold out" or moved on to producing in other genres, which, granted is sometimes a shame - I agree - but it's gotten to be the rule, rather than the exception, lately, so I don't make a fuss about it. And honestly, music isn't that important in my life that I wax all emotional when a dj or producer no longer plays the style I'm interested in.

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And if you've ever gone to see a DJ you previously loved and witnessed them play a set of pure dogshit, wasting your money, your night out, your pent-up excitement... try telling yourself "Oh well, I'll just listen to someone else!" in that moment.

Hey, I can see your disappointment, but not everyone here has those experiences anymore. That would make for a whole other discussion, entirely, I think.

Anyway, as typical in the COR, the discussion has digressed into attacks, rebuttals, and pointing out each other's foibles, nothing new. I don't mind, this is sometimes fun, but I think the problem in this discussion is mutual misunderstanding between you guys.

If Alex wants to distance himself from IGK I'm sure he's capable of doing it himself. All I know is he quoted the guy saying "You just come off as an arrogant self important ass" and then said "I agree", before going on to characterise my attitude as "militant".

I really, really can't be bothered defining what constitutes "arguing", either.

Well, as I said, it's come down to pointing out each other's foibles, rather than sticking to the topic at hand. The bottom line is, we all have character faults - it doesn't make you necessarily better or worse.

Some people - like yourself - may make a fuss about the thing me and Alex agreed are petty, and some (IGK, Alex, etc.) don't. That's as simple as that.

I really, really can't stand seeing you misplace quotation marks, anymore, either!

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred I really, really can't stand seeing you misplace quotation marks, anymore, either!

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/ed...quotation-marks

British English. Kiss my arse.

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